Strict vs Laid Back schools?

[Buka]

Thanks man. The funny thing is that there was a record amount of snow last year here in Tokyo but I was in Bangkok and my wife had to do the shoveling. Which island were you on?

I lived on Maui, twice. I just went out in March looking for work. If all goes well, I should be back there before winter. I don't think I can survive another winter in Boston.

Spent some time on Oahu, too. Lived for four months on Wakiki driving pettycab in the seventies, years later lived in Aiea (a town with no consonants!) while the dogs were in quarantine.

If I get back out there - and even though it looks good right now, when you're old you don't count on anything until it actually happens - maybe we can grab a cup of coffee.

 

[Andrew Green]

Whats your guys preference?

Personally, I prefer a strict, high-discipline gym with a total Hard A** as my coach/ instructor

There are some things that it matters with. Any school that is not strict with safety for example is a bad school. Schools that don't start and end on time are unprofessional. If they aren't strict with sanitary things like letting people continue with cuts or skin infections you should run away quick. Professionalism, safety and sanitation should always be strict.

Things like bowing, "Yes sir/ma'am", running class like a drill instructor... that's all just preference. I don't like it that way, I did at one point, but it just leads to ego inflation and the wrong sort of dynamics. It's important in the military, but we aren't military and some aspects of military discipline are really not healthy for people not in the military IMO. But if that's what a person wants, go for it.

I train because it's fun. I get to go to work everyday and do what I love with a great group of people and teach people from 3-years old to 60. All of them are there to have fun. They might have other reasons for being there like losing weight, confidence, sport, self-defence, etc. But if it isn't fun those things aren't going to be realized.

My opinion is that martial artists sometimes take themselves way to seriously. Yes, there are some great benefits that can come from martial arts, but they can come from other things too. There are also some great benefits that come from approaching things with fun in mind, and there has been a lot of research that shows people learn best when they are having fun.

Discipline to me is not something a instructor should do... if it comes to that the instructor already failed. Discipline is when people do what they are supposed to, when they are supposed to without being forced by a external force. I want the kids to listen and pay attention because they want to, not because they are afraid not too. So yes, we joke, we make funny faces, we play skill building games, but they also work their buts off, hopefully smiling and laughing the entire time, and hopefully me and my other instructors are also smiling and laughing along with them

 

[chan jackson]

I think its very important to work hard but retain a friendly attitude,. My friend is a young instructor so he bonds well with students but he also pushes them to train hard.

 

[kuniggety]

If I get back out there - and even though it looks good right now, when you're old you don't count on anything until it actually happens - maybe we can grab a cup of coffee.

Sounds good. Lots of good coffee to be had in Hawaii.

 

[WaterGal]

I think it really depends. Sometimes you need to be strict, in order to maintain order and keep the class moving. Especially if you're teaching kids. If you're too laid back, people who aren't really self-motivated will slack off, disrupt class, etc. But some teachers are too strict, to the point of being mean, which is no good either. So I think there needs to be a balance. As to whether a school should be more formal or informal, I think either is fine, as long as formality isn't about building up the teacher's ego, or the informality doesn't undermine the teacher's role as class leader.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Starting your classes on time is very important. It is a lack of respect to those attending not to do so.

As Andrew mentioned having a well cleaned facility is also very important and professional!

In regards to group cohesiveness treating everyone with respect and helping each other to improve is very important and can be achieved easily.

All of the above can be done with either a strict or laid back approach. Personally, I am very laid back, relaxed with everyone on a first name basis. That is how I teach but it does not mean that someone else who has a more strict approach is doing it wrong.

 

[geezer]

Of course, starting and ending on time are important in large classes. When dealing with small groups of adults, I've found it to be more of a cultural and situational thing depending on the instructor. In modern societies people have busy lives and I agree it is important to respect that. On the other hand I have trained in small, close-nit groups under instructors who were very "flexible" about keeping to the clock. On was a well known Chinese instructor. When we trained with him, you never knew how long it would go. By American standards this might seem "unprofessional" as Andrew said, but it was still an incredible opportunity.

That said, if you are running a business, you have to be businesslike!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Of course, starting and ending on time are important in large classes. When dealing with small groups of adults, I've found it to be more of a cultural and situational thing depending on the instructor. In modern societies people have busy lives and I agree it is important to respect that. On the other hand I have trained in small, close-nit groups under instructors who were very "flexible" about keeping to the clock. On was a well known Chinese instructor. When we trained with him, you never knew how long it would go. By American standards this might seem "unprofessional" as Andrew said, but it was still an incredible opportunity.

That said, if you are running a business, you have to be businesslike!

The last Wing Chun group I was associates with was like this. It would start around 9:00am and you got there when you got there and it lasted as long as it lasted. And this was the best Wing Chun group I was ever a part of. The comradely and skill levels were off the chart IMHO. And my Taiji sifu has a starting time but if your late, your late. Most are not but it does not matter if you are. And as far as ending time.....who knows, it depends on how long he feels like doing push hands, or how long he feels like making us train. But if you can't stay and have to go, have a nice night, see you next week. Could be an old school TCMA thing I guess, but I rather like it and I have not once thought of it as unprofessional

But then neither is run as a business

 

[Steve]

Of course, starting and ending on time are important in large classes. When dealing with small groups of adults, I've found it to be more of a cultural and situational thing depending on the instructor. In modern societies people have busy lives and I agree it is important to respect that. On the other hand I have trained in small, close-nit groups under instructors who were very "flexible" about keeping to the clock. On was a well known Chinese instructor. When we trained with him, you never knew how long it would go. By American standards this might seem "unprofessional" as Andrew said, but it was still an incredible opportunity.

That said, if you are running a business, you have to be businesslike!

I completely understand that things go long sometimes. The way I've seen it done that I believe is the best of both situations is to, first, start timely. That's just simple respect. And then, when the class is scheduled to end, end the class. Then, anyone who has to leave can do so, while anyone who wants to stay for some additional work can also do so.

As a student, when the class hasn't been formally ended, it's a question mark... do I leave? Can I just go? Should I ask permission? Am I going to miss something important? But if you, for example, line everyone up, thank them for their hard work and then say, "Class is formally over, but I would like to continue working on x, y and z. It's optional but open to anyone who can stay."

 

[Xue Sheng]

As a student, when the class hasn't been formally ended, it's a question mark... do I leave? Can I just go? Should I ask permission? Am I going to miss something important? But if you, for example, line everyone up, thank them for their hard work and then say, "Class is formally over, but I would like to continue working on x, y and z. It's optional but open to anyone who can stay."

Oh ye of little TCMA experience

 

[Steve]

Oh ye of little TCMA experience

Little? That's being generous. But just because something is doesn't mean it must be.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Little? That's being generous. But just because something is doesn't mean it must be.

And just because something must be doesn't mean I have any clue as to what that is

 

[Buka]

As for the time a class starts - if you, or anybody else is being generous enough to take the time to teach me, being even a second late (or not early) is just not acceptable. Exceptions, which there are in life, are thought of in advance.

As for that hour after a lot of classes - as they say in great stories, you had to be there. (might be something to look into where you train.)

 

[PhotonGuy]

Laid back. I prefer the more care-free attitude of the Brazilians. No bowing, no "sensei" crap, just fist bumps and bro/sis hugs.

Care free attitude of the Brazilians? They might be laid back about some stuff but not about stuff such as belts. From what I know it usually takes about 2 years to go up a belt in most BJJ places.

 

[Andrew Green]

Care free attitude of the Brazilians? They might be laid back about some stuff but not about stuff such as belts. From what I know it usually takes about 2 years to go up a belt in most BJJ places.

Time to belt is really a separate sort of discussion. You can have 2-years to black belt and super strict defined criteria, or 10 years to black and have it kind of fuzzy where there are no real set requirements, just whenever you seem ready and your instructor decides to do it.

 

[geezer]

OK... Laid back attitude or not, I would hope that proficiency would be at least as important as time in awarding rank, whether denoted by belt or some other method. Time is just one factor in attaining proficiency, experience and maturity in any discipline.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Chinese arts can be pretty formal. In my WT school we do bow in and bow out for class and are reminded to show respct for instructors by using correct titles (for the most part), responding with a "Thank you Sifu" or "Thank you Si-bak" when being corrected, especially if a visiting instructor is there. Thats more formality. My sifi is strict in some things in the way the art is taught, i.e. has specific things for different students depending on their program and doesn't want senior students teaching more junior students certain things without his approval, but thats mostly to avoid bad habits, not a formality or respect thing.
We joke and carry on with each other in class, and as long as you arent standing there chatting instead of working the drill..... no problemo.
I think a certain amount of formality in keeping with tradition of the art makes sense. In the end I am showing up to be taught a skill that my teacher posesses, and I do not. I might be paying money for the privelege, but unlike hiring a contractor or a cabbie, my instructor does not work for me or on my terms.

 

[PhotonGuy]

OK... Laid back attitude or not, I would hope that proficiency would be at least as important as time in awarding rank, whether denoted by belt or some other method. Time is just one factor in attaining proficiency, experience and maturity in any discipline.

I would base rank entirely on proficiency and not on time.

 

[geezer]

Chinese arts can be pretty formal. In my WT school we do bow in and bow out for class and are reminded to show respct for instructors by using correct titles (for the most part), responding with a "Thank you Sifu" or "Thank you Si-bak" when being corrected, especially if a visiting instructor is there. Thats more formality. My sifi is strict in some things in the way the art is taught, i.e. has specific things for different students depending on their program and doesn't want senior students teaching more junior students certain things without his approval, but thats mostly to avoid bad habits, not a formality or respect thing.
We joke and carry on with each other in class, and as long as you arent standing there chatting instead of working the drill..... no problemo.
I think a certain amount of formality in keeping with tradition of the art makes sense. In the end I am showing up to be taught a skill that my teacher posesses, and I do not. I might be paying money for the privelege, but unlike hiring a contractor or a cabbie, my instructor does not work for me or on my terms.

A good description of the "family" model of teaching common in TCMA schools, as compared to the "military" influenced structure more common in some Japanese and Korean schools. The Kenpo schools I've seen talk about their "Chinese" influences, but usually follow the "military" model.

BTW as I have roots in the WT lineage, my experience was much like yours, Piedmont.

 

[Drose427]

I would base rank entirely on proficiency and not on time.

I disagree entirely

The BJJ instructor at the gym I do kickboxing in is a BB thats is fairly disrespectful, to both TMA's, the boxing coaches for not being at every class because of things like sponsorship meetings and setting up cards, heck even to some of his own students if they start missing class. He's just always trash talking something or someone, everytime I've come in to work on my TSD kicks before the boxing coach gets there. Its pretty off putting, its depressing because hes the highest ranking BJJ instructor within 3 hours of my area.

The BJJ side of the gyms profile picture on FB was him and Kurt osiander flipping off the camera.

Thats cool for your own profile, but thats a very unprofessional way to run your school. Especially when you're calling your school a place to learn "respect" or "discipline"

Theres more to rank than the physical.

I dont care how good your side kicks are, if you're using them to kick dogs, bully kids, or just be a punk in general, Im not promoting you.

Nobody in my association would, and rightfully so