will you choose TKD as a amrtial art

[Sledgehammer]

I'm glad you've found a school that you like and feel like you're getting something out of, that's great! I'm going to ask you though, and don't take this in any negative way, how do you know it is very practical self defense? Does the instructor(s) have actual realworld experience on what they're teaching you? Have they used multiple techniques/tactics/strategies that they're teaching you, against violent, resisting bad guys in a real world situation? If so, how extensive is that experience? If not, have they at least learned from someone that has extensive experience?

Again, nothing negative directed at you, I'm only using your comments as a springboard for consideration to you or anyone reading this. Since you mentioned SD, I'm assuming this is of importance to you. I have found that many people, even supposed professionals are easily impressed with things that don't work in real life against violent, resisting attackers. Many sports instructors 'think' that what they teach is valid for SD...it is not. A few tidbits of that training 'may' be useful but the bulk relies entirely on the wrong teaching methodology. So anyone (you or other) that has SD as a focus or goal needs to be VERY sure that SD is actually what they are receiving. Ten year old BB's running around, too be seriously honest with you, screams sport TKD. Sport TKD is not SD. That isn't meant as a slight against sport TKD. But you don't drive a Corvette and think it is useful for four-wheeling or hauling a camper. They are different vehicles for different purposes.

I'd suggest to you (or anyone) to respectfully ask about your instructors complete background and experience. If you ask an instructor if they teach SD and they go on about their extensive tournament background and record....turn around and walk out. They teach sport and don't have a clue what SD actually involves. I know sport training but I don't teach it. Therefore if someone comes to me wanting to get into competitions I steer them elsewhere. I'm the wrong vehicle for them. Similarly, if someone comes to a sport club wanting SD, I expect them to be honest and direct them elsewhere. If they don't they do not have the students best interest at heart. Again, nobody take offense if they're in sport TKD (or any sport training). If that is what you want and that is what you're getting then big thumbs up. But I fight real bad guys all the time. My last realworld altercation against a violent, resisting, crazy felon was less than a week and a half ago and the time before that was only a few days earlier. And I talk to these sorts of people. They're direct enough to state they LOVE to fight a person if they've only had sport training (i.e. sport TKD, sport Karate, sport BJJ) cause they are EASY to hurt. If you've never seen real convicts training and teaching fighting techniques to each other then you might seriously consider checking into it. I see them all the time. They don't like fighting street-wise fighters.

Take my comments for whatever you feel they're worth, but I really implore people to make sure they are getting what they think they're getting.

I appreciate the comment. The kids TKD classes are very sport oriented, the adult classes self defense and real life application is constantly stressed. Any new technique is taught with the real world in mind. I think how I'm training also, with strict SD in mind, has an effect on how I perceive the class as well. Although I'm getting much more out of it than that, like discipline, inner strength, etc. We also do a lot of sparring, which helps. I am also training in hapkido, which mixes very well with TKD.

I think for the street, one can become a vicious striker ending conflicts decisively if they train hard and properly in TKD.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Last month, I started TKD. After a lot of research on the different arts, and comparing that to what is offered in my area, I decided on TKD. The school i chose is a solid school, and teaches very practical self defense applications, although there are 10 year old black belts, which frankly, I find completely absurd. This much I know: If you find a good school, practice HARD at home (using a banana bag), and learn all the basics, TKD can be a very lethal MA, contrary to what many others say.

After only 1 month of training in the dojang, practicing about 3 hours a week on my banana, and learning from "Kwonkicker" on youtube (I HIGHLY recommend him), I am much better able to defend myself. And that is only after 1 month.

That is my 2 cents.

Well that is great you have an instructor that teaches the adults more self defense than tournament base fighting. I also use to looke at kwonkicker bac in the day and to me his style has changed to a kickboxing. Not muay thai cause he will say he is tkd. Though you can tell that he went to Thailand for hard body training but some of thai style sinked in.

Now have you seen gingerninjatickster? I ask you to watch how the he does a hook kick and how kwonkicker does his. Gingerninjatickster explain more on how to use it in different manner while than kwonkicker.

Just food for thought.

 

[SJON]

I think for the street, one can become a vicious striker ending conflicts decisively if they train hard and properly in TKD.

Certainly. Just out of curiosity, what proportion of the techniques you train for the street are kicks? What kind?

 

[Sledgehammer]

Well that is great you have an instructor that teaches the adults more self defense than tournament base fighting. I also use to looke at kwonkicker bac in the day and to me his style has changed to a kickboxing. Not muay thai cause he will say he is tkd. Though you can tell that he went to Thailand for hard body training but some of thai style sinked in.

Now have you seen gingerninjatickster? I ask you to watch how the he does a hook kick and how kwonkicker does his. Gingerninjatickster explain more on how to use it in different manner while than kwonkicker.

Just food for thought.

I'll check him out

 

[Sledgehammer]

Certainly. Just out of curiosity, what proportion of the techniques you train for the street are kicks? What kind?

Since I'm in my first month, the only kicks i am training to use in the street if I had to are:

1- Front
2- Side
3- Round
4- Spinning back

I'm focusing strictly on kicks from the chest down for now, with a real emphasis on round kicks to the legs/ribs and side kicks mid-section/knees. In my opinion, the above kicks are the most practical and useful for the street, but I could be wrong on that. Overall, I train 50% punching, 50% kicking.

 

[Manny]

Since I'm in my first month, the only kicks i am training to use in the street if I had to are:

1- Front
2- Side
3- Round
4- Spinning back

I'm focusing strictly on kicks from the chest down for now, with a real emphasis on round kicks to the legs/ribs and side kicks mid-section/knees. In my opinion, the above kicks are the most practical and useful for the street, but I could be wrong on that. Overall, I train 50% punching, 50% kicking.

Those kicks are the cream talking about self defense, the height you do them is the correct one, I saw some months ago a 100 punds petit student (lady) knock off a 180 pounds man with a spining back kick (ti-chagui) just below the belt or below (the man was using a small hogu so the kick was placed in ten bladder area).

Manny

 

[SJON]

My advice would be that kicks - any kicks - are pretty much the last thing you should be thinking about if your focus is self-defence. Just because they're there doesn't mean you're obliged to use them.

Of course, if your goal is to study all aspects of TKD, then the kicks are indeed important, and the ones you list are the most important ones. In fact, it could be argued that if you don't do the kicking then you aren't doing TKD, which, incidentally, is where I find myself.

Just don't confuse what is essentially a Korean folk pastime now honed into a unique sport (the Taekkyon kicking that was bolted on to Karate) with anything to do with self-defence. TKD has plenty of other stuff that takes care of self-defence, and kicking is not more than a miniscule part of that.

Now, quoting myself, as I've grown fond of doing recently, would anyone care to take up the gauntlet on the following?

To be clear, out of all the mainstream arts, I think TKD is the one in which most people least understand the techniques and think about how to adapt them, because the overwhelming emphasis, enforced by the big orgs, is elsewhere and has been for a long time.

 

[dancingalone]

Now, quoting myself, as I've grown fond of doing recently, would anyone care to take up the gauntlet on the following?

I don't care to speak about organizations on this particular topic because it usually turns into a big flame fest and I weary of such things on martial arts message boards.

I will make the observation that students frequently think sparring = fighting and that is true regardless of the type of sparring (point stop, Olympic rules, continuous rounds, ground-based rolling, etc.) Schools that do a good job of training their art as SD methods make clear the difference between the two and their drills and other training methods follow from that.

 

[Sledgehammer]

My advice would be that kicks - any kicks - are pretty much the last thing you should be thinking about if your focus is self-defence. Just because they're there doesn't mean you're obliged to use them.

Of course, if your goal is to study all aspects of TKD, then the kicks are indeed important, and the ones you list are the most important ones. In fact, it could be argued that if you don't do the kicking then you aren't doing TKD, which, incidentally, is where I find myself.

Just don't confuse what is essentially a Korean folk pastime now honed into a unique sport (the Taekkyon kicking that was bolted on to Karate) with anything to do with self-defence. TKD has plenty of other stuff that takes care of self-defence, and kicking is not more than a miniscule part of that.

Now, quoting myself, as I've grown fond of doing recently, would anyone care to take up the gauntlet on the following?

I respectfully disagree with your view that kicks are the last thing one should focus on when it comes to self defense. In my opinion, the legs are the longest and strongest parts of the body, and most attackers are not prepared for a side kick- spinning back kick combo, but rather, are expecting you to throw hand strikes. A strong kicking game enhances your ability to defend yourself one hundred fold, IMO.

 

[Gnarlie]

I respectfully disagree with your view that kicks are the last thing one should focus on when it comes to self defense. In my opinion, the legs are the longest and strongest parts of the body, and most attackers are not prepared for a side kick- spinning back kick combo, but rather, are expecting you to throw hand strikes. A strong kicking game enhances your ability to defend yourself one hundred fold, IMO.

My advice would be that kicks - any kicks - are pretty much the last thing you should be thinking about if your focus is self-defence. Just because they're there doesn't mean you're obliged to use them.

It depends on the person, the opponent, and the situation.

It depends how well the person can kick, and what they know about dealing with situations where kicking doesn't work as anticipated.

It depends if the opponent is trained, and if not, then what their reactions and expectations are like.

It depends if the opportunity to kick with minimised risk presents itself.

There is no way I would ever rule out kicking.

 

[Manny]

I respectfully disagree with your view that kicks are the last thing one should focus on when it comes to self defense. In my opinion, the legs are the longest and strongest parts of the body, and most attackers are not prepared for a side kick- spinning back kick combo, but rather, are expecting you to throw hand strikes. A strong kicking game enhances your ability to defend yourself one hundred fold, IMO.

IMHO a strong kick delivered to the shins,knees or tights and even to the going/testicles/bladder area is devastating because a) you can break a kneww or you can tear a tigh or disrum the bladder AND if the bad guy can't walk he can't fight.

The legs are stronger and longer and heavier than the arms so saying the kicks are useless in a real fight is a bad point, for me is better to kick low than strike high.

Manny

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Afther all these years talking about the sport side of TKD, martial arts vs sport, olimpic competition, electronic devices for competition, etc, etc,etc will you choose TKD as a martial art to train on it right now? Yes? No? and Why?

Manny

I still practice pumsae and train and I still work with a group doing a mix of TKD and HKD, but I have stopped formally training in the art.

If a school became available locally that wasn't trying to get the equivallent of a car payment out of me every month, I might consider it. Pretty much every school that I have visited locally has been standard fare commercial dojangs and I do not have the time any longer to drive long distances to train.

Others have remarked on the sport vs. self defense side, but that really isn't a factor in my comments above.

 

[GiannisMalkavian]

I choose TKD as martial art if I found a teacher teaching both sport TKD and traditional TKD.
Traditional TKD has so many nice movements, and it's so powerful. They had to remove all that in order to make it gentle enough to get through olympic sports.
A friend of mine attends a school where they teach sport TKD during most teaching hours weekly, but they also teach traditional TKD and Hapkido. I believe this to be a great combination. I believe its results would be really successful. And I can see this when we spar too... Very impressive! Very complete training.

 

[TKDTony2179]

IMHO a strong kick delivered to the shins,knees or tights and even to the going/testicles/bladder area is devastating because a) you can break a kneww or you can tear a tigh or disrum the bladder AND if the bad guy can't walk he can't fight.

The legs are stronger and longer and heavier than the arms so saying the kicks are useless in a real fight is a bad point, for me is better to kick low than strike high.

Manny

Kicks added to any hand strikes are the best things you can do. Sometimes you cant kick because of the surface area. Many tkd guys seems to to study only the kicking aspect and the concept of kicking but for get the hand strikes, locks, and joint locks. If we was in a pool or in a crowded nightclub some of us would be in trouble.

I think we must utilize the various of kicks and not depend on just kicking which some do. Not saying you do. Just saying in general of all of us.

 

[SJON]

In my opinion, the legs are the longest and strongest parts of the body, and most attackers are not prepared for a side kick- spinning back kick combo, but rather, are expecting you to throw hand strikes. A strong kicking game enhances your ability to defend yourself one hundred fold, IMO.

The legs are stronger and longer and heavier than the arms so saying the kicks are useless in a real fight is a bad point, for me is better to kick low than strike high.Manny

With respect, I’d say that the above is a fantasy that has become part of TKD lore as an effort to justify the preponderance of kicking to clients who are looking for self-defence and find themselves in an art (regardless of org) with other priorities.

I’d suggest arranging a friendly but heavy contact bout with a boxer to try out the kicking-is-superior theory.

What about this bit?

To be clear, out of all the mainstream arts, I think TKD is the one in which most people least understand the techniques and think about how to adapt them, because the overwhelming emphasis, enforced by the big orgs, is elsewhere and has been for a long time.

 

[MAist25]

With respect, I’d say that the above is a fantasy that has become part of TKD lore as an effort to justify the preponderance of kicking to clients who are looking for self-defence and find themselves in an art (regardless of org) with other priorities.

I’d suggest arranging a friendly but heavy contact bout with a boxer to try out the kicking-is-superior theory.

What about this bit?

I would very much agree with you. TKD people always use the "the legs are the most powerful weapon blah blah blah" theory to justify their heavy use of kicks being transitioned to self defense. This is simply not the case, period. I don't care who you are, if there is someone who has their mind set on hurting you, they are going to get through your kicking range, so you better have a game plan for when this happens.

SJON, I believe your statement could be worded better, but I believe I understand what you are saying. In all honesty it is quite clear that sport has become the primary focus of "the big orgs," mostly the WTF. In this case, I believe TKD is one of the MOST understood arts and actually one of the arts where the techniques are BEST adapted for their purpose.

However, I believe what you are trying to get at is that because the sport aspect of TKD has almost completely taken over the art, the original intentions of the techniques, being combative in nature, have been lost or replaced by the idea of scoring points. Because of this, then yes, I agree that the techniques and their purpose have been lost. They have learned to adapt their techniques to give them the highest probability of scoring points. But in doing so they have forgotten, neglected, or misunderstood any other application of these techniques.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My advice would be that kicks - any kicks - are pretty much the last thing you should be thinking about if your focus is self-defence.

Most of the time, things are not black and white but grey.

Legs are designed to be used to support the body weight. If your opponent catches your kicking leg and sweep/hook your standing leg at the same time, you will be in trouble. The kicking has to take more risk than the punching. There is no argument on that.

On the other hands, the leg is longer than the arm. When your opponent runs toward you and tries to knock your head off, a good toe push kick can not only stop his attacking, but also let him to run into your kick. If you have good body structure behind your kick, you may drop your opponent right at that moment by borrowing his forward momentum. A good toe push kick can be your effective 1st line defense. The foot sweep (I assume it can be considered as one kind of kicks too) can be used to sweep your opponent's leading leg when he puts weight on it. Not only you can interrupt his attack, you may sweep him down if the timing is right.

In kicking range, the kicking is very powerful. In punching range and clinching range, it's not very useful. A good kick can be used to set up a good punch. A good punch can be used to set up a clinch. A good clinch can ... Everything should all be integrated.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I respectfully disagree with your view that kicks are the last thing one should focus on when it comes to self defense. In my opinion, the legs are the longest and strongest parts of the body, and most attackers are not prepared for a side kick- spinning back kick combo, but rather, are expecting you to throw hand strikes. A strong kicking game enhances your ability to defend yourself one hundred fold, IMO.

Let me toss this out since the flow of the conversation has transitioned over the kicks and their usefulness for self defense. Okay, yes the legs are very strong. Yes, if you can connect with a well-placed kick it can work very well.

However...

I can only use myself, and those I've direct, first-hand knowledge of as a way to compare for the purposes of an example. Between the military and law enforcement I've been in uniform 28 years. I honestly don't know how many uses of force I've had in my career. If I had to take a ball park guess I'd say 700 - 800. Everything from knock-down-dragout fights to joint locks to throws to cavity pressing to etc. That isn't a boast and I'm not Superman nor am I bullet proof. I just work in a violent career, in violent areas for a really long time. I've verbally de-escalated far more altercations than I've been in and I'm proud of that. So no one think I'm trying to sound like billy badass. My point is that in all that time and all those altercations I've never kicked anyone...ever. I've only had maybe two people try to kick me with something akin to a straight kick. I can count on one hand the times I've seen a fellow Deputy or the bad guy try to kick each other. So kicks 'can' happen but just not as much as you'd think.

Many reasons for this; people of course in general aren't trained and/or comfortable kicking. But more often than not, the area of the altercation isn't conducive to kicking i.e there isn't enough room to kick. And remember, kicking in the dojang/dojo in the loose-fitting pajamas when you're warmed up and stretched out on a flat, level, dry surface in a venue that is well lite is quite a bit different than wearing normal clothing and shoes on different surfaces (which may be wet, slippery, sloping etc) and in dim light conditions. I just don't see kicking that often in real fights. Punching, grappling and improvised weapons are far more common.

Now I'm not saying it is a waste of time to learn kicking. Great conditioning and it 'could' be useful in the right circumstances. But we don't normally kick above knee height with an occasional waist height (not counting high kicks to stretch out). And we use only front kick (front and back leg), side kick and snap kick. That's it. Any type of high and/or refined and/or flashy and/or spinning kick in a real fight...well, I don't like your chances. As I mentioned elsewhere, convicts and inmates train each other on how do defeat typical TKD kicks. And it isn't hard, no offense intended.

And as a hard body conditioning martial artist, I'll go shin to shin with any TKD kicker. Unless they've conditioned their shins with bowling pins and tires again...I don't like their chances. That isn't a superman boast and shouldn't be taken as such, but those that do hard body conditioning will know what I'm talking about. Our idea of a BB test is four guys hitting and kicking you repeatedly while you do a kata. Anyway sorry for getting off on that tangent, the point is that kicking can be useful but I wouldn't spend but maybe 5-10% of my time practicing them. YMMV.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I should add one thing; knee spikes DO happen in real fights and can happen often and repeatedly. I've used knee spikes myself on multiple occasions to great effect so we do train those quite a bit. And they're great conditioning as well. I've knee spiked someone so hard that they've defecated themselves...which put a quick end to the fight!

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

My first TKD instructor became a cop in Hong Kong and although he was a good kicker, he said he preferred hang techniques for 2 reasons.

1) Hand techniques are very non-committed. If one does not work, you can flow to the next one readily. The problem with kicking, as Bill Wallace says, is that at some point you are only standing on one leg!
2) Kicking is viewed by the public as more violent than punching, and therefore harder for a cop to justify doing to someone.

I hadn't thought of #2 previously, but it was an important point.