Concealed Carry and Martial Arts.

[Tgace]

Well, yeaha, but practice makes permanent......and if all people have to practice (and become proficient at) is the same "requalification," then that becomes all they're competent at....and, in many cases, it's not enough...not even close.

(There's a few things Jim Grover and I disagree with ,philosophically, but this is the kind of thing I'm talking about)

Sure. But my statement is more oriented at the folks who will shell out 1-2K for a yearly class taught by some former Tier 1 Operator and boast about how highly "trained" they are, but then they seldom practice the skills they paid all that $$ to learn.

Fiereams proficiency isnt really esoteric. Pretty much any quaified instructor is going to be teaching the same thing, just with their special flavor of "gung-ho" and personality. Yeah, the minutiae of things like tac reload vs emergency reload, yadda yadda my vary, but the bones of it are almost identical.

Once you have been taught the right skills, most people would be better off just practicing them vs looking for the next guru to give their money to.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sure. But my statement is more oriented at the folks who will shell out 1-2K for a yearly class taught by some former Tier 1 Operator and boast about how highly "trained" they are, but then they seldom practice the skills they paid all that $$ to learn.

Fiereams proficiency isnt really esoteric. Pretty much any quaified instructor is teaching the same thing (just with their special flavor of "gung-ho" and personality). Once you have been taught the right skills, most people would be better off just practicing them vs looking for the next guru to give their money to.

Same goes for martial arts seminars. Everybody wants to get their photo taken in a sweaty gi in a grip and grin with some famous martial artist. Who practices what they've learned, constantly, for the next dozen or so years? As most of us know, running through a scenario a few dozen times on a weekend conveys no level of mastery. Guns, martial arts, flower-arranging, etc.

 

[Tgace]

Same goes for martial arts seminars. Everybody wants to get their photo taken in a sweaty gi in a grip and grin with some famous martial artist. Who practices what they've learned, constantly, for the next dozen or so years? As most of us know, running through a scenario a few dozen times on a weekend conveys no level of mastery. Guns, martial arts, flower-arranging, etc.

Exactly the same.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

I did not have to draw from concealment-something that's essential, and requires training. There is also no training required for handgun retention, or any other essential close-quarters skills.

We've invited LEO's to many of our weapons seminars. Things our dojo trained regularly at our private range, like retention or scenario based stuff, seemed new to far too many of the professionals, who often had only done basic annual requals since they first got their badges. The fun thing was after teaching them some things, they let us play with some of their full auto toys at the police range. I was glad we were able to convey some additional skills to the guys who did show up. I know they have a tough job, and it's sad their departments don't offer more training to them.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Firearms are as much a part of the martial arts as swords, knives and the staff. They are a tool that one uses to either overcome an attacker or overcome an enemy (depending upon the circumstances). No martial arts instructor or peer should discourage lawful firearm ownership, or seeking out competent training if not offered at the school (I offered firearms training along with our martial arts training).

Several things to consider; first, many Sheriff's and Chiefs are encouraging the citizens within their county/city to arm themselves. Brevard county and Detroit are a couple of examples. There are multiple reasons for this. According to the Crime Prevention Research Center the number or CCW holders has nearly quadrupled since 2007. During this time:

• The number of concealed handgun permits is increasing at an ever-increasing rate. Over the past year, 1.7 million additional new permits have been issued—a 15.4% increase in one single year. This is the largest-ever single-year increase in the number of concealed handgun permits.

• 5.2% of the total adult population has a permit.

• Five states now have more than 10% of their adult population with concealed handgun permits.

• In ten states, a permit is no longer required to carry in all or virtually all of the state. This is a major reason why legal carrying handguns is growing so much faster than the number of permits.

• Since 2007, permits for women have increased by 270% and for men by 156%.

• Some evidence suggests that permit holding by minorities is increasing more than twice as fast as for whites.

• Between 2007 and 2014, murder rates have fallen from 5.6 to 4.2 (preliminary estimates) per 100,000. This represents a 25% drop in the murder rate at the same time that the percentage of the adult population with permits soared by 156%. Overall, violent crime also fell by 25 percent over that period of time.

• States with the largest increase in permits have seen the largest relative drops in murder rates.

• Concealed handgun permit holders are extremely law-abiding. In Florida and Texas, permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors or felonies at one-sixth the rate that police officers are convicted.

Black Friday of this year saw nearly 200,000 new firearm purchases and nationwide the number of CCW applications is up 70% over this time last year.

Of concern to the average citizen is the 'active shooter' situation. The numbers have increased:

Mass Shootings under the Last Five Presidents

Ronald Reagan: 1981-1989 (8 years) 11 mass shootings
Incidents with 8 or more deaths = 5

George H. W. Bush: 1989-1993 (4 years) 12 mass murders
Incidents with 8 or more deaths = 3

Bill Clinton: 1993-2001 (8 years) 23 mass murders
Incidents with 8 or more deaths = 4

George W. Bush: 2001-2009 (8 years) 20 mass murders
Incidents with 8 or more deaths = 5

Barrack H. Obama: 2009-2015 (in 7th year) 162 mass murders
Incidents with 8 or more deaths = 18

Laying aside politics, the point is that danger to the average citizen has increased dramatically. Added to the mix are potential and continued terrorist or lone wolf attacks. In a recent Al Jezeera survey over 80% of muslims responded that they support Jihad. Of muslims in America nearly 50% supported Jihad. Add this to the equation of normal criminals, EDP (emotionally disturbed people) that woke up hating the world, increase drug use and the situation hasn't gotten better.

In regards to muslims, I've lived in the M.E. and have family living there. It is a substantial threat to consider in terms of lone wolf and terrorist cells (which I know first-hand to exist in this country).

I've stated this before, but it bears repeating; an unarmed citizen is a victim-in-waiting. Some things can be overcome with H2H but some things cannot. As someone that has been in uniform for over 30 years the statement is true that when seconds count the police are minutes away. S.B. police had a response time of 4 minutes which is excellent. But in that 4 minutes 28 people were shot, 14 fatally. A citizen is the first line of defense as they are the ones in attendance on the scene. Everything else is reactionary.

If a person choses not to carry that is their right just as it is a right for those that do chose to carry. It is a responsibility to be taken seriously. But it is also a responsibility to not rely on others to do what you could/should be doing for yourself. Personal responsibility goes a long way.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

In medicine, there's the concept of "herd immunity", where all people are safer once a critical percentage of the population is immunized against an illness. Even if a few unprotected people catch the illness, it won't cause an epidemic to grow much.

This concept should also apply to defense against human threats as well. If a sufficient percentage of the populace is willing/able to defend against threats, there should be a general reduction of those threats, protecting the whole population, including those uninclinded to protect themselves.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sure. But my statement is more oriented at the folks who will shell out 1-2K for a yearly class taught by some former Tier 1 Operator and boast about how highly "trained" they are, but then they seldom practice the skills they paid all that $$ to learn.

Fiereams proficiency isnt really esoteric. Pretty much any quaified instructor is going to be teaching the same thing, just with their special flavor of "gung-ho" and personality. Yeah, the minutiae of things like tac reload vs emergency reload, yadda yadda my vary, but the bones of it are almost identical.

Once you have been taught the right skills, most people would be better off just practicing them vs looking for the next guru to give their money to.

This is so true!!!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm just going to say that politics doesn't belong here, and with that, I am done with this thread.

 

[elder999]

I'm just going to say that politics doesn't belong here, and with that, I am done with this thread.

erm..uhhh....what?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Bill, I do not think we have tipped into "politics" yet on this thread and would hope that you would continue to participate as we move forward.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm just going to say that politics doesn't belong here, and with that, I am done with this thread.

?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Saw in interesting piece on both Fox and CNN yesterday. Had to do with the number of Sheriffs that have come out urging their law-abiding citizenry to begin carrying a firearm as well as offering advance training. This is a very proactive approach and it's to be commended and applauded. As one Sheriff put it bluntly, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Simply logistics dictate that the average citizen is on scene long before first responders.

This brings up another point that should be discussed, though perhaps a bit of a thread drift so my apologies to the OP. But thought it worth tossing out for consideration. If it's prudent for the average, law-abiding citizen to be armed, and it is because they are on scene long before first responders it is also equally true that the average citizen should have BLS/CPR/AED training as well for the very same reason. The ability to take a live should be balanced with the ability to save a life.

Back on firearms, the news bits stated that the FBI is basically processing an application for CCW every two seconds. The only negative I heard in the bits was from some advocate stating we were going back to the 'wild west'. That is actually a very disingenuous talking point that has no basis in reality from the perspective of firearms related discussions. The term 'wild' west did not refer to firearms, it referred to the pioneer conditions of the time period i.e. they were taming the wilds in which they were living and building communities. From a firearm perspective the west was actually quite polite within the community. Sure, you had your Jesse James and Billy the Kid types but you've got that anywhere and everywhere. It was NOT like what Hollywood depicts in movies. As one of our founding fathers stated, "And armed society is a polite society". Stats and history bear that out.

From a martial arts perspective, if the art is focused on SD then it makes perfect sense to include this as a skill set. H2H has it's limitations and a firearm is a great equalizer.

Some additional information/links for consideration:

The Armed Citizen

 

[Tgace]

?

I'm thinking he intended to post on a different thread. BTDT.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This brings up another point that should be discussed, though perhaps a bit of a thread drift so my apologies to the OP. But thought it worth tossing out for consideration. If it's prudent for the average, law-abiding citizen to be armed, and it is because they are on scene long before first responders it is also equally true that the average citizen should have BLS/CPR/AED training as well for the very same reason. The ability to take a live should be balanced with the ability to save a life.

From a martial arts perspective, if the art is focused on SD then it makes perfect sense to include this as a skill set. H2H has it's limitations and a firearm is a great equalizer.

Absolutely agree, BLS/CPR/AED is excellent training for the average citizen'

I also agree that if a systems main focus is personal protection then firearms should be in the skill set.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Absolutely agree, BLS/CPR/AED is excellent training for the average citizen'

I also agree that if a systems main focus is personal protection then firearms should be in the skill set.

If a martial arts instructor was not trained (or well trained) in firearms it would be a rather easy matter to bring someone that was well trained (read: qualified instructor) into the school to offer additional training. Local LEO instructors or NRA instructors are usually readily available. It would serve several purposes; first it could bring added revenue into a school as it could be offered as a special class. Secondly it could easily be part of a larger, more comprehensive SD class/course offered by the school. SD isn't just buying a firearm and shooting it a few times. SD is home security, vehicle security, travel security etc of which a firearm is a 'part' but not the whole.

If the martial art instructor is also a firearm instructor then it's icing on top of the cake. As long as he/she is actually a qualified instructor and not just a hobbyist or recreational shooter. There is a difference.

I just taught four women this last Tuesday in preparation for their CCW course. All of them learned a lot and I was very proud of each of them. Very enthusiastic and gained proficiency very rapidly. And it gave them a sense of accomplishment, confidence and empowerment.

 

[lklawson]

I'm late to this party too. It's my own fault for spending most of my Forum time over on a gun forum where I'm a mod.

Third, I believe that carrying firearms changes the dynamics of any self-defense situation. Now, you must not only defend yourself, you must defend your weapon; by which I mean you must keep it from being taken from you.

Looking at the available evidence, this is fairly easily achieved by merely being willing to press the trigger. The available evidence seems to indicate that it's really quite hard for someone to affect a "gun disarm" while actively trying to not get shot.

Fourth, just like martial arts, carrying a weapon is worse than useless if you are not highly skilled and continue training with it. Buying a gun and chucking it in your pocket is not improving your chances of surviving a self-defense scenario. It's increasing the chances you'll shoot your dick off.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "highly skilled." Firearms generally take far less training time and require far less physicality to a given level of proficiency than most other weapons. Further, "expertise" isn't really required for effectiveness, merely a minimum level of proficiency to a certain standard. As an example, most Riflemen aren't rated at Expert but are still considered acceptably proficient after Basic Training.

Guns are not magic wands. You don't wave them around and things get better (although some have argued with me that they waved a gun around and things *did* get better, I think that's the exception rather than the rule).

While trying to avoid political entanglements, the available studies do indeed seem to indicate that merely displaying a firearm frequently can dissuade an attacker, but this is more because the attacker has a specific belief that a firearm is particularly dangerous and intimidating rather than realistic attributes of the firearm. That belief, as opposed to a more modest reality, is fostered by politics and pop-culture. The simple version is that there is a disproportionate number of people, including bad men, who think "guns are scary" just because they are guns.

I also think that most preppers or survivalists or self-defense experts and so on never seem to consider the self-defense scenarios they are MOST LIKELY to find themselves in. That is, we are far less likely to experience a nuclear detonation than we are a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, fire, mudslide, flood, or other force majeure.

Agreed. I've been saying this for years.

You might want to learn to reload, since once you run out of ammo, you have a nice metal stick, not a gun.

Metal sticks make pretty decent bludgeons.

It goes on and on. TEOTWAWKI may happen someday, heck it probably will, but the chances are that none of the preppers, survivalists, martial artists, weapons stockpilers, or etc are really going to be surviving it. More importantly, your house could catch on fire (God forbid) or there could be a local flood or other weather event that puts you out of your home or turns off your power in the area for days, weeks, even months, and your bug-out bag won't be of that much use, especially if you just buy it and carry it around like a magic totem.

Barter? I'm the lunatic who's stockpiled enough guns and ammo to outfit a small army. My plan is to become the local Petty Warlord and exact "tribute" from the survivors and passers-by.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

And I wasn't really singling out LEO's with my post-it's just an observation I've made over decades. I'm more appalled by civilians who get their CCW permit whose training ends with qualifying to carry, which appears to be the majority of them....(though quite a few of them were competent marksmen with pistols beforehand)...

Console yourself with the knowledge that, statistically speaking, most firearms related self defense events occur at 5 to 15 feet and the average person only needs to be sufficiently proficient to place rounds on a target equal to about 1.5 feet wide by 2 feet high (human torso) at that range. This is, again statistically speaking, most often accomplished by some variant of instinctive shooting, which most people can achieve by, well, instinct.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Training keeps getting mentioned a lot, as does the expense of continual practice. Here's a free tip. Many of us (but, admittedly, not all) can engage in very inexpensive training by using .177 Pellet Pistols and Pellet Rifles. There are a couple of companies which make semi-realistic-like CO2 Pellet Pistols, with reciprocating slides and more-or-less acceptable accuracy, for well under $100. Pump-style Pellet Rifles can be had for as little as $40 or so. .177 cal. pellets are available in lots of 500 from the local big box for well under $10. Pellet traps are easy to build or cheap to buy and the lead can be collected and recycled or sold/given to a friend who casts their own "boolits." While these aren't a perfect facsimile for your pistol, they do help develop and maintain fundamentals such as body position, sight alignment, trigger press, and follow through.

Further, with a functioning pellet trap, most training can be engaged in within the confines of your garage or even inside your home or apartment, or in your back yard (if legal in your area). Yes, these are still sufficient in energy and penetration that you need to wear safety glasses and, particularly the rifle, can even be effective for hunting small game such as squirrel, rabbit, or nuisance pest animals.

The noise is low, the costs are low, the benefits are high.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kong Soo Do]

First, if I did carry a firearm, you would never see me posting anything about it online. Call it paranoia, but I don't think it's anyone's business whether or not I carry. I certainly am not a licensed carry holder, mainly because a license to carry is defacto registration and I don't care to be registered.

While there is a wisdom in not advertising the carrying of a firearm, I cannot fully support the rest of your statement. While I don't necessarily agree with the need for a CCW (in my opinion the 2nd Amendment is your CCW/Open carry permit) it is the law in most carry states. And 'they' are going to know whether you have a firearm(s) or not regardless of whether you have applied/received a CCW simply based upon your purchases which can be tracked. In other words, people that buy ammo or components are likely to have a firearm. Unless you make all of your purchases under the radar i.e. pay cash.

Not having a CCW (assuming it is required in the state of residence) and not carrying a firearm is defacto resigning yourself to being a victim-in-waiting.

Third, I believe that carrying firearms changes the dynamics of any self-defense situation. Now, you must not only defend yourself, you must defend your weapon; by which I mean you must keep it from being taken from you

True, it is a possibility the firearm can be taken from you. But as Kirk mentions, it is statistically remote. Police officers carry plainly in the open for all to see, and though police have been disarmed, it is a very remote occurrence. A citizen carrying concealed has even less of a chance of being disarmed because potential bad guys can't take what they have not seen.

If you draw or otherwise brandish it, any self-defense situation has now become a deadly force situation.

Incorrect. The situation is already a deadly force situation which is why the firearm has to be drawn.

If you do that, you must a) be certain that you're legally permitted to do so, or you're going to become a bad man's boyfriend in prison, and b) you must be capable of taking a human life, because you just raised the chances considerably that you'll have to do so.

Most states require training in order to be able to apply for a permit, in fact every state does that I'm aware of (that issue CCW). This includes training on state statute. Statistically speaking, and as I pointed out above, a private citizen is five times LESS likely to make a mistake than a police officer when it comes to drawing/using a firearm according to the study I presented.

True, you have to have made the decision to use the firearm but it doesn't increase the chance you'll have to kill some one. Again, as Kirk points out, there have been MANY instances where the presence of a firearm in the hands of a good guy has stopped the bad guy from doing bad things without a shot being fired. It isn't something to count on of course, but it does happen with some regularity. On the flip side, not having or not using a firearm makes it more likely that your safety is in the hands of the bad guy.

Fourth, just like martial arts, carrying a weapon is worse than useless if you are not highly skilled and continue training with it

Again this is incorrect. While being highly trained is vastly preferable to being untrained or lightly trained, there have been a plethora of real world situations where the citizen has successfully defended themselves with little or no training. To say it is 'worse than useless' is ridiculous. What is worse than useless is having no means of protection.

While I'm a vocal spokesman of buying a firearm and getting REALISTIC training (strong and support hand shooting, loading, clearing, charging, shooting from various positions, dim light shooting, simunitions etc) for some it isn't as possible as others. As with anything, you do the very best you can with what you have and what is available.

I also think that most preppers or survivalists or self-defense experts and so on never seem to consider the self-defense scenarios they are MOST LIKELY to find themselves in. That is, we are far less likely to experience a nuclear detonation than we are a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, fire, mudslide, flood, or other force majeure.

I think you have a TV/Doomsday Preppers view of people in that category. And while there are loons within that community, they are the exception rather than the rule. They just get the press from an uneducated media. The VAST majority of people I know and associate with in the emergency preparedness/self reliance community are focused on the realities of the world we live in i.e. natural and man-made disasters that require critical thinking and pre-planning. Priorities are having safe, clean drinking water and the knowledge of how to make it clean and safe. Having food to eat. Having realistic and necessary medical skills and supplies for individual needs. And while firearms are on the list, for the majority of likely events they are way down at the bottom.

One should be careful about making sweeping statements about 'preppers' Being a 'prepper' is how most of our grandparents lived their lives. Back then it was SOP and just smart. Nowadays by most surveys/stats, less than 10% of Americans are prepared for a disaster (be it a storm, mudslide, forest fire, earthquake, social unrest, contaminated water supply, overturned chemical tanker on the highway, martians landing or zombies). Let me repeat that because it sounds kinda important...less than 10% of Americans are prepared for a disaster in their community. I kid about the space aliens and zombies but most people will freak if the water/power goes out for a week. Something like that should be a mild hiccup and not a world changing event in your life.

This is an area of expertise for me as I own a board, mod another and am a senior member of a third within this community. Good people, most of whom have a solid game plan.

I've offered factual statistics above for consideration.

 

[lklawson]

NRA instructors are usually readily available.

My NRA Training Counselor told me something the other day which I'd not heard before. Apparently the vast majority of NRA Certified Firearms Instructors have no intention of instructing either professionally or semi-professionally. They merely want a solid base to start from and a well respected curriculum for when they teach family or are asked to train friends.

What that means, in the context of your statement, is that the population of NRA Certified Firearms Instructors is much higher than what may be apparent from the instructors listed in the Yellow Pages, Online, or at the local Range & LGS. Those guys are just the tip of the iceberg.

I suspect that it's very possible that one of the existing students at the martial arts school either already is an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor (or certified by some other organization such as The Second Amendment Foundation), or knows one.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk