Stop Saying “Traditional” Martial Arts

[Seibukan Connection]

Why do we call martial arts like Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Kung Fu “traditional” but not arts like Muay Thai, Jiujitsu, Boxing or Wrestling?

The latter arts actually have much earlier roots than the former ones. TKD for example wasn’t invented until 1950. Muay Thai and BJJ were already formalized by the 1920s, about the same time karate was just being established in Japan. Boxing and wrestling as we know them today were formalized in the 1800s but of course have ancient lineages.

 

[Gyakuto]

Why do we call martial arts like Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Kung Fu “traditional” but not arts like Muay Thai, Jiujitsu, Boxing or Wrestling?

I think it’s to demarcate ‘oldish’ schools of X, Y and Z from the plethora of modern ‘interpretations’. It’s also a stab at lending credibility to them too.

 

[drop bear]

Because of ritual.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The term "traditional" is silly. Anything that you create today, 1000 years later, it will become traditional.

 

[Badhabits]

We all know it's an inaccurate term. For multiple reasons. It's just a convenient umbrella term for eastern martial arts older than maybe 50 years. Nothing deeper to it.

 

[Holmejr]

I blame kwai chang.

 

[isshinryuronin]

We all know it's an inaccurate term. For multiple reasons. It's just a convenient umbrella term for eastern martial arts

I agree with this part. It is a convenient term that, if we agree on it, makes referring to these arts (that do have something in common) easier. As to what they have in common IMO is "tradition," historically linked to the environment in which it evolved and reflective of that culture.

I see karate and boxing as good contrasting historical, cultural, evolutionary examples. Consider these influences and if they significantly contributed to each of these two fighting methods as they exist today:

Exposure to long international influence thru trade and cultural exchange contributing to the art's evolution and development - karate, yes - boxing, no.

Effects of military conquests, the victor imposing its politics and culture that affected the art - karate, yes - boxing no.

Spiritual/philosophical concepts that over time influenced the nature of the art - karate, yes - boxing, no.

Changes in basic societal needs that brought about evolution of the art - karate, yes - boxing, no.

All of the above (and other things) combined to create karate as an art that reflected the culture in which it evolved. In other words, tradition. Boxing in this respect is much different than karate with its long and complex history.

China's empty hand TMA is unique to China, Okinawa's is unique to Okinawa, Japan's is unique to Japan, and the same for Korea. Each country's empty hand combat art reflects its culture and history. Boxing looks pretty much the same in China, Japan, Cuba, USA, France, Mexico and everywhere else. It doesn't reflect a cultural tradition.

This is not to demean boxing at all, it's just a different kind of thing, that for all the reasons above, I'd not put into the same box as TMA.

 

[Steve]

when people refer to their own arts as traditional, I believe it is to give an impression that they are more serious and effective than other arts.

When people refer to other arts as traditional, I believe it’s the opposite.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

when people refer to their own arts as traditional, I believe it is to give an impression that they are more serious and effective than other arts.

When people refer to their own arts as "internal", I believe it is to give an impression that they are more superior than other arts.

When "traditional" and "internal" are used together, it's just like "pure blood" vs. "muggle or (mudblood)".

 

[isshinryuronin]

when people refer to their own arts as traditional, I believe it is to give an impression that they are more serious and effective than other arts.

When people refer to other arts as traditional, I believe it’s the opposite.

I disagree. I don't see boxing as a "traditional" MA, yet I think it's a serious endeavor and an effective fighting method. Japanese Noh theater is very traditional, yet I don't see it as effective entertainment. It is boringly serious, though, IMO.

"Tradition" itself is not good or bad. It depends on what the particular tradition is. Some cultures have a tradition of keeping women illiterate and stoning them if they act outside accepted cultural norm. Other cultures venerate women and place them high in their traditional hierarchy. Things that are not traditional can be good or bad as well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why do we call martial arts like Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Kung Fu “traditional” but not arts like Muay Thai, Jiujitsu, Boxing or Wrestling?

• Traditional Muay Thai is called Muay Boran.
• Traditional Boxing is simply called Boxing.
• Traditional Wrestling is known as Folk Wrestling.

Most fighting systems have a "traditional branch." When someone says, "Traditional Martial Arts," it usually means they train in the old, original way. Here's an example, Jow Ga Kung Fu is a traditional martial art. We train in the old way and often feel that the old way is better than modern translations of the training.

In addition to the training. The environment used traditional methods of respect and hierarchy are often culturally based. The origin of the system will often reflect the culture within the system.

I think traditional and modern is a good way to classify a fighting system. I think BJJ will also be referred to as traditional. My guess is that the Gracies will be the first to start calling it traditional BJJ as a way to distinguish it from other schools who focus more on the sport of BJJ and instead of the self-defense of it.

 

[Steve]

I disagree. I don't see boxing as a "traditional" MA, yet I think it's a serious endeavor and an effective fighting method. Japanese Noh theater is very traditional, yet I don't see it as effective entertainment. It is boringly serious, though, IMO.

"Tradition" itself is not good or bad. It depends on what the particular tradition is. Some cultures have a tradition of keeping women illiterate and stoning them if they act outside accepted cultural norm. Other cultures venerate women and place them high in their traditional hierarchy. Things that are not traditional can be good or bad as well.

Do you think boxing is more effective for self defense than your own traditional art? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you think boxing is more effective for self defense than your own traditional art? If so, why? If not, why not?

When I throw punches, if I

- don't consider block/wrap, I can throw 4 punches in 1 second (such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut).
- consider block/wrap, I may only throw 2 blocks/wraps and 2 punches in 1 second (such as block/wrap, jab, block/wrap, cross).

Which one is better?

- For pure striking art, boxing is better.
- For mix striking/grappling art, traditional MA is better.

You won't see this in boxing.

 

[Buka]

when people refer to their own arts as traditional, I believe it is to give an impression that they are more serious and effective than other arts.

When people refer to other arts as traditional, I believe it’s the opposite.

I never thought of it that way. That gives me a lot to think on.

Either way, it’s all good.

 

[Haruhiko]

Why do we call martial arts like Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Kung Fu “traditional” but not arts like Muay Thai, Jiujitsu, Boxing or Wrestling?

The latter arts actually have much earlier roots than the former ones. TKD for example wasn’t invented until 1950. Muay Thai and BJJ were already formalized by the 1920s, about the same time karate was just being established in Japan. Boxing and wrestling as we know them today were formalized in the 1800s but of course have ancient lineages.

I understand "traditional" to mean that the arts have traditions and rituals pertaining to etiquette, dress code, expectations that are inextricably tied to them as much as their pragmatic aspects like form and techniques.

A TMA has deeply embedded traditions in it. I don't think it's related to how old it is definitionally, but older martial arts certainly have had the time to organically develop those traditions over centuries.

There are other definitions depending on the country of origin that specifically define the age of the martial art as well. For example "koryū" martial arts are Japanese schools that date prior to 1868 (the Meiji restoration).

Greco-Roman Wrestling, despite its age, probably isn't considered traditional by most people. It's old, but its traditions are lost to time.

 

[Haruhiko]

The term "traditional" is silly. Anything that you create today, 1000 years later, it will become traditional.

It will become old and likely irrelevant, not traditional.

Words have meanings, and we find them very useful to distinguish between things unconsciously.

 

[Fungus]

when people refer to their own arts as traditional, I believe it is to give an impression that they are more serious and effective than other arts.

When people refer to other arts as traditional, I believe it’s the opposite.

I get what you say, "tradition" can be both a postive or negative meaning...

(+) once can refer to "tradition" as to back up something in argumentation, such that "this is traditional and has worked and been developed for 100 years" - so we have good grounds to have faith in this..

or

(-) "beeing traditional" can thus also mean "stuck with old" ideas, rooted in the past, developed in other times or during different conditions, but perhaps not "revised" to 2024

But to stay best and develop, once should preserved and keep what is good, learn from the past and "tradition", but also have an open mind and nog get chained to the past, because time changes, context changes, and what is best for one practicitioner may be suboptimal for anothoer one. This is even manifest I think in the old "animal kung fu" styles. What is appopriate for the dragon is not appropriate for a crane.

 

[Gyakuto]

Japanese Noh theater is very traditional, yet I don't see it as effective entertainment. It is boringly serious, though, IMO.

 

[Gyakuto]

I blame kwai chang.

Bast*rd!

 

[Gyakuto]

Traditional Karate…

Modern Karate…

It’s not logical, but it is often true.