Switching up my edc

[Anarax]

I don't share the common phobia of snakes, so I wouldn't likely kill a snake unless it were venomous and I couldn't simply move away from it.

That said, the birdshot would be loaded into the first chamber to be fired, and I'd make sure when I closed the cylinder that revolvers revolve BEFORE firing.

In the case of larger animals (we have a lot of fox and coyote in our neighborhood, and things like bear and cougar are possible), the noise (and minor sting) from the first round has a good chance of convincing the animal that I am not prey. If not, the follow up .45 Colt rounds add more power to my argument. For those larger animals, I'd actually prefer to carry a .44 Magnum, Desert Eagle 50AE, or the S&W 500 Magnum. But I do not own any of those.

The other use for this load out is close quarters self defense. As an example, a car jacking. The bad guy is going to be right there. If they aren't, I can probably just drive away. In this case, the Judge is carrying 2 rounds of Winchester PDX shotshell. These shells have 16 birdshot pellets behind 4 plated disks. At the range I'm talking about, those will all land in an area of just a couple inches. There is good penetration from the disks, sting from the pellets, and the noise to back them off a step or two, but minimal precision is required. And there's still the 45 Colt.

Thank you for the thoughtful and thorough answers.

You do you, but I do not personally care for the shotgun as a home defense weapon.

The size makes it much more difficult to move through a house, especially if you prefer not to reveal your position. Holding the weapon vertically will mitigate this to some degree, but at the cost of taking longer to get the muzzle on target. One of the bullpup designs would also help, and if I were to choose a shotgun, it would be a bullpup.

Typical shotgun as very rounds limited, and unless you're Jerry Miculek, you're probably not going to reload them quickly. There are some bullpups (such as the KSG) that have twin 6 round magazines. Changing between them is as easy as a magazine swap. And the number of rounds isn't usually going to be an issue.

Shotguns also have a limited range. The further away the target, the more spread. In a home defense scenario, this equals a larger chance of hitting unintended targets.

Then there is the recoil. You're never going to double tap a shotgun. And the smaller your pellets, the less likely you are to achieve a quick end to the threat, which makes the rapid follow up shot important. Slugs do help with this, since they decrease the need for a follow up shot.

And of course, there's the noise. Shooting any firearm in a room is painful and can cause permanent hearing loss. My home defense gun is suppressed, the fix this. That makes it longer than most handguns, but it's still usable one handed, leaving the other hand free for things like doors.

I've had this conservations with several friends as well. The shotgun being the end all and be all of home defense weapons, I tried to explain the pros and cons of both. I think the greatest home defense weapon is being Jerry Miculek when your home is broken into

 

[Dirty Dog]

Thank you for the thoughtful and thorough answers.

I've had this conservations with several friends as well. The shotgun being the end all and be all of home defense weapons, I tried to explain the pros and cons of both. I think the greatest home defense weapon is being Jerry Miculek when your home is broken into

I've been thinking about this more, and I think there are some viable options I neglected to mention.

The newer mini shells can do an excellent job of addressing recoil and capacity concerns, and at home defense range they will be effective. Especially the slugs. The KSG I referred to in my post can hold up to 41 mini shells. With that sort of capacity, it would be tempting to load one tube with buckshot, to minimize the need for precision, and the other with slugs, to maximize tissue destruction.

Although I do not have any personal experience with them, there have been reports that the mini shells do not feed well, with a number of reports indicating a failure to feed as high as 20%. That is, of course, totally unacceptable for a defensive weapon, but there is certainly potential.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This thread has led to me putting more time thinking and researching. I think that's good.

The capacity issue can be addressed by a design that uses multiple magazines. Some notable solutions:

The Kel-Tec KSG Bullpup in either 18.5" or SBS form. These are pump action, dual tube designs. They are also the only option that is known to handle the mini shells reliably. My choice would be the SBS version. This is unfortunate, because I think the mini shells are the perfect round for a home defense shotgun.

The Panzer Arms BP12 Bullpup. This is an AR-style design, with 5 & 10 round magazines readily available. The Bullpup design moves the magazine way back, which means changes are typically going to be a bit slower than a conventional AR layout, and quite a bit slower than a handgun. There does not appear to be an SBS version.

The SRM Arms Model 1216 has a conventional layout, so it's longer than the Bullpup designs, and far longer than the KSG SBS. The KSG with a suppressor will be shorter than the SRM M1216 without. What it does have is a unique 16 round 4 tube revolver magazine, for a 16+1 capacity. When a tube is empty, the bolt locks open. You rotate the tube (which seems quite easy). When a loaded tube moves under the action, the bolt automatically loads the round. Changing magazines would take about as long as the Panzer. You can carry extra magazines, but they're $200 each.

The Fostech Origin 12 is widely considered the fastest firing semi-auto shotgun in the world. It is a conventional AR-style layout and is available in SBS form. Magazines up to a 30 round drum are available.

Prices vary wildly. The KSG can be found for $900. The Fostech will set you back $3100.

For me, I would personally go with the KSG SBS with a SilencerCo Salvo 12, loaded with the mini shells. The Fostech SBS with the same suppressor would be my second choice, but that's getting back to the 'too bulky' problem.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

This thread has led to me putting more time thinking and researching. I think that's good.

The capacity issue can be addressed by a design that uses multiple magazines. Some notable solutions:

The Kel-Tec KSG Bullpup in either 18.5" or SBS form. These are pump action, dual tube designs. They are also the only option that is known to handle the mini shells reliably. My choice would be the SBS version. This is unfortunate, because I think the mini shells are the perfect round for a home defense shotgun.

The Panzer Arms BP12 Bullpup. This is an AR-style design, with 5 & 10 round magazines readily available. The Bullpup design moves the magazine way back, which means changes are typically going to be a bit slower than a conventional AR layout, and quite a bit slower than a handgun. There does not appear to be an SBS version.

The SRM Arms Model 1216 has a conventional layout, so it's longer than the Bullpup designs, and far longer than the KSG SBS. The KSG with a suppressor will be shorter than the SRM M1216 without. What it does have is a unique 16 round 4 tube revolver magazine, for a 16+1 capacity. When a tube is empty, the bolt locks open. You rotate the tube (which seems quite easy). When a loaded tube moves under the action, the bolt automatically loads the round. Changing magazines would take about as long as the Panzer. You can carry extra magazines, but they're $200 each.

The Fostech Origin 12 is widely considered the fastest firing semi-auto shotgun in the world. It is a conventional AR-style layout and is available in SBS form. Magazines up to a 30 round drum are available.

Prices vary wildly. The KSG can be found for $900. The Fostech will set you back $3100.

For me, I would personally go with the KSG SBS with a SilencerCo Salvo 12, loaded with the mini shells. The Fostech SBS with the same suppressor would be my second choice, but that's getting back to the 'too bulky' problem.

I think it's panzer but not sure, saw a benelli m4 clone from a company think it was panzer, it's like 300 bucks and great reviews. I'd get one if I had disposable income lol. For a 300 dollar shotgun thats almost identical to an m4 it's a steal

 

[Jared Traveler]

You don't need a fancy gun or a large capacity weapon to effectively defend your home. What you have in the closet already will probably get it done. The magic can't be purchased with a credit card. It comes with a calm, mature mind, to go through the target engagement sequence. Followed up by deliberate accurate aim.

It's so simple that it can seems complicated. As Lt. Jeff Cooper said, "You are only outgunned if you miss." I would also add if you are mentally unpredared and hesitate. You will not find the answer at a gun store.

 

[jmf552]

You don't need a fancy gun or a large capacity weapon to effectively defend your home. What you have in the closet already will probably get it done. The magic can't be purchased with a credit card. It comes with a calm, mature mind, to go through the target engagement sequence. Followed up by deliberate accurate aim.

It's so simple that it can seems complicated. As Lt. Jeff Cooper said, "You are only outgunned if you miss." I would also add if you are mentally unpredared and hesitate. You will not find the answer at a gun store.

I would say yes and no to that. I agree that the mental aspects and the accuracy are of paramount importance. But if you what you have the closet is a single shot .22, and there are two attackers, it may not be enough. And if you keep your home defense gun in a closet, it is neither readily available or safely stored.

Every year, many people successfully defend themselves with guns, and most of them don't know what a "target engagement sequence" is.

BTW, while Jeff Cooper was mostly a 1911 guy, later in life he took a liking to high cap guns like the BHP and the CZ-75. And he had input to the design of the Bren Ten, that went on to be Crockett's fancy gun in "Miami Vice." So apparently he thought there was some merit to hardware.

 

[jmf552]

I've been thinking about this more, and I think there are some viable options I neglected to mention.

The newer mini shells can do an excellent job of addressing recoil and capacity concerns, and at home defense range they will be effective. Especially the slugs. The KSG I referred to in my post can hold up to 41 mini shells. With that sort of capacity, it would be tempting to load one tube with buckshot, to minimize the need for precision, and the other with slugs, to maximize tissue destruction.

Although I do not have any personal experience with them, there have been reports that the mini shells do not feed well, with a number of reports indicating a failure to feed as high as 20%. That is, of course, totally unacceptable for a defensive weapon, but there is certainly potential.

That is my big concern about mini-shells: reliability. I would rather have 7 shells that feed and fire reliably than a gun with 41 shells in it that has jammed.

I've even had reliability issues with full-size low brass shells in a high-quality pump. I've read articles from "experts" saying there is no functional difference between high and low brass, but with some guns there is.

 

[drop bear]

Speaking of EDC I picked up a waterproof bush hat today.

So now I have a dry and sun protected head.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I would say yes and no to that. I agree that the mental aspects and the accuracy are of paramount importance. But if you what you have the closet is a single shot .22, and there are two attackers, it may not be enough. And if you keep your home defense gun in a closet, it is neither readily available or safely stored.

Every year, many people successfully defend themselves with guns, and most of them don't know what a "target engagement sequence" is.

BTW, while Jeff Cooper was mostly a 1911 guy, later in life he took a liking to high cap guns like the BHP and the CZ-75. And he had input to the design of the Bren Ten, that went on to be Crockett's fancy gun in "Miami Vice." So apparently he thought there was some merit to hardware.

Jmf552, thank you for your response. I suspect we are not far off in agreement in this. That is why I said it will "probably get it done". I would also want a .45 ACP over a .22lr. In fact I would rather have a .223 over a .45 ACP, of course.

But the point is, a lot of gun people know all about the "wiz bang delta attachment", combined with the "Laser/flashlight combo" and the "Zombie Death Round " but you are right, because they don't know what a proper target engagement sequence is, and that's the problem.

Too much time researching "fear gear" purchase, not enough time developing the basics, basics that will 99 times out of 100 win fights. Too much time trying to figure out the right gun, or the right grip modification, or the right sight upgrade, not enough time practicing how to grip and shoot. Definitely not enough time figuring out how to make reasonable decisions and stay calm under extreme, acute stress.

There is a place for consideration on bullet design, round capacity, and weapon choice. But those are relatively straight forward, simple decisions, not an endless quest for the holly grail of guns and gear that give you an advantage.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Speaking of EDC I picked up a waterproof bush hat today.

So now I have a dry and sun protected head.

Very "Tactical"

 

[drop bear]

Very "Tactical"

I am suprised waterproof bush hats aren't more of a thing in the tactical niche.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I am suprised waterproof bush hats aren't more of a thing in the tactical niche.

It covers up the "tactical haircut."

 

[drop bear]

It covers up the "tactical haircut."

Everyone knows that real operators wear bush hats.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Everyone knows that real operators wear bush hats.

Do you even Operate Bro!

 

[drop bear]

Do you even Operate Bro!

No but I can smell like one.

I'm on a boat.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That is my big concern about mini-shells: reliability. I would rather have 7 shells that feed and fire reliably than a gun with 41 shells in it that has jammed.

Which is why research and range time are important. Apparently there are mods which allow some models to work reliably with mini shells, but the KSG is apparently the only gun that fires them reliably out of the box.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

Jmf552, thank you for your response. I suspect we are not far off in agreement in this. That is why I said it will "probably get it done". I would also want a .45 ACP over a .22lr. In fact I would rather have a .223 over a .45 ACP, of course.

But the point is, a lot of gun people know all about the "wiz bang delta attachment", combined with the "Laser/flashlight combo" and the "Zombie Death Round " but you are right, because they don't know what a proper target engagement sequence is, and that's the problem.

Too much time researching "fear gear" purchase, not enough time developing the basics, basics that will 99 times out of 100 win fights. Too much time trying to figure out the right gun, or the right grip modification, or the right sight upgrade, not enough time practicing how to grip and shoot. Definitely not enough time figuring out how to make reasonable decisions and stay calm under extreme, acute stress.

There is a place for consideration on bullet design, round capacity, and weapon choice. But those are relatively straight forward, simple decisions, not an endless quest for the holly grail of guns and gear that give you an advantage.

I agree with this post and the other post about "use what you got already" I see lots of people focusing on tricking their gear out but not practicing or taking training classes or courses.

 

[Jinho]

Jmf552, thank you for your response. I suspect we are not far off in agreement in this. That is why I said it will "probably get it done". I would also want a .45 ACP over a .22lr. In fact I would rather have a .223 over a .45 ACP, of course.

But the point is, a lot of gun people know all about the "wiz bang delta attachment", combined with the "Laser/flashlight combo" and the "Zombie Death Round " but you are right, because they don't know what a proper target engagement sequence is, and that's the problem.

Too much time researching "fear gear" purchase, not enough time developing the basics, basics that will 99 times out of 100 win fights. Too much time trying to figure out the right gun, or the right grip modification, or the right sight upgrade, not enough time practicing how to grip and shoot. Definitely not enough time figuring out how to make reasonable decisions and stay calm under extreme, acute stress.

There is a place for consideration on bullet design, round capacity, and weapon choice. But those are relatively straight forward, simple decisions, not an endless quest for the holly grail of guns and gear that give you an advantage.

Yep, there are kinda a lot of focus on add-ons right now. Like hell, I know a handful of folks personally that have a "x-mas tree" handguns on them but when I asked one on how many rounds had he put through his main, he told me "ahh, like 150, maybe 200". He had this gun for a year at least, maybe more... I was like "huh?!".
I've stopped counting my G43x after like 2k rounds which was ages ago, attended multiple training drills(there are a few ranges that constantly invite new instructors).
It's a bit baffling when people invest THIS much funds into their firearm but skip practice as if all you need is a whole bunch of fancy stuff and not actual skill in handling your gun...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yep, there are kinda a lot of focus on add-ons right now. Like hell, I know a handful of folks personally that have a "x-mas tree" handguns on them but

Most of my guns, especially my carry guns, are pretty basic. They get fiber optic sights and a trigger job, but that's about it for most of them. My 1911 models also get modified so they can be carried with the hammer down, but still cocked. But my bedside gun is a bit more elaborate. It's a Glock 41 with an extended barrel, 2lb trigger, TLR laser/light, fiber optic sights, and a SilencerCo Osprey.

when I asked one on how many rounds had he put through his main, he told me "ahh, like 150, maybe 200". He had this gun for a year at least, maybe more... I was like "huh?!".

I have no idea how many rounds I've put through my various guns. We go to the range at least once a month, usually more. I fire around 500 rounds each time. So... lots.

It's a bit baffling when people invest THIS much funds into their firearm but skip practice as if all you need is a whole bunch of fancy stuff and not actual skill in handling your gun...

Shooting targets is just plain fun. That's partly why 99.99% (that's not hyperbole, it's what the numbers actually show) of the guns in the US are never used for anything else.

 

[jmf552]

Jmf552, thank you for your response. I suspect we are not far off in agreement in this. That is why I said it will "probably get it done". I would also want a .45 ACP over a .22lr. In fact I would rather have a .223 over a .45 ACP, of course.

But the point is, a lot of gun people know all about the "wiz bang delta attachment", combined with the "Laser/flashlight combo" and the "Zombie Death Round " but you are right, because they don't know what a proper target engagement sequence is, and that's the problem.

Too much time researching "fear gear" purchase, not enough time developing the basics, basics that will 99 times out of 100 win fights. Too much time trying to figure out the right gun, or the right grip modification, or the right sight upgrade, not enough time practicing how to grip and shoot. Definitely not enough time figuring out how to make reasonable decisions and stay calm under extreme, acute stress.

There is a place for consideration on bullet design, round capacity, and weapon choice. But those are relatively straight forward, simple decisions, not an endless quest for the holly grail of guns and gear that give you an advantage.

I think this kind of thing is common in "equipment intensive" activities. Look at what people spend on golf clubs! Probably more than they spend on instruction from a pro. For a lot of people, not all, guns and related gear is only partially practical. A large part of it is really a hobby, although some won't admit it. So the equipment is part of the fun. But it relates to training because a segment of the hobbyists will take training because they find it fun or think it's cool.

I've been shooting for over 50 years, mostly because I liked it. I competed with the 1911 and the M1 Garand on a Navy team. As a civilian, I took a lot of tactical training, not because it was work related, or I felt I was in danger, but because I could and because I liked it. Now I am older and I don't enjoy it as much as I used to, don't have as much access as I used to and can't afford it like I used to. But I still look at new guns. I changed up my EDC recently from a snubby to a P365. I did take a couple of lessons with it from a shooting instructor, but that is probably all I will do, other than laser training at home.

Bottom line is training is often motivated by enjoyment or job requirements if you are in LE or security. Outside of that, IMHO a lot of training nowadays is not enjoyable for beginners.