sugestions

[Manny]

What would you do to make the TKD class you teach more classycal? I am tlaking about Classic TKD not olimpic competitive sport.

Manny

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I train at what you would call a 'classical/traditional' tkd club. We get heaps of 'sport' tkd people come over to us because they want a more "martial art" form of tkd. I think first and foremost there has to be a good breakdown of ALL aspects of tkd. For every kick we do we will do at least one punch. We certainly dont adhere to the old "tkd is 80% kicks" school of thought. Kicks are taught to be done 'low', we do some high kicks but the emphasis is not on high, spinning, flashy kicks. We do knockdown sparring (thats what I call it, the instructors just call it sparring), we basically try to knock the opponent down to the floor as quick as possible, no points, no competition. Sparring rules are also changed regularly, we do punching only (like boxing), kicking only, ITF style, WTF style, 2 vs 2, 1 vs 2, 3 vs 1 etc etc We also have a heavy emphasis on 'self defence' usually taught by high ranking guys who are high up in the police force. It is straight to the point sort of self defence, very quick and brutal against the sort of attacks you will most likely come up against in the street. We also do a lot of self defence where you dont tell the defender what attack you are going to do to keep it unpredictable. We also do a lot of fitness and core strength work. I think all in all, keeping it 'real', head kicks are great, but way too much time can be spent practicing them, and people wont learn to defend their head against a punch if they 'always' spar under rulesets where a face punch cant happen. I havent trained at other clubs but I know that people who come to us for "old school" tkd are always very happy with what they find.

 

[Buka]

Discipline. Hard core contact. Manners. Then, more disciple, more hard core contact and more manners.

 

[puunui]

What would you do to make the TKD class you teach more classycal? I am tlaking about Classic TKD not olimpic competitive sport.

Manny

From what you have told us before on MT, you already teach a "traditional non-sport" oriented class, which resulted in your class enrollment going down to one student, sometimes two. Seems to me that would indicate people, at least in your area or your dojang, do not want a "traditional non-sport" oriented class. So why would you want to make it even more "classical" or even more "traditional non-sport" oriented? I would think you would want to go in the other direction, to make it more appealing to students.

 

[puunui]

Discipline. Hard core contact. Manners. Then, more disciple, more hard core contact and more manners.

"Classical" taekwondo, at least in the 1940'a at the Chung Do Kwan, was no contact sparring. Contact sparring came later.

 

[mastercole]

Discipline. Hard core contact. Manners. Then, more disciple, more hard core contact and more manners.

To me, this describes the modern training methods for Shihap Kyorugi, or what some like to call "Olympic Style" sparring.

 

[Cyriacus]

Basics. That is all.

 

[Manny]

i train at what you would call a 'classical/traditional' tkd club. We get heaps of 'sport' tkd people come over to us because they want a more "martial art" form of tkd. I think first and foremost there has to be a good breakdown of all aspects of tkd. For every kick we do we will do at least one punch. We certainly dont adhere to the old "tkd is 80% kicks" school of thought. Kicks are taught to be done 'low', we do some high kicks but the emphasis is not on high, spinning, flashy kicks. We do knockdown sparring (thats what i call it, the instructors just call it sparring), we basically try to knock the opponent down to the floor as quick as possible, no points, no competition. Sparring rules are also changed regularly, we do punching only (like boxing), kicking only, itf style, wtf style, 2 vs 2, 1 vs 2, 3 vs 1 etc etc we also have a heavy emphasis on 'self defence' usually taught by high ranking guys who are high up in the police force. It is straight to the point sort of self defence, very quick and brutal against the sort of attacks you will most likely come up against in the street. We also do a lot of self defence where you dont tell the defender what attack you are going to do to keep it unpredictable. We also do a lot of fitness and core strength work. I think all in all, keeping it 'real', head kicks are great, but way too much time can be spent practicing them, and people wont learn to defend their head against a punch if they 'always' spar under rulesets where a face punch cant happen. I havent trained at other clubs but i know that people who come to us for "old school" tkd are always very happy with what they find.

super!!!!!!

 

[Manny]

From what you have told us before on MT, you already teach a "traditional non-sport" oriented class, which resulted in your class enrollment going down to one student, sometimes two. Seems to me that would indicate people, at least in your area or your dojang, do not want a "traditional non-sport" oriented class. So why would you want to make it even more "classical" or even more "traditional non-sport" oriented? I would think you would want to go in the other direction, to make it more appealing to students.

You are wrong, my two students love the way I teach. Yes we have poor enrolement of ADULT MEN but thta's only because men (like parents) are so deep in their jobs with cero time to do something like tkd afther work.

I had two or three times 6 students but they no last and talking with some of them they leave so tired of the office that they only want to get home, also I've trying to reclute new members but they are not interested.

Manny

 

[puunui]

I had two or three times 6 students but they no last and talking with some of them they leave so tired of the office that they only want to get home, also I've trying to reclute new members but they are not interested.

Manny

And you think making your class more "classical" will increase membership?

 

[mastercole]

You are wrong, my two students love the way I teach. Yes we have poor enrolement of ADULT MEN but thta's only because men (like parents) are so deep in their jobs with cero time to do something like tkd afther work.

I had two or three times 6 students but they no last and talking with some of them they leave so tired of the office that they only want to get home, also I've trying to reclute new members but they are not interested.

Manny

Teach for the masses and the masses will come. Then you will have a great body participants to choose from when you are looking for serious students, who want to train hard. They will stand out from the masses. You can create a special, invitation class only for those people.

To do otherwise is approaching it backwards and as you can see, it will not be successful.

 

[Buka]

"Classical" taekwondo, at least in the 1940'a at the Chung Do Kwan, was no contact sparring. Contact sparring came later.

I didn't know that. Why do you suppose that was?

 

[puunui]

I didn't know that. Why do you suppose that was?

Because that is what GM Lee knew and taught.

 

[Manny]

And you think making your class more "classical" will increase membership?

Yes, however if you can contribute to this post and advise me something I will be glad to think about it. You must have more expertise teaching classes and enroling new people to your dojang, so anything you can share is wellcome.

Manny

 

[Manny]

Teach for the masses and the masses will come. Then you will have a great body participants to choose from when you are looking for serious students, who want to train hard. They will stand out from the masses. You can create a special, invitation class only for those people.

To do otherwise is approaching it backwards and as you can see, it will not be successful.

Thank you, I got your point. So you think I have to change the way I teach, something like do more WTF sparring training, or maybe focus in sport TKD instead the clasicla TKD?

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

Thank you, I got your point. So you think I have to change the way I teach, something like do more WTF sparring training, or maybe focus in sport TKD instead the clasicla TKD?

Manny

Manny,
I don't think of what you call sport as separate. Sparring is fluent use of technique against a live opponent. Rules vary with the type of sparring. I think sparring is so important because it gives purpose to training. You train not just because "you might need it on the street someday", but because you will use it sparring here in class or perhaps at tournament.

I also don't think the focus is 'either sport or classic'; sparring is classical TKD in my mind (it's a key attribute of TKD that is Korean). There are many kinds of sparring, from the most basic one-step through full contact non-stop. Sparring is just another, more realistic, kind of skill-building. The challenge for the instructor is to build this in a progressive manner and not just put people in a ring and say "shi-jak". What kinds of sparring do you use in your classes now?

Carl

 

[Manny]

Manny,
I don't think of what you call sport as separate. Sparring is fluent use of technique against a live opponent. Rules vary with the type of sparring. I think sparring is so important because it gives purpose to training. You train not just because "you might need it on the street someday", but because you will use it sparring here in class or perhaps at tournament.

I also don't think the focus is 'either sport or classic'; sparring is classical TKD in my mind (it's a key attribute of TKD that is Korean). There are many kinds of sparring, from the most basic one-step through full contact non-stop. Sparring is just another, more realistic, kind of skill-building. The challenge for the instructor is to build this in a progressive manner and not just put people in a ring and say "shi-jak". What kinds of sparring do you use in your classes now?

Carl

We do one step sparring, light contact sparring and full contact sparring, light and full contact sparring using WTF rules you know cero puch to the face head, in light sparring we don't use protective gear, in full contact sparring we use the hogu and helmet and shin pads. We try to be as realistic as possible doing self defese techs too. Our kicking drills are ala Old School, we don't use the hopping/jumping motion of WTF olimpic kicking drills, we are not aerial instead we are conected to the ground and yes I like to do spining hook kicks and spining back kicks but that's all, certainly we trow head kicks like the dolyo chagui but our principal target is the hogu. We also if need it use blocks and feints, however our sparring stile is diferent from what we can see in the olimpic gamos for example.

I want to do some kind of ITF sparring (you know using punches and other hand techs to teh face/head) but I think my master can be upset cause we are a WTF/KUKIWON dojang.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

...we don't use the hopping/jumping motion of WTF olimpic kicking drills, we are not aerial instead we are conected to the ground...
Manny

I'm unclear on what you mean here. With the exception of jumping back kick, our sparring kicks have the base foot on the ground. Our footwork before the kick varies--sometimes front leg step/slide, back leg step/slide, or both feet hop toward opponent. But even the hop forward isn't what I'd call aerial--it's as low and fast as possible. Double and triple round kicks take more coordination and athleticism, but they are not what I'd teach early on with an adult group and you can spar very well without them. Is that what you mean by hopping/jumping?

Carl

 

[Manny]

I'm unclear on what you mean here. With the exception of jumping back kick, our sparring kicks have the base foot on the ground. Our footwork before the kick varies--sometimes front leg step/slide, back leg step/slide, or both feet hop toward opponent. But even the hop forward isn't what I'd call aerial--it's as low and fast as possible. Double and triple round kicks take more coordination and athleticism, but they are not what I'd teach early on with an adult group and you can spar very well without them. Is that what you mean by hopping/jumping?

Carl

OK we don't use the exesive WTF olimpic footwork, we are not competitors/players the way we sparr is doing feints and all the kicking is doing with one foot on the ground, so forget about jumping/spining/aerial kicking drills for example, the kids in the other hand been lighter and smaller can fly/jump/bounce around pretty nice.

We don't do triple kicks at once for example like in the olimpics, don't know if you get me, we use dsipacement, go forward or backwards looking for an angle or an opening. Myself for example I trow a head kick for every 4 or 5 kicks aimed to the hogu, my favorite head kicks are the chigo chagui/neryo chagui, the dolyo chagui and certanly the spining hook kick, but they are used as a combo using the roundhouse to the hogu followed by this kicks to the head.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

Manny, what you describe isn't a different kind of sparring, it's just the difference between the youngsters in their athletic prime who also have great skills and us middle-aged folks who are learning skills now. The goal is to score and not be scored upon. You don't have to do triples to spar "Olympic style". The more accurate definition of Olympic style is that it is non-stop, with full-contact above the belt except for no hand techniques to the head. And even that ruleset is just one option--you could just do "kickboxing" and wear boxing gloves and allow hand or foot contact above the belt if that makes you happier. It is important, though, to make sure you are doing something that will gain and retain students, and something that you have deep understanding of if you are going to teach it. A great benefit of Olympic style sparring is that even people our age can go to tournaments and meet and spar others who are our age. I don't think you will find as many kickboxing tournaments, but I don't live where you do.

Carl