Street fight against a jabber/boxer

[Kage-Ronin]

Would any of you guys care to explain how the dynamics of keeping your hands up against a jab differs so greatly from the dynamics of having your hands up after a punch?

Are you referring to after the "lunge punch" the gets so much bad press?

If so, then I would think then it's because one is at the end of movement and off balance, vulnerable to being grabbed or countered?

For example the guy who boxes left lead, if he doesn't retract his jab quick enough, the opponent will right cross over his jab hand because at that moment he has no gaurd and in vulnerable.

If thats not what you're referring to, then ????

 

[Seattletcj]

Would any of you guys care to explain how the dynamics of keeping your hands up against a jab differs so greatly from the dynamics of having your hands up after a punch?

-ben

I dont really understand the question. The jab is a punch.
Anyway, I'm gonna keep my hands up no matter what. I'd rather not get knocked out then to stay within the boundaries of an image.

 

[bencole]

Are you referring to after the "lunge punch" the gets so much bad press?

Kage-Ronin, you are joining a conversation that has been going on for a few weeks now. The answer is "yes" but please go and read these other threads on "Realistic Training" and "Seeing the Light" (since moved to the MMA part of the board) before you jump in.

If so, then I would think then it's because one is at the end of movement and off balance, vulnerable to being grabbed or countered?

If you are off balance when you punch, you are punching incorrectly. Sorry.

I dont really understand the question. The jab is a punch.

I know what a jab is. Now, given that you are "keeping your hands up" to defend against this punch, how can having your hand(s) up as a defense be considered "good" while having your hand(s) up as an offense be considered "bad"?

The question is pretty straightforward, imo.

Is there a magical pill that transforms hands up from being defensive vs. offensive? If not, then why not *TRAIN* in keeping your hand out after a punch?

(Hint: It can act as "defense" at the same time, then switch to offense, no defense, no offense, no defense.)

I'll check back tomorrow to see if you guys can come up with a reasonable reason why it is acceptable to have one's hands up in defense, but not in offense.....

Good luck!

-ben

 

[Kreth]

Kage-Ronin, you are joining a conversation that has been going on for a few weeks now. The answer is "yes" but please go and read these other threads on "Realistic Training" and "Seeing the Light" (since moved to the MMA part of the board) before you jump in.

And let's make sure this thread doesn't turn into another tired rehash of TMA vs. MMA like those two did, mmmkay?

 

[Tenchijin2]

Ben, having your hands "UP" is not anything like having your hands "out" after a punch which is what was being discussed previously.

 

[Kage-Ronin]

Kage-Ronin, you are joining a conversation that has been going on for a few weeks now. The answer is "yes" but please go and read these other threads on "Realistic Training" and "Seeing the Light" (since moved to the MMA part of the board) before you jump in.

MR Cole, I will go read those threads like you suggested, however I am not "jumping in" as you put it. I contributed to this thread earlier and have been following it on an infrequent basis. Please see post #4 of this thread.

If you are off balance when you punch, you are punching incorrectly. Sorry.

Yup I agree 100%. ANY overextension will lead to being out of balance. And if you are then no matter what art you are practicing then you are wrong.

And let's make sure this thread doesn't turn into another tired rehash of TMA vs. MMA like those two did, mmmkay?

Was this in reference to my bringing up boxing? If so, I was just trying to use that particular movement (the jab) as an example to try and understand the question.

I know what a jab is. Now, given that you are "keeping your hands up" to defend against this punch, how can having your hand(s) up as a defense be considered "good" while having your hand(s) up as an offense be considered "bad"?

Ummmm it's not? Isn't Ichimonji an example of keeping your hands up for offense as well as defense?
Or how about hoko? The hands are up, not necassarily out, but can be used both for offense and defense.

 

[Seattletcj]

I know what a jab is. Now, given that you are "keeping your hands up" to defend against this punch, how can having your hand(s) up as a defense be considered "good" while having your hand(s) up as an offense be considered "bad"?

Ok I think I know what your saying now. But As Aric pointed out, having the hands "up" and "out" are different things.

The question is pretty straightforward, imo.
Is there a magical pill that transforms hands up from being defensive vs. offensive? If not, then why not *TRAIN* in keeping your hand out after a punch?

Because
1) out is not up, as most people use the term.
2) You are more likely to get knocked out, if your arm is out :idea:

I'll check back tomorrow to see if you guys can come up with a reasonable reason why it is acceptable to have one's hands up in defense, but not in offense.....
Good luck!

You can see that hands up protecting the head are different from hands "up" at chest level or extended out, right?

 

[Don Roley]

Ben, having your hands "UP" is not anything like having your hands "out" after a punch which is what was being discussed previously.

Oh? Have you considered that maybe you have not heard some of the stuff others here have? You probably know that I complain a lot about how there is a lot of mistaken instruction still making the rounds of the non- Japan Bujinkan.

And the talk I see here about the punch, etc is not what I am being told to do in Japan. I have been told quite plainly that you are never out of kamae if you are doing good taijutsu. If you are punching, you are in kamae or you are punching wrong. If you do a punch correctly, then you are in a variation of something like ichimonji at the end.

Of course, I do not think that most of the American Bujinkan can even throw a punch to the standards that the Japanese used to be held to.

 

[Tenchijin2]

Oh? Have you considered that maybe you have not heard some of the stuff others here have? You probably know that I complain a lot about how there is a lot of mistaken instruction still making the rounds of the non- Japan Bujinkan.

And the talk I see here about the punch, etc is not what I am being told to do in Japan. I have been told quite plainly that you are never out of kamae if you are doing good taijutsu. If you are punching, you are in kamae or you are punching wrong. If you do a punch correctly, then you are in a variation of something like ichimonji at the end.

Of course, I do not think that most of the American Bujinkan can even throw a punch to the standards that the Japanese used to be held to.

Regardless, Don, my point is 100% accurate. ''Hands up" and "arm extended" are NOT THE SAME THING. I don't care what you think of the relative quality of either.

My point is that trying to equate leaving your arms out after a punch with having your hands up to gaurd your head (or whatever else) is very different. Not whether one is good and one is not.

Okay? Don't change the subject.

 

[Don Roley]

My point is that trying to equate leaving your arms out after a punch with having your hands up to gaurd your head (or whatever else) is very different.

Are they? Are you talking about getting into a boxing stance instead of a Bujinkan kamae, or are you merely saying that in your experience you don't see how punching and kamae are part of the same thing?

 

[Tenchijin2]

This is ridiculous. I have no idea what you're talking about. You know nothing about my experience, Don. Really.

Note to all moderators: this forum has become absurd. Until some of the stupidity that turns all threads into pointless arguments is reigned in, this will be the standard. Please make careful note of who derailed this, and who clearly wants to argue the same issues over, and over again.

Enjoy! I've got better things to do.

Aric Keith

 

[bydand]

Okay? Don't change the subject.

Good advice, kind of ironic considering you are one of a few who has changed the subject from what to do with a jabber/boxer to the old, beat to frigging death, undefendable (only because both sides will NEVER change their opinion) argument about hand out or not after a lunge punch. Go ahead and argue that this is directly tied to the original discussion, but before you do, carefully reread the whole thread and you will see, it went from keep hands up, to the argument about leaving it out after a lunge punch.


Back to the original subject, There has been a couple of posts about boxers/jabbers forgetting about their feet. I also have found this to be true, except for their footwork they might as well be legless beings. When you do take a swipe at their legs, you can almost see the change in attitude from "I'm gonna pound this fool into a pulp." To: "Oh crap, I cannot go down." and their whole positioning changes to compensate. I like that moment personally. Granted I can't say I have seen it a lot, once is too much really, but it has been there with everybody who fancied themselves a boxing type.

NO I DON'T MEAN A REAL TRAINED BOXER!! Those guys have some serious skill and training and are as aware of their feet as any MA's i know.

 

[Tenchijin2]

Bydand, you're full of crap. I SAID NOTHING regarding the 'perennial debate' at all. I only pointed out that having your hands up is not the same as having them out. Please show me where I said anything else.

Please, quote it. I'll wait.



I did not change the subject of the thread. I have no interest in the topic of whether or not leaving the arm extended is good or bad. It was Ben who decided to bring that into the conversation. And Don who decided to carry it forward.

What is going on with this place?

 

[Seattletcj]

I'm curious as to why the mods havent jumped in here. These were not the OPs questions. To leave arm out or not. American vs Japanese methods. etc. etc.

hmmmmmm.



....keeping your hands up to protect your head vs a jab.
Where is the problem? :erg: Is it that controversial ?

ROFL

 

[bydand]

Bydand, you're full of crap.

No need to get personal. I am not saying you are the one who derailed the thread, just you are one who jumped into the fray when it began and started to take it down the flame path with comments that were boarderline personal, and now made the jump to personal insults. If I had not worked around construction workers for the past 25 years, being told I'm full of crap might have meant something, but shoot, I get told worse than that by lunch usually, and by people I know.

 

[Kreth]

Admin Note:

Thread locked pending Admin review.

Kreth/Jeff Velten
MT Senior Moderator