Street BJJ

[Hanzou]

you may not stop it from a very few elite but im sure you could if a normal guy tried it

"Normal guy" as in a "normal" Bjj practitioner?

The black guy wasn't able to stop it when the white guy (Bjj practitioner) pulled it on him (1:50 mark). The only reason he didn't get his leg snapped was because the Bjj guy held back. Now granted, that isn't the same type of entry as what we're talking about here, but that's a perfect example of how a leg lock can be quickly applied within a grappling sequence, and there's very little an (unarmed) person can do about it if they don't know how to counter it.

 

[Hanzou]

Because they have limited their mobility to a very small skill set. They have limited their ability to move by sitting on their *** while their opponent is standing. The opponent has the ability to move faster because he is on his feet. He also has the ability to strike downward with more power. (physics) This is a huge tactical disadvantage. If you butt scoot on the street you are reducing your odds and giving an opponent an advantage. This is pretty easy to understand! We are not teaching butt scooting to our military or law enforcement! Nor is it even remotely a go to move for personal protection.

And yet we have plenty of examples of those same guys pulling that entry off in NHB competitions, and they're never kicked or punched in the face while sitting on their butts. In fact, there's cases where those attempts actually make the standing person's situation worse because their body is off balance, and it makes the takedown even easier to accomplish.

Not to mention that in the real world we are a tool bearing monkey

. Most guy's have some kind of tool on them ie. knife or gun. Roughly about 30% or more. Last BJJ party I was at everyone had a knife even if they had never trained with one. I counted because I notice such things. Out of about 15 guy's everyone had a clip showing and three were actively carrying a concealed handgun. If you are on your butt and the other guy has a tool I pity you!

If you're unarmed and fighting an armed opponent, I pity you regardless.

Listen, I like the guard, open guard as well and believe everyone should train in them. Especially women as a potential counter rape skill set. However, no one and I mean no one not any BJJ instructor that I know is going to recommend butt scooting for self-defense.

Um, where did I recommend butt scooting for self defense?

 

[kuniggety]

As a BJJ practitioner, I thought the video was funny. It looks really silly but there are some elite grapplers who have become really really really good at using it. I don't remember Hanzou ever saying it was a good self defense posture or even a posture that 99.99% of BJJ practitioners should take but if one of those handful pull it on you, you should run away.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This whole thread is about a humorous video put out by a couple of BJJ guy's where they are taking a shot/joke/laugh at butt scooting.

I have no idea what you are doing here other than to actively stir up trouble or muddy the waters. You have been talking about pulling off butt scooting, rolling heel hooks the entire thread. Lauding how you would run away from someone butt scooting at you. I have consistently pointed out that butt scooting, rolling into a heel hook or knee bar is probably not the best option on the street! Pretty simple to understand!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

As a BJJ practitioner, I thought the video was funny..

I think it is funny to! I also don't think the guy's in the video will be doing any butt scooting in a fight on the street. I think they were having a good laugh at the idea as well!

 

[Hanzou]

As a BJJ practitioner, I thought the video was funny. It looks really silly but there are some elite grapplers who have become really really really good at using it. I don't remember Hanzou ever saying it was a good self defense posture or even a posture that 99.99% of BJJ practitioners should take but if one of those handful pull it on you, you should run away.

Yep, that's exactly what I said. I don't know why that simple argument is so hard for certain people to understand.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well we could probably go round and round and round and round here but I have to go teach, train. However, I will leave you with this thought I don't think Ryan Hall or anyone else mentioned is going to be butt scooting or utilizing rolling heel hooks, knee bars anytime soon in a bar. I think even they would rather stick to basics in a violent encounter rather than go for the low percentage/high difficulty move. See you on the next thread Hanzou and no matter what know that I do enjoy and appreciate your posts!

 

[Buka]

The OP.......was pretty darn funny. How funny might depend on your particular past or how well your tongue fits into your cheek.

Looking at it in any other way....is pretty darn funny, too.

 

[ballen0351]

"Normal guy" as in a "normal" Bjj practitioner?

The black guy wasn't able to stop it when the white guy (Bjj practitioner) pulled it on him (1:50 mark). The only reason he didn't get his leg snapped was because the Bjj guy held back. Now granted, that isn't the same type of entry as what we're talking about here, but that's a perfect example of how a leg lock can be quickly applied within a grappling sequence, and there's very little an (unarmed) person can do about it if they don't know how to counter it.

so your saying you can't defend a leg lock from a normal BJJ player?

 

[Hanzou]

so your saying you can't defend a leg lock from a normal BJJ player?

Depending on their level, no. There's some purple, brown, and black belts who have excellent leg locking skills that outpace my ability to defend against them.

 

[ballen0351]

Depending on their level, no. There's some purple, brown, and black belts who have excellent leg locking skills that outpace my ability to defend against them.

I said the normal average part time BJJ student, if your 10 years of BJJ training hasn't taught you to defend against a leg lock perhaps you need a new school

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I said the normal average part time BJJ student, if your 10 years of BJJ training hasn't taught you to defend against a leg lock perhaps you need a new school

It depends on what you mean by "normal" and "average." Statistically speaking, the average BJJ student is probably a white belt or blue belt who will quit within a couple years of starting.* Since Hanzou is a purple belt with 10 years of experience, he could probably defend against just about any technique from the average BJJ white or blue belt.

Hanzou may be thinking of average in the sense of the average guy he spars with. Depending on his school, that average sparring partner might be a more experienced upper belt.

BTW - the notion of "hasn't your training taught you to defend against X, Y, Z" is kind of silly. We normally learn to defend against a given technique around the same time we learn to use the technique ourselves. After that most of our practice in applying the technique is against someone who already knows how to defend it. It's an arms race of offensive skill against defensive skill. I know how to defend leg locks, but that doesn't mean I can stop Ryan Hall from leglocking me. I know how to defend punches, but that doesn't mean I can stop Floyd Mayweather from punching me. I know how to defend kicks, but that doesn't mean I can stop Giorgio Petrosyan from kicking me. (Sad to say, there are a whole lot of guys out there who are not at that level but could still punch, kick, or submit me despite my attempts to defend myself. It just makes me feel better to only list the world-class professionals who could do so.)

*(All statistics pulled out of my butt. I don't have any hard scientific data on the subject.)

 

[ballen0351]

It depends on what you mean by "normal" and "average." Statistically speaking, the average BJJ student is probably a white belt or blue belt who will quit within a couple years of starting.* Since Hanzou is a purple belt with 10 years of experience, he could probably defend against just about any technique from the average BJJ white or blue belt.

Yes the normal average student I didnt think that was such a hard concept to grasp. The average guy at the average gym prob trains twice a week 3 to4 hours a week then adds a few extra hours a month on a weekend open mat or special training session

Hanzou may be thinking of average in the sense of the average guy he spars with. Depending on his school, that average sparring partner might be a more experienced upper belt.

Even still he shouldn't be totally helpless he should have some basic skills to at least have a basic defense.

BTW - the notion of "hasn't your training taught you to defend against X, Y, Z" is kind of silly. We normally learn to defend against a given technique around the same time we learn to use the technique ourselves. After that most of our practice in applying the technique is against someone who already knows how to defend it. It's an arms race of offensive skill against defensive skill.

Its not silly you should have a basic understanding after 10 years to put up some type of defense you may not win but you should be able to come up with some defense. After all certain folks here at MT run all over the forum telling others how BJJ is the best thing since sliced bread. If that were true it should not take 10 years to be able to defend yourself against an attack

I know how to defend leg locks, but that doesn't mean I can stop Ryan Hall from leglocking me. I know how to defend punches, but that doesn't mean I can stop Floyd Mayweather from punching me. I know how to defend kicks, but that doesn't mean I can stop Giorgio Petrosyan from kicking me. (Sad to say, there are a whole lot of guys out there who are not at that level but could still punch, kick, or submit me despite my attempts to defend myself. It just makes me feel better to only list the world-class professionals who could do so.)

I thought we were past the fantasy of needing to defend ourselves against the few top fighters in the sport. Im talking about normal guys since we have already said were not going to be defending ourselves from Mayweather or Hall or insert top name here______________

*(All statistics pulled out of my butt. I don't have any hard scientific data on the subject.)

sounds about right to me

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes the normal average student I didnt think that was such a hard concept to grasp. The average guy at the average gym prob trains twice a week 3 to4 hours a week then adds a few extra hours a month on a weekend open mat or special training session

For how long? There's a significant difference in ability between someone who has been training 4 hours per week for 6 months and someone who has been training 4 hours per week for 6 years.

Even still he shouldn't be totally helpless he should have some basic skills to at least have a basic defense.

Its not silly you should have a basic understanding after 10 years to put up some type of defense you may not win but you should be able to come up with some defense.

Hanzou didn't say he didn't know any defenses or that he couldn't attempt to defend himself. He said he might not be able to (successfully) defend himself against a more experienced and skilled practitioner.

After all certain folks here at MT run all over the forum telling others how BJJ is the best thing since sliced bread. If that were true it should not take 10 years to be able to defend yourself against an attack

I'm not sure about folks, plural. I can think of exactly one person here who fits that description. Anyway, I'm not sure it's a particularly effective argument against his glorification of BJJ to snark when he admits that he can be beaten at BJJ by someone who is better at BJJ than he is.

I thought we were past the fantasy of needing to defend ourselves against the few top fighters in the sport. Im talking about normal guys since we have already said were not going to be defending ourselves from Mayweather or Hall or insert top name here______________

Well, as I pointed out in the same paragraph, there are plenty of people who are far below being world champions who are still sufficiently better than I am that their offense will trounce my defense. It's just not as rhetorically effective to use those folks as examples because you probably would have no idea who they are.

sounds about right to me

I pulled my guesstimate that the average BJJ student is a white or blue belt with less than 2 years experience from the same place that you pulled your idea that the average student trains 3-4 hours per week - general observation over years in the martial arts. I'm pretty certain neither of us has access to a scientifically rigorous survey detailing the average rank, class attendance, and years of experience among the general population of BJJ practitioners.

 

[ballen0351]

For how long? There's a significant difference in ability between someone who has been training 4 hours per week for 6 months and someone who has been training 4 hours per week for 6 years.

what's the average amount of years at your school. I did a quick check of the top 4 BJJ schools here and they have all been open less then 6 years. So if I had to guess I'd say there average is 3 to 4 years. So high white belt low blue. That fits with what I see when I go in the gyms I've trained at all of them at one point or another over the last few years. Again a normal (NOT professional or high-level fighter) student. I would hope the higher the rank the less likely the person would be to go around attacking people that we would need to defend against them. Not because the rank means anything but more because most thug criminals dont have the work ethic to keep training at a consistent level for years.

Hanzou didn't say he didn't know any defenses or that he couldn't attempt to defend himself. He said he might not be able to (successfully) defend himself against a more experienced and skilled practitioner.

I asked can you defend against the normal or average guy in a BJJ class he said No. Then he said there are better-trained people out there well I assumed thats a given there are always going to be better-trained people in the world.

I'm not sure about folks, plural. I can think of exactly one person here who fits that description. Anyway, I'm not sure it's a particularly effective argument against his glorification of BJJ to snark when he admits that he can be beaten at BJJ by someone who is better at BJJ than he is.

Well there is more then one member of the BJJ mafia here on MT. Saying the only way to defeat the unstoppable BJJ leg lock is to run for your life.... yeah it fits the Mafias narrative just fine.

Well, as I pointed out in the same paragraph, there are plenty of people who are far below being world champions who are still sufficiently better than I am that their offense will trounce my defense. It's just not as rhetorically effective to use those folks as examples because you probably would have no idea who they are.

yes but again you should atleast be able to put up some kind of defense if you have 10+ years of training in any style

I pulled my guesstimate that the average BJJ student is a white or blue belt with less than 2 years experience from the same place that you pulled your idea that the average student trains 3-4 hours per week - general observation over years in the martial arts. I'm pretty certain neither of us has access to a scientifically rigorous survey detailing the average rank, class attendance, and years of experience among the general population of BJJ practitioners.

Well of course were not speaking scientifically here just two guys tossing around ideas

 

[Hanzou]

I said the normal average part time BJJ student, if your 10 years of BJJ training hasn't taught you to defend against a leg lock perhaps you need a new school

Where did I say I can't defend against ANY leg lock? I said that I can't defend against every leg lock thrown my way because there are "normal" Bjj guys who are very good at leg locks, and are better at applying leg locks than I am at defending leg locks. Further, with the advent of Youtube and other grappling sources, you get competition guys trying new things on the mat all the time that you're simply not prepared for until you experience it first hand.

And there are normal, average, part time, (insert description) Bjj students who are blue, purple, brown, and black belts who also happen to be VERY good at leg locks.

Again, if we look at the video I posted, its better to have some defenses against leg locks and general grappling chains than no defense at all.

 

[ballen0351]

Where did I say I can't defend against ANY leg lock? I said that I can't defend against every leg lock thrown my way because there are "normal" Bjj guys who are very good at leg locks, and are better at applying leg locks than I am at defending leg locks. Further, with the advent of Youtube and other grappling sources, you get competition guys trying new things on the mat all the time that you're simply not prepared for until you experience it first hand.

It was a simple question I asked can you defend a leg lock from a normal student I didnt ask if you can defend every leg lock known to man, I didnt ask if you can defend againt top secret youtube yet to be discovered leg locks

And there are normal, average, part time, (insert description) Bjj students who are blue, purple, brown, and black belts who also happen to be VERY good at leg locks.

So to you a normal Bjj student is a black belt?

Again, if we look at the video I posted, its better to have some defenses against leg locks and general grappling chains than no defense at all.

true

 

[Hanzou]

It was a simple question I asked can you defend a leg lock from a normal student I didn't ask if you can defend every leg lock known to man, I didn't ask if you can defend againt top secret youtube yet to be discovered leg locks

But then you countered my answer with the notion that I said that I can't defend against leg locks period. I never made that statement.

So to you a normal Bjj student is a black belt?

This seems to be inching into semantics. Are you using "normal" as another word for "majority"? My use for the word "normal" is someone who is just an average person who isn't an incredible athlete, or lives at a Bjj gym. There are Bjj black belts who are teachers, lawyers, cops, doctors, etc., and just happen to have some pretty sick leg locks.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Saying the only way to defeat the unstoppable BJJ leg lock is to run for your life.... yeah it fits the Mafias narrative just fine.

Yeah ... I'm quite certain that no one (even Hanzou) ever made that statement. The claim is that in the (highly unlikely) event that you are confronted by a world-class professional fighter who specializes in leg locks, your options to avoid the leg lock boil down to
a) be a world class professional fighter yourself
b) deploy superior weaponry
c) avoid engagement in the first place

I specifically mentioned options b (use your gun or taser) and c (briskly stroll away). Unfortunately option a isn't available for most of us.

This really isn't a BJJ-specific proposition. If you were approached by a TKD Olympic gold medalist who wanted to kick you or a Judo Olympic gold medalist who wanted to throw you, you would have the same options if you wanted to avoid being kicked or thrown.

As far as the whole "BJJ mafia" nonsense you keep repeating, I'll say again what I said in another thread. If you have any evidence that any of the BJJ regulars on this board other than Hanzou are in the habit of denigrating other arts or saying that BJJ is the best art in the world, then show it.

 

[Hanzou]

Just for clarification purposes, this is what I said;

As humorous as that is, if Keenan Cornelius, Ryan Hall, Lucas Leites, Masakazu Imanari, etc. are coming at you like that, you better start running.

You can add Garry Tonon, Eddie Cummings, the Mendes Bros, the Miyao Bros, and quite a few others to that list.

Hope that helps.