Student testing the teacher

[clfsean]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.

I teach CMA at a local college & have had that happen before with kids of all ages there. I'm a normal sized guy that's about average for a 37 year old in decent shape. They would think that I'm soft because I'm not all cut up or look like a ... whatever they were expecting.

I've thumped a few of them before at times. Not hard mind you & never with malice, just to teach a lesson in intent & focus on the technique. It normally only takes once & it never happens again. A line has to be drawn before the student looses respect for the teacher. The students need to see why they're students & not teachers.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

When I was a young buck I used to ask questions on techniques and a few "what ifs" but there was no question about sensei's ability. He told me once he wouldn't be standing still either. We were always supposed to resist a little to test their technique but if we resisted too hard he'd show us a technique for that: a knee to the ribs or reverse an armbar to an outside wristlock and hit you on the way down. It didn't take long before we knew the happy medium. If we wanted the extra lesson he was happy to oblige.

 

[kidswarrior]

The students need to see why they're students & not teachers.

A key point. :asian:

 

[Ceicei]

Although this is typical of teenagers and young adults, I have seen this type of testing the teacher from student adults (late 20's-30's).

Their reasoning for testing does not necessarily seem to be to challenge, but more to see "show me how this really works". It appears to be more of a personality type (among the adults) than just an age factor (as with teens/young adults pushing the authority boundary).

Have any of you seen this too? There are quite a few stories I could share.

- Ceicei

 

[RITFencing]

Have any of you seen this too? There are quite a few stories I could share.

Ceicei, here's one that happened to a friend of mine at a tournament.

His background, by the way, is that as a competitive fencer he was a 2 time Junior (under 20) national men's sabre champion, and made several US National teams at the Cadet (under 17), Junior and Senior (anybody) level. This means you fence in all the world cup events and the world championships, and to make a team you need to be in the top 4 fencers in the country your event. So, the dude knows his stuff.

Here's a quote from his blog:

"the girl, that was another story. she was like a petulant child. after every bout she loudly let everyone know she didnt want to be there. when i told her to make parry riposte in simo, she tried it and did it totally wrong, huge steps, parry so close to her body i am sure i saw the ground light flicker. then she would look at me and roll her eyes.


she dropped all her bouts, and stormed out. her dad asked me if she was done, i said she was done before she got there, and walked back to try to help the other kid. it turns out 100% were promoted, so even though she would have been last or 2nd worst seed, she could have fenced a DE. she was long gone from the venue, got black carded. oh well."

While you may not know all the fencing terminology, I think the student's actions there are still pretty clear. Her coach drove 90 minutes each way to help her and one other student at this tournament.

 

[charyuop]

I might have not understood well the question...but shouldn't you teachers be happy about that?
I mean if you are on the mat having the student practicing with you and when you do the technique on the student, shouldn't you be happy that the student tries and find an opening in your defense? Shouldn't that make teachers' training more worthlike?

 

[kidswarrior]

I might have not understood well the question...but shouldn't you teachers be happy about that?
I mean if you are on the mat having the student practicing with you and when you do the technique on the student, shouldn't you be happy that the student tries and find an opening in your defense? Shouldn't that make teachers' training more worthlike?

I think it's a question of the student's motivation. If they're just trying to make the teacher look bad, then as the teacher I'll make sure they 'understand it'. But if they respectfully and honestly believe they've found a hole in the technique, by all means, let's explore and see. As a teacher, I'm always looking to get better, and admit I don't know it all by any means; and yes, I have no problem telling this to the whole class and giving credit where due.

 

[foggymorning162]

Hi thanks everyone for answering. I guess what really bothered me about it was that he is an advanced student, he will be taking his pretest for black in 2 weeks, so he should have known better, there isn't anything wrong with saying "hey I want to try to get out of the hold" or "what if I did this or that" and your uke should make the technique as realistic as possible for training, but when the teacher is using you to demonstrate it's disrespectful to try and not allow them to do the technique all of our teachers are more than willing to go over things after class or if he had said that he wanted to try and resist I'm sure the teacher would have let him -after he demonstrated the technique to the rest of the class-. I thought the teacher handled it well I'm just not sure if I would have.

 

[kidswarrior]

I guess what really bothered me about it was that he is an advanced student, he will be taking his pretest for black in 2 weeks, so he should have known better....

OOOOHHHHH, in that case, your teacher was a better man than I. :asian: If a soon-to-be-black-belt intentionally and publicly tried to make me look foolish when I was teaching, well, he'd be on his own with the results.

How could one go through the process of training for black and not develop some humility, if for no other reason than just knowing how fragile and vulnerable the human body really can be? I mean, when you've been hurt enough, and seen friends hurt, you should begin to understand that we can any of us be hurt. Just takes the right guy(s) at the wrong time on an off day.

 

[jks9199]

I might have not understood well the question...but shouldn't you teachers be happy about that?
I mean if you are on the mat having the student practicing with you and when you do the technique on the student, shouldn't you be happy that the student tries and find an opening in your defense? Shouldn't that make teachers' training more worthlike?

There's a time and a place. If I'm trying to teach a particular technique or demonstrate a certain principle to a student who's trying to learn it -- it doesn't help them if I have to change in the middle and do something else. The time for increasing the resistance is while you're working on it with your partner. Start out letting them work it, then after a few times through, as they get the idea, increase the speed or resistance, or try a different angle.

Hi thanks everyone for answering. I guess what really bothered me about it was that he is an advanced student, he will be taking his pretest for black in 2 weeks, so he should have known better, there isn't anything wrong with saying "hey I want to try to get out of the hold" or "what if I did this or that" and your uke should make the technique as realistic as possible for training, but when the teacher is using you to demonstrate it's disrespectful to try and not allow them to do the technique all of our teachers are more than willing to go over things after class or if he had said that he wanted to try and resist I'm sure the teacher would have let him -after he demonstrated the technique to the rest of the class-. I thought the teacher handled it well I'm just not sure if I would have.

It happens a lot as students get close to black belt. They're feeling confident, and they want to look good in front of their classmates... Egos are a terrible thing to behold when they grow a little too large!

 

[Ceicei]

OOOOHHHHH, in that case, your teacher was a better man than I. :asian: If a soon-to-be-black-belt intentionally and publicly tried to make me look foolish when I was teaching, well, he'd be on his own with the results.

How could one go through the process of training for black and not develop some humility, if for no other reason than just knowing how fragile and vulnerable the human body really can be? I mean, when you've been hurt enough, and seen friends hurt, you should begin to understand that we can any of us be hurt. Just takes the right guy(s) at the wrong time on an off day.

I've also seen the "testing the teacher" from the brown belts. It almost seems to be as if their thinking goes, "I'm almost a black belt, let's see how good I really am," and in a sense, challenge the instructor (sometimes in a subtle way). The advanced students also have seen their teachers make mistakes (the lower ranked belts usually can't tell if an error is made because they don't generally have enough experience to know the difference) so they are aware that the infallibility of instructors is a myth. This may feed into certain personality types to press to see where they stand against the skills of a black belt.

- Ceicei

 

[Steel Tiger]

I've also seen the "testing the teacher" from the brown belts. It almost seems to be as if their thinking goes, "I'm almost a black belt, let's see how good I really am," and in a sense, challenge the instructor (sometimes in a subtle way). The advanced students also have seen their teachers make mistakes (the lower ranked belts usually can't tell if an error is made because they don't generally have enough experience to know the difference) so they are aware that the infallibility of instructors is a myth. This may feed into certain personality types to press to see where they stand against the skills of a black belt.

- Ceicei

Its interesting that you mention the idea of an instructor being infallible. My teacher often forgot things and would say so. The next class he would have checked his notes and remembered what had been forgotten. It created a much easier atmosphere in classes. As far as I know he only ever had one student who genuinely challenged his authority and he was an adult (it is a university school).

There is another point that I have just thought about. My teacher's school is at a university so there are a lot of students coming in from small towns in the middle of nowhere. More than once we have seen the "big fish in a small pond" transition to being a "small fish in a big pond" and have real problems finding their place.

 

[kidswarrior]

I've also seen the "testing the teacher" from the brown belts. It almost seems to be as if their thinking goes, "I'm almost a black belt, let's see how good I really am," and in a sense, challenge the instructor (sometimes in a subtle way). The advanced students also have seen their teachers make mistakes (the lower ranked belts usually can't tell if an error is made because they don't generally have enough experience to know the difference) so they are aware that the infallibility of instructors is a myth. This may feed into certain personality types to press to see where they stand against the skills of a black belt.

- Ceicei

Interesting point, Ceicei. Having not promoted anyone to near-black belt yet (only two years into my group), haven't seen this in earnest. Guess I have s.th. to look forward to. :ultracool I will say that in one of the two main schools I attended during my mostly-student days, it would have been suicide to physically challenge the instructor. In the other, it would have been foolish, but maybe possible.

Its interesting that you mention the idea of an instructor being infallible. My teacher often forgot things and would say so. The next class he would have checked his notes and remembered what had been forgotten. It created a much easier atmosphere in classes.

I believe your instructor was a wise man, Steel Tiger, as well as an honest one. Any of us who claims never to make a mistake or forget anything (as in, 'brain cramp') is just not being honest with him-/herself. Everyone else is under no such illusion about us.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I was watching a class of teenagers yesterday and when the teacher used one of the students (about 13 or 14 and very talented) as uke the student tried to fight it and lock up the teacher well needless to say he wasn't very successfull the teacher made him tap out. I spoke with the teacher after class and he said he expects it from time to time with the teen boys to test him, but that he didn't like the way he did it though (the wrong time and the wrong way to go about it) and that he would talk to him at another time. I guess what I'm wondering is, has this happened to you, and how did you handle it. I thought it was very disrespectful and I'm not sure I could have been as calm as the instructer was.

I have been tested before. Teenage and adult males have been the ones to test.

I did have a nice one at a seminar. While I was explaining a technique I was facing the crowd/class and this guy moved to strike me. I was monitoring his stick with my empty hand and realized unconsciously/consciously that it was gone so I moved to block automatically. He was so surprized that I had blocked him without even looking at him.

Some may have been upset by such an action. I just smiled and let it go.

 

[MJS]

I might have not understood well the question...but shouldn't you teachers be happy about that?
I mean if you are on the mat having the student practicing with you and when you do the technique on the student, shouldn't you be happy that the student tries and find an opening in your defense? Shouldn't that make teachers' training more worthlike?

But should that take away from the main lesson? IMO, no, it should not. I'm not saying its not important to work the 'what if' part of a technique, but get the basic technique down first, then worry about the 'what if' phase. Progressively add resistance. But if a student can't get the basic defense, they're not going to be able to figure out what to do when the person starts to counter.

 

[charyuop]

But should that take away from the main lesson? IMO, no, it should not. I'm not saying its not important to work the 'what if' part of a technique, but get the basic technique down first, then worry about the 'what if' phase. Progressively add resistance. But if a student can't get the basic defense, they're not going to be able to figure out what to do when the person starts to counter.

As I said I might have misunderstood and probably I did. I thought we were talking about a teacher and a student on the mat practicing. Reading all replies it seem the case here is during a technique demonstration for the rest of the class...in which I agree with you, Uke has to play the "crush dummy" so that the rest of the class can learn and start practicing it.

 

[charyuop]

Its interesting that you mention the idea of an instructor being infallible. My teacher often forgot things and would say so. The next class he would have checked his notes and remembered what had been forgotten. It created a much easier atmosphere in classes. As far as I know he only ever had one student who genuinely challenged his authority and he was an adult (it is a university school).

There is another point that I have just thought about. My teacher's school is at a university so there are a lot of students coming in from small towns in the middle of nowhere. More than once we have seen the "big fish in a small pond" transition to being a "small fish in a big pond" and have real problems finding their place.

I have heard my Sensei many times saying I might not be doing this technique perfectly myself or seen him a couple of times with a technique not going exactly the way he wanted. I have never thought my Sensei is perfect and I am sure a more experienced Aikidoka might point out if there is something he is doing wrong (coz for sure I can't, his techniques to me look all perfect). But the quality that I see in my Sensei, and I think every teacher should have, is not the one of never make mistakes (I guess we agree only God can), but it is the quality of being in control. Making a mistake but recovering it immediately without giving time to the partner on the mat to even realize what just happened is what makes a Sensei "infallible".

 

[cbursk]

Jeepers, when this topic first posted I never realized how common this was.

I had my first instance of this in years happen just the other day with one of my young 2nd degrees who recently started wrestling with his high school team. After gently demonstrating an arm bar take down to the class and getting back up, he suddenly stiffened up and attempted to take my back. The first second I was a little confused. I remember thinking what is this kid doing? Then I realized that the old man needs to show he still has some juice once in a while. I let him give it the old college try for a few seconds and then locked him into a triangle choke and started to slowly apply pressure to give him a chance to tap. I was little disappointed that it took him a second to realize that he had not only dug a hole but jumped right into it.

Afterward? The class was really pumped to see the old man still had it and I played it off with him like it was no big deal. I did mention it to him the next class to make sure that he realized that I was only demonstrating a technique and not free wrestle though.

 

[tradrockrat]

heh heh - try being 21 and teaching a college self defense class. I got at least one or two students in every class that thought they HAD to show me how tough they were. Never once had an issue with female students though. Most of the time it would be from somebody bigger than me (I was about 160-170 at the time) who just refused to believe that size isn't the only thing. The good news is that they genuinely wanted to learn, so all I ever had to do was up the speed and contact from "Slow-mo" to 3/4 speed (maybe a little more, but I didn't tell them that ) and put them down on the mat.

Problem solved.

Did have one student walk out after class and never return though - felt bad about that

 

[charyuop]

Curiosity...has a student ever manged to surprise any of you teachers and actually pull out a good counter you were not able to get out of?