Can Students Fail Tests?

[evenflow1121]

I ve failed people before, I dont really see a problem with it, I never charged anyone for a rank test, failing is a part of life, it defines us and can make us stronger if we choose to over come it. You have a bad day, or you may think you know the material well, but you may not actually know it as well as you think, so you fail the test, you come back a few months later and pass it, it makes you a better person. It teaches you how to value your rank, if you choose to quit then perhaps you didnt really deserve that black belt. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Laurentkd]

Many people have said that they understand allowing adult students to fail but not children. And I agree that no one should be set up for failure. However, I failed a blue belt (5th gup) test when I was 8 years old because I could not break a 6X12 board with a sidekick in three attempts. In someways this is one of my proudest moments because I stood in line watching the rest of my rank group test (and pass) and bowed out, sat down and watched the rest of testing and did not start crying until I was out of the dojang (well, bawled is really more accurate). But the thought of quitting never entered my mind, I tested a month later and passed no problem. But the fact that I was able to fail and still show good composure and respect to my fellow students, as well as being able to get back on the horse again- I feel that said more about me than any test that I passed.

I realize I was not your "average" 8 year old TKD kid (anyone still involved in any of the arts even after just a couple years is not average!). I just wonder how we are hurting kids today by NOT ALLOWING them to experience these types of situations and learn how to handle them. At some point all these kids will be adults, and will they only then start to learn how to handle disappointment and how to get over those tough hurdles? How much are we really helping them?

 

[jks9199]

Many people have said that they understand allowing adult students to fail but not children. And I agree that no one should be set up for failure. However, I failed a blue belt (5th gup) test when I was 8 years old because I could not break a 6X12 board with a sidekick in three attempts. In someways this is one of my proudest moments because I stood in line watching the rest of my rank group test (and pass) and bowed out, sat down and watched the rest of testing and did not start crying until I was out of the dojang (well, bawled is really more accurate). But the thought of quitting never entered my mind, I tested a month later and passed no problem. But the fact that I was able to fail and still show good composure and respect to my fellow students, as well as being able to get back on the horse again- I feel that said more about me than any test that I passed.

I realize I was not your "average" 8 year old TKD kid (anyone still involved in any of the arts even after just a couple years is not average!). I just wonder how we are hurting kids today by NOT ALLOWING them to experience these types of situations and learn how to handle them. At some point all these kids will be adults, and will they only then start to learn how to handle disappointment and how to get over those tough hurdles? How much are we really helping them?

Kids aren't stupid. They know when they've really been tested or who really scored more points even if the adults don't keep score. To me, it's insulting not to keep score or honestly test them. Passing standards can be reasonably age appropriate (I don't expect an 8-year old to be able to repeat information in the same way or have the same coordination a 13-year old or an adult would, for example) -- but the test has to be honest. Otherwise, they know... And they know when rank is given for actual achievement versus being a pat on the back.

Kids aren't miniature adults -- but they're still people and should be treated like people.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Oh man not allowing kids to fail is WOW how will they be prepared for the real world later in life. Its scary what could be caused by that.

 

[searcher]

If a student cannot fail then it is NOT a test, it is a give-away. They need the possibility of failure to keep them on their toes and to help them to continue working hard. It is that little kick in the pants when they start to get full of themselves.

 

[morph4me]

I believe that in order to pass a test a student, any student, has to meet the minimum requirements for the rank they are being promoted to. I also believe that every student I promote, to any rank, is a reflection of my competence as an instructor.

I don't pass or fail students, their performance earns them the next rank, or doesn't. I have had some students that didn't earn their rank the first time they tested and, as others have said, if they continue to train, they often become the most skilled practitioners.

 

[grydth]

Not allowing failure at any level to me is providing false self-esteem, which will explode like a fragile pane of glass in a real world situation. I've already explained how my kids' dojo handles it.

There's another side, though. Years ago I tested for blue belt in a kempo school in MA and took a serious beating, which I saw happen a lot and had no problem with - this was the late 1970's after all. Three weeks later I watched some fat kid waltz through the same test for the same belt I had bled for without sweating much less bleeding. Summoning some courage, I asked Sensei how this guy got the same rank I did. Here is what he told me: You come here to toughen up to get through graduate school and then you're joining the Army. I believe we provided that to you on your last test. This kid's mother wants him to gain self esteem while she gets time free to do who knows what. The way I see it, I have given both of you what you paid for.

I did get what I paid for, and that training later saved my life. Maybe instead of always criticizing dojos, parents and students should reassess their own values and goals.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

For it to be a test there always has to be possbility of failure. I don't think you should let them grade till they're ready for it, but no point giving them a free ride, they won't learn from it.
Make it so they have to work for the test, but don't test them till they can do the work.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I test each student individually, privately, with invited black belts to watch and critique from other styles, and I video each test. I have a three tiered scoring system. Under 80% they fail and must wait at least 30 days to retest. 80-87% I consider Pass on Condition - and the student must make the necessary corrections and retest with 95% or higher before being allowed to continue to the new material. 88% and up is a straight Pass, and they need to make necessary corrections and demonstrate understanding of them before going to new material.

New belts and diplomas are given on a different date in a public ceremony.

Thus far I haven't had anyone fail, but I did have two that came into the Pass on Condition category.

 

[calmone]

I agree with a lot of what all of you are saying. I do however have some sticking points. Pre-testing someone and then telling them they can or cannot test isn't that the same as testing them? If a student makes a mistake at testing and you fail them is that fair. I make mistakes everyday of my life. Testing is for mental and physical perserverence. If a student tests and is not prepared they should fail. However, if you have a student that is mentally prepared and makes a mistake but corrects it, or, a student freezes not because they arent prepared but because of anxiety, shouldn't the tester or their instructor ease that. Because, not all of us are public speakers. I have a student that would freeze at every testing he had. But, when he would compete at tournaments he would win 1st or 2nd place everytime. We talked to his parents he had the same problem in school when they said test he would panic. We adjusted the testing a little. 3 years later he is doing just fine. What good would it have done if i had failed him 8 testings in a row. I did fail him the first time. If they give 100percent of themselves and make a small mistake. I do not believe in failing them. If they give 60percent and do everything correctly they should fail. They did not make an effort. Kind of like testing in school that is why they have a scale to their passing or not.
Testing should be public and each student should be based passed or failed on their individual effort. 1st and foremost do they know what they are doing.
2nd do they put forth the effort to impress the panel. 3rd are they physically and mentally capable of learning the next rank. Testing should never be based on if they make a mistake unless they make the mistake repetitively

 

[jks9199]

I agree with a lot of what all of you are saying. I do however have some sticking points. Pre-testing someone and then telling them they can or cannot test isn't that the same as testing them? If a student makes a mistake at testing and you fail them is that fair. I make mistakes everyday of my life. Testing is for mental and physical perserverence. If a student tests and is not prepared they should fail. However, if you have a student that is mentally prepared and makes a mistake but corrects it, or, a student freezes not because they arent prepared but because of anxiety, shouldn't the tester or their instructor ease that. Because, not all of us are public speakers. I have a student that would freeze at every testing he had. But, when he would compete at tournaments he would win 1st or 2nd place everytime. We talked to his parents he had the same problem in school when they said test he would panic. We adjusted the testing a little. 3 years later he is doing just fine. What good would it have done if i had failed him 8 testings in a row. I did fail him the first time. If they give 100percent of themselves and make a small mistake. I do not believe in failing them. If they give 60percent and do everything correctly they should fail. They did not make an effort. Kind of like testing in school that is why they have a scale to their passing or not.
Testing should be public and each student should be based passed or failed on their individual effort. 1st and foremost do they know what they are doing.
2nd do they put forth the effort to impress the panel. 3rd are they physically and mentally capable of learning the next rank. Testing should never be based on if they make a mistake unless they make the mistake repetitively

I disagree with you on the question of mistakes.

A student testing should know the material well enough not to make mistakes, and be able to perform those skills, at the appropriate level and under the pressure of the testing environment. Instead, you seem to be saying that if they ordinarily know the material -- but can't show it under pressure, they should be passed. In other words, to me, you're saying the test itself is meaningless.

I'm not saying that there should be no allowance for minor mistakes or even needing to restart a form once, maybe (rarely) twice. I don't expect a person testing for green belt to demonstrate brown or black belt skills, and I don't look for a 1st level black belt to have the polished skills of a more advanced black belt. The students response to their errors is something else I'd consider; if they freeze and lock up... they probably won't pass. If they adapt and roll with it... they might.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I allow for very slight mistakes not big ones. Just because we are human adn mistakes happen. But the material has to be known under pressure, what if the student had to use it in a real life situation. Thats real pressure as I am sure alot of you know.

 

[bluemtn]

I allow for very slight mistakes not big ones. Just because we are human adn mistakes happen. But the material has to be known under pressure, what if the student had to use it in a real life situation. Thats real pressure as I am sure alot of you know.

I agree. I've seen fellow students fail because at test time, they just couldn't do what they were able to at a pre- test or class. Mistakes happen, and nerves sometimes will get in the way a little too much. At the test, we're given 3 tries at a tech. that we're not doing right, because of pre- testing. If you didn't do well at the pre- test, you wouldn't be at the test. Of course, you're allowed to redo the test and free of charge at regular class time.

 

[calmone]

Brandon Fisher said:
I allow for very slight mistakes not big ones. Just because we are human adn mistakes happen. But the material has to be known under pressure, what if the student had to use it in a real life situation. Thats real pressure as I am sure alot of you know.

this is what i was trying to get at i just didnt say it correctly

 

[Kacey]

I agree. I've seen fellow students fail because at test time, they just couldn't do what they were able to at a pre- test or class. Mistakes happen, and nerves sometimes will get in the way a little too much. At the test, we're given 3 tries at a tech. that we're not doing right, because of pre- testing. If you didn't do well at the pre- test, you wouldn't be at the test. Of course, you're allowed to redo the test and free of charge at regular class time.

That's what I do too.

 

[Balrog]

Been thinkin' about tests and testing of late. I've never failed a student who took a test from me. There's plenty I've pulled aside and told to wait another month. But to my way of thinking, if a student gets up on test day unprepared...

That's the teacher's fault. There's no way the student should have to face the humiliation of doing poorly and not receving rank for their teacher's innatention and slipshod work.

That's true up to a point. We require students to break boards when testing for higher rank. We have had students in the past who have broken boards by the carload in practice, then they just can't buy a board break on testing day. It happens, and it's a learning experience for the student about perseverance.

Again, I've told lots of students to wait another month. But I don't fail tests. You could say that the 'test' is really an exhibition and celebration, but the student is tested for rank in each class?

That's my preference as well. I prefer to have a student sit out a testing rather than test when unprepared.

 

[bookworm_cn317]

I've failed some tests. The only one that really bothered me was failing my blue belt test in March. I felt like I let my instructor down.

 

[mjd]

I beleave if a student fails a test it's always the fault of the instructors, the instructors job is to teach, prepare, evaluate, examine, make judgements on the students behalf. The ulitate goal is to teach a student to defend themselves, this is the judgement instructors have to make, will they, can they do this, but in saying that roman wasn't built in a day.

I also believe that all students must be treated fairly, so I use pre-test, when students have met the required class time and have demonstrated they understand and can preform the material, they are invited to a pre-test, this is not a pass/fail it is a where are you at and what do we need to work on. Pre-test are schedule once pre-month, testing is randum, this way I can tell a student he or she is not ready and give them the reasons why.

Pre-testing is done outside of the normal class time and done with a panel of uppper belts, this also gives some good experience to ranks just below black belt to serve on the panel.

I think this works well, I have been doing this for 7 years now and since only one time I had an issue with failure, I had group of 7 teenagers that didn't take it serious so I stopped the test gave them a 20 minutes leacture, about half way through and gave them 30 days to think it over and re-tested them, they all but one came back and re-tested and did well.

 

[jdinca]

I beleave if a student fails a test it's always the fault of the instructors, the instructors job is to teach, prepare, evaluate, examine, make judgements on the students behalf. The ulitate goal is to teach a student to defend themselves, this is the judgement instructors have to make, will they, can they do this, but in saying that roman wasn't built in a day.

I also believe that all students must be treated fairly, so I use pre-test, when students have met the required class time and have demonstrated they understand and can preform the material, they are invited to a pre-test, this is not a pass/fail it is a where are you at and what do we need to work on. Pre-test are schedule once pre-month, testing is randum, this way I can tell a student he or she is not ready and give them the reasons why.

Pre-testing is done outside of the normal class time and done with a panel of uppper belts, this also gives some good experience to ranks just below black belt to serve on the panel.

I think this works well, I have been doing this for 7 years now and since only one time I had an issue with failure, I had group of 7 teenagers that didn't take it serious so I stopped the test gave them a 20 minutes leacture, about half way through and gave them 30 days to think it over and re-tested them, they all but one came back and re-tested and did well.

I've gotta disagree with your first sentence. If a student isn't ready and allowed to test, you have a point. Even in this case, some students will insist they be allowed to test and if they won't listen, then one of the best ways to get the point across is to allow them to test and fail. This has to be very selective though, based on the student. But if an instructor thinks a student is ready, and the student locks up for whatever reason and has a bad test, how can that be the fault of the instructor?

Pre-tests are a great idea. It's pretty standard for us to do a "belt prep" lesson before a student tests. I will agree that the instructor is being graded on the students test, just as much, if not more, than the student is.

 

[Kacey]

I've gotta disagree with your first sentence. If a student isn't ready and allowed to test, you have a point. Even in this case, some students will insist they be allowed to test and if they won't listen, then one of the best ways to get the point across is to allow them to test and fail. This has to be very selective though, based on the student. But if an instructor thinks a student is ready, and the student locks up for whatever reason and has a bad test, how can that be the fault of the instructor?

Pre-tests are a great idea. It's pretty standard for us to do a "belt prep" lesson before a student tests. I will agree that the instructor is being graded on the students test, just as much, if not more, than the student is.

I'm going to agree and disagree - students can fail; if they can't, it's not a test - it's a demonstration. However, whether or not a student tests is up to me - if I haven't cleared the student to test, and s/he shows up thing s/he'll test, s/he'll have quite a shock. I have had students fail, usually due to nerves, although I have had the occasional student who thinks s/he's hot stuff blow off testing (walk through techniques, not try, etc.) and fail that way - but it's fairly rare, because I won't let a student test if s/he can't pass - that's poor instruction - but neither is passing at testing guaranteed.

We always do a pretesting to determine who is ready to test - and my assistant instructor and I decide together who is and is not ready to test, and then the students are informed of our decision. If you're not ready, you don't test - and I've never had problems with it; in fact, when I've told students they aren't testing, the usual response is "thank you - I didn't think so either" - including one girl who was 13 at the time, who told me that she knew she wasn't ready, and if I had told her to test, was going to ask if she could wait for the next testing, because she didn't want to get up, do badly, and embarrass herself or the class.