Stop Saying “Traditional” Martial Arts

[Haruhiko]

That’s why I said it wasn’t logical.

I don’t think many of us practise a true martial art (and fight system used in actual warfare or lethal combat) let alone an ancient one, but we have an irrational ‘feeling’ that we do and I think that’s absolutely fine and acceptable.

I study and practise two koryū, would those count?

 

[Haruhiko]

This came to be known as karate-do (as opposed to karate-jutsu). Rather than combat application oriented, karate-do concentrated on the general benefits the practice provided: Exercise, self-discipline and eventually sport (and even entertainment). This is largely the state of current karate, but schools that still emphasize the combat application jutsu still exist to a greater or lesser degree.

Are there any extant Okinawan systems that consider themselves "jutsu" oriented?

Do vs Jutsu. Again.

Blog about Japanese martial arts, gendai and koryu budo, koryu bugei

budobum.blogspot.com

Always a good read when jutsu/do discussion comes up.

 

[Haruhiko]

This is a good starting point for Greco-Roman Wrestling and why it has become what it has become today.

Fascinating video. Interesting that the French formalised it during the Napoleonic years.

I'm referring then to ancient Greek wrestling (pālé). Evenso, do many Franco-greco-roman wrestling traditions survive today?

 

[Gyakuto]

I study and practise two koryū, would those count?

In terms of what?

 

[Haruhiko]

In terms of what?

In terms of practising a martial art that is arguably the product of many duels to the death as well as strategic experience on the battlefield.

 

[Gyakuto]

In terms of practising a martial art that is arguably the product of many duels to the death as well as strategic experience on the battlefield.

You’d have to look at the history of your Koryu practises and think about your personal standards of what a koryu is; not all Koryu are ‘made’ equal and some simply adopt that term to appear ‘authentic’.

Muso Shinden Ryu Iai is classed as a Koryu art, but in was only systematised in the 1920s. It was very closely based on a much older school but as an entity in and of itself, it’s only about 100 years old. I personally consider it a Koryu because of that basis, but as others pull it further and further away from that origin, there will come a point when one might have to stand back and say, “OK, now this is something newer.” but that’s a bit subjective.

 

[_Simon_]

Are there any extant Okinawan systems that consider themselves "jutsu" oriented?

Do vs Jutsu. Again.

Blog about Japanese martial arts, gendai and koryu budo, koryu bugei

budobum.blogspot.com

Always a good read when jutsu/do discussion comes up.

Fantastic little article, 100% agree with it!

 

[Gyakuto]

I try to use ‘Iai’ rather than Iaido/jutsu.

Many like to say they’re “doin’ jutsu, cos they’re only learnin’ to kill and stuff” because they feel the appellation makes them appear tougher than ‘do’ and it’s apparent emphasis on ‘spiritual advancement’. Utter Draegerism-derived nonsense!

 

[Haruhiko]

I try to use ‘Iai’ rather than Iaido/jutsu.

Many like to say they’re “doin’ jutsu, cos they’re only learnin’ to kill and stuff” because they feel the appellation makes them appear tougher than ‘do’ and it’s apparent emphasis on ‘spiritual advancement’. Utter Draegerism-derived nonsense!

My sensei says iai as well.

I study and train in MSR and HNIR. The latter of which certainly satisfies your criteria. MSR was revised by Nakayama Hakudo in the early 20th century. Not standardised, but revised; Musō Shinden-Ryū was the initial name of Hayashizake Jinsuke's school. Some believe it to be the more "true" branch of its sister school MJER, which has a bunch of claimant sokē-ships.

Don't throw the Draeger out with the bath water though! Him and his contemporaries essentially introduced koryū kobudo to the western world.

 

[Gyakuto]

My sensei says iai as well.

Interestingly, Westerners tend to pronounce it ‘ee-eye’ whereas Japanese people say ‘ee-eye-ee’!

Don't throw the Draeger out with the bath water though! Him and his contemporaries essentially introduced koryū kobudo to the western world.

Of course, but he also introduced misconceptions too which have been unhelpful and held back our understanding somewhat.

 

[Fungus]

Greco-Roman Wrestling, despite its age, probably isn't considered traditional by most people. It's old, but its traditions are lost to time.

I did this a bit as a small kid. While I remember some throws, I also remember that even as a kid I found the ruleset pathological as many effective leg techniques was not allowed, and I never understood why. As it is not dangerous. It just went against naturallness to ban an obviously effective combat technique. In this sense, it's construction seems to not have logical combat philosophy.

In other arts, techniques are banned for saftey, that is perfectly fine. But why on earth ban leg techniques? Anyone know btw?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But why on earth ban leg techniques? Anyone know btw?

What's your definition of "leg technique"?

I know "inner leg break",

and "leg twist" are banned in Judo.

 

[Fungus]

What's your definition of "leg technique"?

"While the scoring and rules of a match in Greco Roman and freestyle wrestling are more or less similar, there are some key technical differences between both.

The biggest is that in Greco Roman wrestling, holds below the waist are prohibited and neither is a Greco Roman wrestler allowed to use his legs actively to perform any offensive or defensive actions.

Hence, wrestlers have to rely a lot on their upper bodies to gain the advantage as compared to freestyle wrestling."
-- https://olympics.com/en/news/what-how-greco-roman-wrestling-style-rules-scoring-techniques-olympics

Most techniques are about getting your opponent off ground, and litteraly throwing them one way or the other, pivoting them on your own back or hip or maybe chest, either lifting or pulling their upper body or arms. So mostly throws, as well as of course grappling on the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

neither is a Greco Roman wrestler allowed to use his legs actively to perform any offensive or defensive actions.

The beauty of the wrestling art is the "leg skill". A striker may know how to use leg to trap his opponent's leg, but he may not know how to use his "leg skill".

Here is an example to use "outer hook" to counter "head lock".

 

[Fungus]

The beauty of the wrestling art is the "leg skill". A striker may know how to use leg to trap his opponent's leg, but he may not know how to use his "leg skill".

Yes I agree, except for Greece Roman Wrestling then, which confirms the "pathology"

What I learned and remember from Greece Roman Wrestling is that a good defence is always to lower your center of gravity, that makes it alot harder for the opponent to lift you.

But once you have the opponent off the ground, you own them, as it's hard to defend without rooting.

My main takeaway from that into Karate is that I think i have a pretty good balance, and keep a little lower posture than average kyokushin, and are harder to sweep.

 

[Haruhiko]

My main takeaway from that into Karate is that I think i have a pretty good balance, and keep a little lower posture than average kyokushin, and are harder to sweep.

I tend to bash MMA and the UFC, but Kyokushin and Wrestling would be my go-to if I was of the inclination to compete. Some Judo too, maybe even Aikido.

The conditioning in wrestling is marathonesque. Curious to see how wrestlers with striking backgrounds measure up against the BJJ crowd.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I tend to bash MMA and the UFC, but Kyokushin and Wrestling would be my go-to if I was of the inclination to compete. Some Judo too, maybe even Aikido.

The conditioning in wrestling is marathonesque. Curious to see how wrestlers with striking backgrounds measure up against the BJJ crowd.

I love judo, but I wouldn't compete in it. Not a fan of some of the rule changes over the last 15 years, and watching it online I feel like the better judoka is more often than not, not the winner.

 

[Haruhiko]

I love judo, but I wouldn't compete in it. Not a fan of some of the rule changes over the last 15 years, and watching it online I feel like the better judoka is more often than not, not the winner.

Judo competition rules or UFC rules?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Judo competition rules or UFC rules?

Judo competition rules

 

[ap Oweyn]

This is an important point and one that mainly held in karate prior to about 1920 at which time a new branch evolved, one intended for the general public. This came to be known as karate-do (as opposed to karate-jutsu). Rather than combat application oriented, karate-do concentrated on the general benefits the practice provided: Exercise, self-discipline and eventually sport (and even entertainment). This is largely the state of current karate, but schools that still emphasize the combat application jutsu still exist to a greater or lesser degree. Karate only became a sport fairly late in its evolution.

Yeah, I remember learning about the "jutsu/do" distinction decades ago, though my background in actual Japanese arts is minimal. I suspect we'd differ somewhat on the distinctions between sport and combat. Though I appreciate your inclusion of the word "entertainment." I have the utmost respect for the arts of boxing, MMA, etc. But the entertainment industry of each doesn't hold much interest for me.

This is true, even more so since the time I first started sparring. Here we are talking sport, and sport has rules. One must conform to the rules of the sport. This means one's techniques and, as a result, strategy must be adapted to be successful within the rule set. This is why it is near impossible to tell one style from another in kumite/sparring competition as all must fight "the same way" to fit the rule set. There were less rules in the 1960's and start of the 1970's so it was a bit easier to notice the difference in styles. In a real sense, competition karate is its own style.

Everything has rules. Unless someone is in the regular habit of actually gouging eyes and (re)stomping groins, their training has rules. Where those rules compromise is the question. My appreciation for combat sport (though I don't compete myself) is that it makes its compromises elsewhere than does a traditional approach. The key, to my mind, is to try different approaches so that you distribute your compromises. A boxing glove isn't an eye gouge, certainly. But getting a boxing glove to a resisting opponent's face is a helpful indicator of whether you could get your fingers to an opponent's eyes in the first place.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the point about competition. There's nothing in most of those sports formats that preclude classical technique. Stances, blocks, etc. Those things that are characteristic of specific styles. I think there's more to it than that.

There was a method of boxing continuously passed down from ancient Greece, thru the Middle Ages to modern times? And even in the past few centuries did a nation's history and unique culture affect their boxing's purpose and nature? That is the kind of tradition I'm referring to. Sure, there is a specific culture in boxing like there can be a corporate culture, but these are self-contained and self-generated. They're not a reflection of the greater cultural history (other than from a sport or profit consideration) of a country. In this respect, boxing and karate are different. This is my only point and why I think boxing (which is a great skill and sport!) is not a TMA as most would see it.

I don't think I entirely agree that boxing doesn't reflect a greater cultural history. It's a different sense of culture and history, I'll grant you. But in some regards, I think it resembles that of the traditional East Asian martial arts. As a tool available to anyone against some form of oppression, I think boxing has a very important cultural history. From the gladiators to the various cultural groups you see prominently in boxing, there's a tradition of social mobility in the face of oppression.

That said, I also said that boxing was not a traditional martial art in the way I was defining them. But I am fully prepared to frame it as an art. We agree that it's a great skill.