Street BJJ

[ballen0351]

Attempting to stand up with someone barreling down on you actually makes you more vulnerable than staying in the seated position.

Staying on the ground raising your butt off the ground placing your hand on the ground to propel the "scoot" is far more vulernable. Like i said if you have time and distance to scoot he's not barreling that close yet you can get up to a knee and fight to your feet

 

[Hanzou]

Staying on the ground raising your butt off the ground placing your hand on the ground to propel the "scoot" is far more vulernable. Like i said if you have time and distance to scoot he's not barreling that close yet you can get up to a knee and fight to your feet

Uh, you can scoot away (or towards) someone if they're fairly close to you. Attempting to stand up when someone is breathing down your neck isn't advisable. Hence why we have the technical standup, and various seated guards.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

But Hanzou, in the scenario you portrayed if you have the room to butt scoot you have the ability to stand up. There are lots of ways to stand up beyond just standing up in base as taught in BJJ.

 

[ballen0351]

Uh, you can scoot away (or towards) someone if they're fairly close to you. Attempting to stand up when someone is breathing down your neck isn't advisable. Hence why we have the technical standup, and various seated guards.

your scenario was no room to back away. Again you put 1 hand down at least 1 foot down raise your butt to scoot you have no way to defend the boot that's coming at your face. If the attacker is so close you can't get up then your better off staying down and using one of the snazzy guards you go on and on about and not trying to scoot at all

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, you should definitely be wearing clothes if you are outside. Clothes help prevent getting scars all over your body from concrete.

???? I agree. Shorts, t-shirts, go a long way to prevent the cement from tearing up the skin. I can tell you haven't had the joy of sliding on concrete.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But Hanzou, in the scenario you portrayed if you have the room to butt scoot you have the ability to stand up. There are lots of ways to stand up beyond just standing up in base as taught in BJJ.

The lady in the video that he posted actually states in a self-defense situation on how to get up when someone is coming towards you when you are on the ground. Not only did she say that, she said that once you are up, you'll have the option to fight the person standing or run away. By the way she said it, gave me the impression that being on the ground isn't the go to strategy in a self defense situation.

 

[Hanzou]

your scenario was no room to back away. Again you put 1 hand down at least 1 foot down raise your butt to scoot you have no way to defend the boot that's coming at your face. If the attacker is so close you can't get up then your better off staying down and using one of the snazzy guards you go on and on about and not trying to scoot at all

Actually you may have to scoot in deeper in order to get the hooks in for sweep, or wrap the legs for a takedown. Alternatively, you can scoot to either side for an attack from angle.

 

[Hanzou]

The lady in the video that he posted actually states in a self-defense situation on how to get up when someone is coming towards you when you are on the ground. Not only did she say that, she said that once you are up, you'll have the option to fight the person standing or run away. By the way she said it, gave me the impression that being on the ground isn't the go to strategy in a self defense situation.

No one said that this was a "go to move".

The only folks who can possibly make this a go to move are elite grapplers.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No one said that this was a "go to move".

The only folks who can possibly make this a go to move are elite grapplers.

I didn't say a go to move. I said go to stategy, meaning staying on the ground.

This is exactly what I said "By the way she said it, gave me the impression that being on the ground isn't the go to strategy in a self defense situation."

 

[Hanzou]

I didn't say a go to move. I said go to stategy, meaning staying on the ground.

This is exactly what I said "By the way she said it, gave me the impression that being on the ground isn't the go to strategy in a self defense situation."

It's the same general meaning. Again I never said it was a go to strategy or go to move, instead it's an option That can possibly get you out of a very bad situation.

That position isconsidered a guard for a reason.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's the same general meaning. Again I never said it was a go to strategy or go to move, instead it's an option That can possibly get you out of a very bad situation.

That position isconsidered a guard for a reason.

Nope you were talking about the "scooting" and attacking. The lady spoke about the using the scoot in 2 contexts; one in competition and the other in self defense. When she got to the self defense aspect she literally explained the use of it in a self defense application. I'm just saying what was in the video that you posted.

 

[Hanzou]

Nope you were talking about the "scooting" and attacking. The lady spoke about the using the scoot in 2 contexts; one in competition and the other in self defense. When she got to the self defense aspect she literally explained the use of it in a self defense application. I'm just saying what was in the video that you posted.

Yes, and in the self-defense context it was used as either an escape mechanism or an attack mechanism.

In both cases you are butt scooting within a self-defense context.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Last night was interesting as a world class leg lock guy had a rough day in the TUF house against an average MMA guy in his weight. I like Ryan a bunch and I was totally rooting for him as I enjoy that he is different in the ring. I thought he was going to beat Saul but..... Saul used simple, very basic counters and shut down everything and turned it into his style of fight. As I reiterated before I don't think Ryan Hall or any other leg lock expert is going to be butt scooting at anyone on the street! That is ridiculous as I have mentioned before! The "experts" would be laughing about this as well. I don't think any of them would do this on the street. If someone comes butt scooting at you try not to laugh to hard and frankly if they do it with bad intentions they probably are going to be in a world of hurt! lol

What you as a practitioner can do though is if you are not going to become a "leg lock" expert yourself is spend considerable time on learning the defenses to these locks. One of my biggest pet peeves about the current state of BJJ is that everyone is trying to do the next fancy move and not working their defenses as much as they should be! The basics in some camps need to be emphasized more!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here are a couple of very basic leg lock defenses that everyone should know. Note: there are slightly different ways to do these techniques shown in the videos ie. variations....

The first video shows a very, very basic leg lock defense from the ground. The big key point he glosses over is getting your foot flat which is the key to success.

The second video shows the basic of basic standing leg lock defense of the pull out and then second variation with the basic push/pull defense once on the ground.

There are a lot more of course and one of my favorites is pushing down the other persons legs and scrunching them and then pulling out your leg. I did not find that one on video but Saul extensively trained it in the episode of the TUF house so you can find it there.

 

[Hanzou]

Last night was interesting as a world class leg lock guy had a rough day in the TUF house against an average MMA guy in his weight. I like Ryan a bunch and I was totally rooting for him as I enjoy that he is different in the ring. I thought he was going to beat Saul but..... Saul used simple, very basic counters and shut down everything and turned it into his style of fight. As I reiterated before I don't think Ryan Hall or any other leg lock expert is going to be butt scooting at anyone on the street! That is ridiculous as I have mentioned before! The "experts" would be laughing about this as well. I don't think any of them would do this on the street. If someone comes butt scooting at you try not to laugh to hard and frankly if they do it with bad intentions they probably are going to be in a world of hurt! lol!

Yes, quite ridiculous.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

If she is planning on using butt scooting during a violent encounter then well that is ridiculous and a very poor tactical approach. Instead she should be utilizing any opening in space to get back to her feet and then she would have mobility back.

You are right this video is quite ridiculous!

 

[Steve]

Last night was interesting as a world class leg lock guy had a rough day in the TUF house against an average MMA guy in his weight. I like Ryan a bunch and I was totally rooting for him as I enjoy that he is different in the ring. I thought he was going to beat Saul but..... Saul used simple, very basic counters and shut down everything and turned it into his style of fight. As I reiterated before I don't think Ryan Hall or any other leg lock expert is going to be butt scooting at anyone on the street! That is ridiculous as I have mentioned before! The "experts" would be laughing about this as well. I don't think any of them would do this on the street. If someone comes butt scooting at you try not to laugh to hard and frankly if they do it with bad intentions they probably are going to be in a world of hurt! lol

What you as a practitioner can do though is if you are not going to become a "leg lock" expert yourself is spend considerable time on learning the defenses to these locks. One of my biggest pet peeves about the current state of BJJ is that everyone is trying to do the next fancy move and not working their defenses as much as they should be! The basics in some camps need to be emphasized more!

I agree that butt scooting for most of us would be a bad idea. But, I don't agree with your point here, if I understand your point correctly. You seem to be playing down Saul's skills (average mma guy?) in order to play up the significance of his victory over Ryan on TUF. I'd be somewhat careful about the conclusions drawn from that fight.

Saul is big, strong and a good, technical striker, who has won 7 of his 10 victories by submission. Saul is a well rounded grappler. His submission wins include a north/south choke, an anaconda (which is a type of head and arm choke) and a reverse triangle, including the more common RNC wins. He's got a good chance of winning the TUF competition. Saul is not an "average MMA guy" by any stretch.

And all of that said, it was a majority decision. Both rounds were close, and at least one judge gave Ryan Hall a round. It wasn't like Ryan Hall got totally beat up and outclassed.

If the point is that, for most of us it would be a bad idea to try to butt scoot and shoot for a leg lock in a street fight, I can agree. If the idea is that Ryan Hall should be concerned that an "average MMA guy' could keep him from executing his gameplan, I think you're off base.

 

[Hanzou]

If she is planning on using butt scooting during a violent encounter then well that is ridiculous and a very poor tactical approach. Instead she should be utilizing any opening in space to get back to her feet and then she would have mobility back.

You are right this video is quite ridiculous!

What if she gets knocked down, and doesn't have the space to stand back up?

Hence the reason we have a variety sweeps and movements from that position against standing opponents. Sometimes scrambling back to your feet simply isn't an option.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Steve, I watched that fight with three people who are really knowledgeable about mma. We were all rooting for Ryan and not one of us thought he won a round. Sault beat him every round in our opinion. By "average" that is no slight on Saul just that he probably will not be anything more than a workman like mma competitor. He probably won't be a champion and may only if he is lucky have a fight or two in the UFC. Yes, Saul still has a chance of winning the TUF house but he certainly isn't the favorite going forward. If Saul makes it to the UFC and is a consistent winner at that point I would definitely agree that he is way above average! So time will tell in that regard. I actually see Ryan having more upside than him going forward potentially in the UFC because Ryan is well more unique and he will have a following watching him. Ryan is exciting to watch and I would pay, meaning buy a UFC card right now with him on it because of his unique skill set. I am on the edge of my seat watching his fights because I understand that his skills could make it very exciting!

My point is and will remain that it is tactical idiocy to "butt scoot" on the street. It is ridiculous no matter where you fall on the spectrum of being or not being a leg lock expert. It is in general a stupid idea. I have little doubt that Hall, etc. would say the same thing in that they would want to get to their feet and be standing rather than sitting on their butt with a lack of mobility! The opening video in this thread is/was a joke by the people who made it. It is really unbelievable that anyone would think that they would want to "butt scoot" on the street in a fight or that that anyone would worry about really anyone coming and "butt scooting" at them. It is pretty ridiculous!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

What if she gets knocked down, and doesn't have the space to stand back up?

Hence the reason we have a variety sweeps and movements from that position against standing opponents. Sometimes scrambling back to your feet simply isn't an option.

If she can butt scoot, she can certainly stand up. If she can't "butt scoot" then she should be trying to sweep. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any sweeps from any position on the ground. What is wrong is butt scooting to sweep in a violent situation when you could be standing up and gaining your mobility so that you could run, etc.!