will you choose TKD as a amrtial art

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I still practice pumsae and train and I still work with a group doing a mix of TKD and HKD, but I have stopped formally training in the art.

If a school became available locally that wasn't trying to get the equivallent of a car payment out of me every month, I might consider it. Pretty much every school that I have visited locally has been standard fare commercial dojangs and I do not have the time any longer to drive long distances to train.

Thanks for the post. I was thinking of starting a thread on whether anyone has stopped going to a TKD school, and trained only on their own. I myself stopped as I didn't find the right school for me at this point, but keep practising by myself on my body opponent bag.

 

[Sledgehammer]

With respect, I’d say that the above is a fantasy that has become part of TKD lore as an effort to justify the preponderance of kicking to clients who are looking for self-defence and find themselves in an art (regardless of org) with other priorities.

I’d suggest arranging a friendly but heavy contact bout with a boxer to try out the kicking-is-superior theory.

What about this bit?

I see your point. However, I never said that kicking was superior to punching. But, your legs are the strongest and longest part of your body, that is a fact. And most attackers are not expecting their victim to use kicks, that is a fact. I understand that it is not practical to use kicks in many cases, but in cases of multiple attackers for example, strong kicks can save you big time. I train hands and legs equally. I'd much rather have 4 limbs to protect myself with, than 2. Also, if your opponent is a boxer, that is all the more reason to use some leg strikes to keep him at a distance.

Strong hand/leg strikes is what makes TKD what it is (excluding the fancy, pointless ones). There is always BJJ if someone thinks kicks are useless.

 

[Sledgehammer]

Most of the time, things are not black and white but grey.

Legs are designed to be used to support the body weight. If your opponent catches your kicking leg and sweep/hook your standing leg at the same time, you will be in trouble. The kicking has to take more risk than the punching. There is no argument on that.

On the other hands, the leg is longer than the arm. When your opponent runs toward you and tries to knock your head off, a good toe push kick can not only stop his attacking, but also let him to run into your kick. If you have good body structure behind your kick, you may drop your opponent right at that moment by borrowing his forward momentum. A good toe push kick can be your effective 1st line defense. The foot sweep (I assume it can be considered as one kind of kicks too) can be used to sweep your opponent's leading leg when he puts weight on it. Not only you can interrupt his attack, you may sweep him down if the timing is right.

In kicking range, the kicking is very powerful. In punching range and clinching range, it's not very useful. A good kick can be used to set up a good punch. A good punch can be used to set up a clinch. A good clinch can ... Everything should all be integrated.

Well said.

 

[Jaeimseu]

My point is that in all that time and all those altercations I've never kicked anyone...ever. I've only had maybe two people try to kick me with something akin to a straight kick. I can count on one hand the times I've seen a fellow Deputy or the bad guy try to kick each other. So kicks 'can' happen but just not as much as you'd think.

As I mentioned elsewhere, convicts and inmates train each other on how do defeat typical TKD kicks. And it isn't hard, no offense intended.

This is interesting to me. To be clear, I'm not doubting your experience or that of your colleagues, so why do convicts and inmates train each other on how to defeat typical TKD kicks?

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2

 

[TKDTony2179]

My first TKD instructor became a cop in Hong Kong and although he was a good kicker, he said he preferred hang techniques for 2 reasons.

1) Hand techniques are very non-committed. If one does not work, you can flow to the next one readily. The problem with kicking, as Bill Wallace says, is that at some point you are only standing on one leg!
2) Kicking is viewed by the public as more violent than punching, and therefore harder for a cop to justify doing to someone.

I hadn't thought of #2 previously, but it was an important point.

Number 2 sounds like something my instructor told me once on the myth of black belt getting hands registered. Pretty much he said if I punch some it is an assault, and if I kick someone it is a assault with a deadly weapons. That applies to to people that dont do martial arts as well. Makes you want to think again about period.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Thanks for the post. I was thinking of starting a thread on whether anyone has stopped going to a TKD school, and trained only on their own. I myself stopped as I didn't find the right school for me at this point, but keep practising by myself on my body opponent bag.

Having a sparring partner is important as well. I hope you have a friend or two to spar with from time to time.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Let me toss this out since the flow of the conversation has transitioned over the kicks and their usefulness for self defense. Okay, yes the legs are very strong. Yes, if you can connect with a well-placed kick it can work very well.

However...

I can only use myself, and those I've direct, first-hand knowledge of as a way to compare for the purposes of an example. Between the military and law enforcement I've been in uniform 28 years. I honestly don't know how many uses of force I've had in my career. If I had to take a ball park guess I'd say 700 - 800. Everything from knock-down-dragout fights to joint locks to throws to cavity pressing to etc. That isn't a boast and I'm not Superman nor am I bullet proof. I just work in a violent career, in violent areas for a really long time. I've verbally de-escalated far more altercations than I've been in and I'm proud of that. So no one think I'm trying to sound like billy badass. My point is that in all that time and all those altercations I've never kicked anyone...ever. I've only had maybe two people try to kick me with something akin to a straight kick. I can count on one hand the times I've seen a fellow Deputy or the bad guy try to kick each other. So kicks 'can' happen but just not as much as you'd think.

Many reasons for this; people of course in general aren't trained and/or comfortable kicking. But more often than not, the area of the altercation isn't conducive to kicking i.e there isn't enough room to kick. And remember, kicking in the dojang/dojo in the loose-fitting pajamas when you're warmed up and stretched out on a flat, level, dry surface in a venue that is well lite is quite a bit different than wearing normal clothing and shoes on different surfaces (which may be wet, slippery, sloping etc) and in dim light conditions. I just don't see kicking that often in real fights. Punching, grappling and improvised weapons are far more common.

Now I'm not saying it is a waste of time to learn kicking. Great conditioning and it 'could' be useful in the right circumstances. But we don't normally kick above knee height with an occasional waist height (not counting high kicks to stretch out). And we use only front kick (front and back leg), side kick and snap kick. That's it. Any type of high and/or refined and/or flashy and/or spinning kick in a real fight...well, I don't like your chances. As I mentioned elsewhere, convicts and inmates train each other on how do defeat typical TKD kicks. And it isn't hard, no offense intended.

And as a hard body conditioning martial artist, I'll go shin to shin with any TKD kicker. Unless they've conditioned their shins with bowling pins and tires again...I don't like their chances. That isn't a superman boast and shouldn't be taken as such, but those that do hard body conditioning will know what I'm talking about. Our idea of a BB test is four guys hitting and kicking you repeatedly while you do a kata. Anyway sorry for getting off on that tangent, the point is that kicking can be useful but I wouldn't spend but maybe 5-10% of my time practicing them. YMMV.

I know tkd is popular and so many people have taken it or reach some sort of black belt level but cant stop imaging a tkd guy trying to do a roundhouse kick and a convict takes the tkd guy down and shank him to dealth.

I know you say that kicks are not used much at all in fights but how many times have you seen a chance for a kick to be use defensively? I just talking about the basic kicks front round and possible the side? I think you did mention you practice those kicks low.

Also do the convicts talk about defeating any other martial arts like gung fu?

 

[TKDTony2179]

I think we all can say that concept of using the largest weapon in self defense is a great idea under certain circumstances but truly understanding the various types of kicks and how to make them work is one part of the art but understanding and that this art is foot hand way not just foot means hands should be used just as well. What is your ratio? 60% kicks 40% hands? We are not capoeira. We have hands as well.

 

[TKDTony2179]

I think we all can say that concept of using the largest weapon in self defense is a great idea under certain circumstances but truly understanding the various types of kicks and how to make them work is one part of the art but understanding and that this art is foot hand way not just foot means hands should be used just as well. What is your ratio? 60% kicks 40% hands? We are not capoeira. We have hands as well.

Also we must remember that we limit ourselves by doing only kicks just as boxing limit themselves to punching and grapplers to wrestling. All the roots of fighting must be one in a person. Even weapon fighting .

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I see your point. However, I never said that kicking was superior to punching. But, your legs are the strongest and longest part of your body, that is a fact. And most attackers are not expecting their victim to use kicks, that is a fact. I understand that it is not practical to use kicks in many cases, but in cases of multiple attackers for example, strong kicks can save you big time. I train hands and legs equally. I'd much rather have 4 limbs to protect myself with, than 2. Also, if your opponent is a boxer, that is all the more reason to use some leg strikes to keep him at a distance.

Strong hand/leg strikes is what makes TKD what it is (excluding the fancy, pointless ones). There is always BJJ if someone thinks kicks are useless.

Kicks aren't useless in self defense, but the way that one kicks in WTF competition is not well suited for self defense. Kicks work best in self defense when kept below the waist. There are various kicks that we practice in hapkido that are aimed at the knees and lower legs. An opponent is unlikely to be able to grab your leg when you kick to low targets and is also less likely to see the kick coming. Hands are much more useful in dealing with targets and threats above waist level, while the legs are strongest in doing what legs are meant to do; enable motion and perform footwork.

Kicking in WTF taekwondo is the way that it is in order to evoke taekkyeon, which was a pre-invasion kicking game. Supposedly, Taekwondo would have been Taekkyeondo, but there were no Hanmoon characters for Taekkyeon; it is an indegeneous Korean word. Taekwondo was supposedly picked because of it's phonetic similarity. I say supposedly because I cannot cite a source, not because I lack confidence in the statement.

WTF taekwondo has a lot of good things to offer, but the WTF is a sports organization, not the keepers of a martial art. The sport is designed to be challenging and fun. And it is. It has a well developed competitive circuit and on an international level.

And just to clarify: I and others have said that there is no such martial art as WTF taekwondo. And there isn't. There is sport taekwondo played under WTF rules, which I refer to as WTF taekwondo (like NFL football as opposed to Association football, CFL football, or the now defunct USFL and XFL football leagues) to differentiate it from other types of sport taekwondo/sport karate (the ITF has a competitive rule set for sport, but it is very, very different from the WTF's).

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This is interesting to me. To be clear, I'm not doubting your experience or that of your colleagues, so why do convicts and inmates train each other on how to defeat typical TKD kicks?

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2

Good question. Mainly because they're usually high and/or refined motor skilled. This translates to being easily defeated i.e. grabbed. Tony makes a good example;

I know tkd is popular and so many people have taken it or reach some sort of black belt level but cant stop imaging a tkd guy trying to do a roundhouse kick and a convict takes the tkd guy down and shank him to dealth.

This isn't meant as an insult to sport TKD. Those high, flashy kicks take a lot of training, conditioning and skill. And in the right environment i.e. controlled, they can be great. Outside of that environment, not so much. Daniel puts it well in this statement;

Kicks aren't useless in self defense, but the way that one kicks in WTF competition is not well suited for self defense. Kicks work best in self defense when kept below the waist. There are various kicks that we practice in hapkido that are aimed at the knees and lower legs. An opponent is unlikely to be able to grab your leg when you kick to low targets and is also less likely to see the kick coming.

And kick defense isn't the only thing they train on of course. The good ole fashioned haymaker, jab, cross and take downs i.e. street fighting. And yes, edged weapons are commonly involved. Normally reserved for other cons/inmates on the inside or victims on the outside.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I respectfully disagree with your view that kicks are the last thing one should focus on when it comes to self defense. In my opinion, the legs are the longest and strongest parts of the body,

I'd like to comment on this statement, as I have heard it many, many times over the years.

Legs are designed specifically to carry you and to support you, which is why they are the longest and strongest of your limbs. Footwork is vital in every martial art, and it is this area where legs are best used.

and most attackers are not prepared for a side kick- spinning back kick combo, but rather, are expecting you to throw hand strikes.

No, but most attackers are prepared for kicks to the midsection and kicks above the waist and spinning kicks in particular, are hard to hide. Kicks are slower than punches and are easier to see coming, which is why the idea that people cannot deal with them simply because they're uncommon is a falacy. Kids kick all through elementary, middle and high school, and with TKD schools being ubiquitous for over two decades, don't be so sure that a side kick is as exotic as you think it is. Also, you have far fewer options with kicking than you do with hand techniques.

I have used kicks in SD. All have been aimed at knee level and lower. And I while I can kick pretty nicely at 46 years of age, at the time I was much younger, training in TKD, and could kick over my 6'4" height. And I could kick very, very well. I was told by one of my instructors that I had the perfect build for taekwondo; tall with a 36" inseam. Between the leg and my size 13 foot, I had over four feet of reach in a kick. And I still went for the low kick when confronted with an attacker. I can deliver them quickly and I can deliver them without telegraphing my intent, and more importantly, I can deliver them without being grabbed.

A strong kicking game enhances your ability to defend yourself one hundred fold, IMO.

I respectfully disagree. I suspect that most Kukki taekwondoists would as well. A strong kicking game enhances your ability to fight in WTF competition 100 fold and probably provides many benefits in terms of flexibility and cardio.

Kicks are handy tools to have in your toolbox, but only if you know when to use which kick. Save all the spinning hook kicks, high kicks, tornado and jumping kicks for competition. Keep a nice selection of low kicks to augment your hand techniques and you have a good start.

Most importantly, be realistic about what each technique can actually do outside of a sportive environment and understand why taekwondo competition looks like it does.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A friend of mine likes to use "flying side kick" to attack his opponent's leading leg joint. When a 180 lbs weight coming down 45 degree at your weak knee joint, you would worry about yourself first. His "flying side kick" can not only cover the distance (enter the kicking range and then enter the punching range) but also put his opponent in defense mode. That's excellent strategy IMO.

The low side kick to the knee joint is also an excellent defense skill. Your opponent has to put weight on his leading leg in order to punch you. When he does that, it will give you a chance to "stomp" on his knee (I prefer to call it "stomp" and not "kick"). Whether or not you can hurt him with that kick is not important, your "stomp' just make you to enter into your punching range safely.

 

[Sledgehammer]

I'd like to comment on this statement, as I have heard it many, many times over the years.

No, but most attackers are prepared for kicks to the midsection and kicks above the waist and spinning kicks in particular, are hard to hide. Kicks are slower than punches and are easier to see coming, which is why the idea that people cannot deal with them simply because they're uncommon is a falacy. Kids kick all through elementary, middle and high school, and with TKD schools being ubiquitous for over two decades, don't be so sure that a side kick is as exotic as you think it is. Also, you have far fewer options with kicking than you do with hand techniques.

I have used kicks in SD. All have been aimed at knee level and lower.
I respectfully disagree. I suspect that most Kukki taekwondoists would as well. A strong kicking game enhances your ability to fight in WTF competition 100 fold and probably provides many benefits in terms of flexibility and cardio.

Kicks are handy tools to have in your toolbox, but only if you know when to use which kick. Save all the spinning hook kicks, high kicks, tornado and jumping kicks for competition. Keep a nice selection of low kicks to augment your hand techniques and you have a good start.

Most importantly, be realistic about what each technique can actually do outside of a sportive environment and understand why taekwondo competition looks like it does.

I agree with low leg strikes being the most effective. I feel far quicker when kicking low compared to high. TKD is filled with useless kicks, IMO, that I would never use. The thing with a spinning back kick is that it is incredibly powerful and can be thrown very quickly as part of some sort of combo. "Black Dynamite" is a TKD fighter who fights in Mauy Thai now. He knocks all kinds of people out with spinning back kicks. Now granted, he is a trained fighter, but these are fighters who are prepared to defend these kinds of kicks and are still getting knocked out. How much more could a well trained TKD fighter knock out a street thug with the same type of kick if the right situation presented itself?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree with low leg strikes being the most effective. I feel far quicker when kicking low compared to high. TKD is filled with useless kicks, IMO, that I would never use. The thing with a spinning back kick is that it is incredibly powerful and can be thrown very quickly as part of some sort of combo. "Black Dynamite" is a TKD fighter who fights in Mauy Thai now. He knocks all kinds of people out with spinning back kicks. Now granted, he is a trained fighter, but these are fighters who are prepared to defend these kinds of kicks and are still getting knocked out. How much more could a well trained TKD fighter knock out a street thug with the same type of kick if the right situation presented itself?

Well, that's kind of the key, isn't it? There are stories of people using head level kicks to effect in self defense. The option presented itself and the defender was able to take advantage of it. But a high kick is one of those things that you train in a lot and may never use outside of the dojo. While fighting like a TKD player is inadvisable, springing a particular technique that is out of the ordinary or unexpected at just the right time while fighting in an appropriate fashion when defending one's self is another matter.

All of those kicks that may seem useless actually have a use. It may only be in competition, but it's still a use. Throwing a perfect spiral pass is something you won't use outside of football. It's useful, but only within a certain context. A good TKD player also knows the difference between TKD playing and actual fighting. Context makes all the difference.

 

[chrispillertkd]

No, but most attackers are prepared for kicks to the midsection and kicks above the waist and spinning kicks in particular, are hard to hide.

I'd be very interested in getting your information regarding this statement.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know how many of you can still do your high kicks when you are 70 years old. If certain combat skill cannot be with you through your old age, there is something wrong with those skill.

When you are 70 years old, can you use your

- spin hook kick? It may be very difficult.
- front kick? You may still be able to it.
- punches? You definitely should have no problem to do it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'd be very interested in getting your information regarding this statement.

Pax,

Chris

No hard data. Perhaps my experience is outdated, but given the near magical qualities ascribed to groin kicks, and the comparative success that I've seen people defend against them (regular people, not trained fighters), yes, I'd say most attackers are not likely to be overly shocked because someone tries to kick them in the gut/groin.

Perhaps a better phrasing would be that 'most attackers are familiar with kicks to the midsection' rather than prepared for, as prepared for implies more than just familiarity.

Regarding my statement, "and kicks above the waist and spinning kicks in particular, are hard to hide," I don't have data excepting personal experience. Not to say that they cannot work; my point is that the legs being strong and possessing reach doesn't mitigate that kicking high takes inherently more time than punching high. And most attempts at spinning kicks that I've personally seen outside of competition usually end up with the kicker on the ground or off knocked off balance.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't know how many of you can still do your high kicks when you are 70 years old. If certain combat skill cannot be with you through your old age, there is something wrong with those skill.

When you are 70 years old, can you use your

- spin hook kick? It may be very difficult.
- front kick? You may still be able to it.
- punches? You definitely should have no problem to do it.

According to Hee Il Cho (I don't have the book with me, but it is either his Taegeuk Hyung book or his Master's Kick), after he got older (and not old), he was no longer able to do some of the flashy kicks that he had been able to when he was younger. And that was with consistent practice and training.

 

[TKDTony2179]

This isn't meant as an insult to sport TKD. Those high, flashy kicks take a lot of training, conditioning and skill. And in the right environment i.e. controlled, they can be great. Outside of that environment, not so much. Daniel puts it well in this statement;

Naw man I was just thinking of a simple roundhouse about waist high. Even those are easy to catch.