Stick techniques

[Bester]

I have seen at least one book (I believe by Dr. Hatsumi) that covered both single and double stick techniques.

Were these common skills of the ninja of old, and are they a regular part of todays ninjutsu training?

How do they compare with the better known Fillipino techniques?

 

[Kurohana]

Don't know much about the FMA styles such as arnis, but my take is that they are different to a degree. All weapons techniques are just an extension of the body. Hanbo was and is still a very important part of our training. As is the bo and jo. My (limited) experience with arnis is that it relied to heavily on treating the stick as a club. While in the Bujinkan it's treated as an extension of the body. Can you do a lock with it? Then do it. Smack someone upside the head? Okay, do that to. Jab them? Yep. Do it.

This is not a slam against the FMA, just from my limited experience. May have just been a bad teacher.

 

[Bester]

I may ask a few FMAers too. The little bit I've seen of the Arnis they seem comparable, but I'm comparing 1 seminar to a book which of course is not a good way to understand.

Who was your teacher if I may ask?

 

[Kreth]

I can't speak to Arnis, but from what I have seen, many stick arts concentrate mainly on striking. Our training tends to use a lot of grappling techniques as well, mainly just extensions of what can be done with empty hands...

Jeff

 

[Flatlander]

I have never trained in Ninjustsu extensively, I'll begin with that caveat. From a relatively non - expert perspective from one who does train Modern Arnis, I'd add to this that yes, we do treat the stick as an extension of the body. You are obviously correct in that it can be used for locking, throwing the opponent, choking, disarming through various means, as well as a multitude of different striking variations. Fundamental to the entire system is the reality that all movements translate from emptyhand to stick, knife, sword, staff, double stick, stick and knife, double knife, screwdriver, shovel, axe, ad infinitum.

 

[r.severe]

The kali systems I have trained in are very complex... and cover any types of striking, grappling, throwing, chocking, takedowns, tackles, muti weponry use, etc...
The kali systems are not any different than what is found in ..say.. kukishinden ryu.. the weapon and body are one..
The back ground, culture, clothing, wood and training seem to make the small difference..
There is not much that is not covered in a legit kali system...
The system I trained in the most has 12 different areas that cover the base of what is known as the juhachimon in Japanese training.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[George Kohler]

I have seen at least one book (I believe by Dr. Hatsumi) that covered both single and double stick techniques.

What book was this? I don't believe I seen Hatsumi sensei showing double stick techniques.

 

[chidarake]

Wether the ninja origionally trained in stick fighting i dont know i can only assume they did because you could go off into the woods and fashion one in
in a short time.lol imagine that a good bo staff could be just a hike in
the woods.

 

[Cruentus]

What book was this? I don't believe I seen Hatsumi sensei showing double stick techniques.

There is "Stick Fighting" by Maasaki Hatsumi and Quintin Chambers:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t..._books_3/102-9237310-7882545?v=glance&s=books

Double sticks? I don't know if that's in there. If memory serves me correct, It's mostly Hanbo techniques.

:asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

Double sticks? I don't know if that's in there. If memory serves me correct, It's mostly Hanbo techniques.

:asian:

koppo sticks too! He has a section on that, although I do not recall many double stick techniques if any... it was mostly, as you said, basic hanbo locks and takedowns.

 

[George Kohler]

There is "Stick Fighting" by Maasaki Hatsumi and Quintin Chambers:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t..._books_3/102-9237310-7882545?v=glance&s=books

Double sticks? I don't know if that's in there. If memory serves me correct, It's mostly Hanbo techniques.

:asian:

Yes, I know about the Stick Fighting book. I was asking which book had the double sticks.

 

[Elizium]

Iam studying the Stick fighting book at the moment (scanned onto my PC for easeier access) and it has no double stick techniques.

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Everyone,

Great points by all, here are a few more to consider:

The FMA’s contain a wealth of knowledge that flows from striking to locking, disarms, controls etc. This can flow to and from bladed weapons (primarily shorter in length than a sword/katana) to empty hand as well as including projectiles, double weapon drills, spear, staff, chain, tabak toyok, etc.

Most Traditional Japanese arts in the curriculum of the Bujinkan concentrate on the Hanbo and Rokushakubo for their core curriculum. Both are excellent weapons, for striking and grappling. The hanbo being one of the best for everyday carry and use. Many of the techniques you see in the Stick Fighting book have their equivalents in FMA’s and probably vice versa. Guro Dan Inosanto once said “There are only so many ways to hurt the human body, and everyone discovered them.” It is very true in comparing the two arts as well!

Balance your practice with some practice in both arts, you can’t go wrong if you can find a good teacher to bring you along the path!

Bufu Ikkan

Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net

ps: Shihan Ralph, I hope all is well with you, it has been too long since we have gotten to train together.

 

[r.severe]

Steve sensei..
I feel many misunderstand the FMA a great deal...
They maninly do not have knowledge of the complex nature of the different systems.. and how close they are to say.. juhachimon..
My AOC classes are the focus of the kail parts of my own personal research... stick, knife, boxing and grappling..
Many people don't even know kail has boxing and grappling systems.. and ground combat..
With the Jaoanese arts I have went outside for more information on weaponry than what is offered in the Bujinkan..
The many Japanese ryu that have weaponry.. I mean effective weaponry is wonderful and refreshing...
With the 6 Hatsumi ryuha and these others I have found a more 'rounded' training outline...
These are posted on my web site under private classes.. Japanese weaponry.. take a look if you have time..
Many of these will also be part of my new DVD series coming up..
I have shot some very entertaining footage so far.. very entertaining... to put into the instructional parts to keep it fun.. very much like the 'Quest' series..
The two books I did are still on the back burner too.. they are the most artful and complete martial training outline on hanbo and rokushakubo I have ever seen in print...
I should get that going again.. But I'm playing to much football these days.. and I'm a lazy person.. to much zazen..LOL.. but the football has increased my speed... if that was really needed..LOL..
It's funny to see a 315 ib human being moving the way I do.. even at 43..
Yes Steve sensei.. it has been many moons... I last saw you in New York..
Rich Henderson is still training and has a great following.. there..
Have you been over to the kutaki no mura shidoshikai forum yet?
Some really funny stuff going on over there..
We should see each other soon..
With the stick fighting..
What do you feel personally was the best points in the Hastumi sensei book for you and how did it change if any your training years ago..?
And how does the FMA help in your kukishihden ryu bojutsu?????

Ok..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Shihan Ralph,

I absolutely agree with you, that many people have a misunderstanding about what the FMA’s have to offer. But, like many other systems you, a prospective student, really has to search out and find a good teacher and school in order to learn many of the aspects.

When I first picked up Soke Hatsumi’s book, it definitely changed my view on the complexities of the hanbo. Way back at the 1989 Tai Kai, we were all working on the hanbo in the gym, when Abbie Allen introduced me to the aspects of grappling with the hanbo. She then went on to introduce me to you, and you took over throwing Chris, several other guys and myself around for the next 30 mins!! I was hooked!! When I started to examine the hanbo techniques, I started to see more applications in the FMA work I was doing. Now, many FMA’s are releasing that type of information (Trankada, Palis Palis videos and books are out) so it is becoming much more common knowledge. As for the bojutsu, most FMA’s lack the sliding grip and flipping, spinning motions of the staff that the Kukishinden ryu contain. When I have sparred with fellow FMA players, they have adopted the long pole form (similar to Wing Chun, remember those days at the ND boxing gym and sparring with the staffs!! I was bruised for weeks) and they had a hard time countering the motions taught in the Kukishinden ryu bojutsu. I saw a recent video of Guro Abon Pat Baet, and he did demonstrate some of the motions we commonly train in as well as some locking and throwing techniques as well.

I haven't been over to the Kutaki site for some time, as I have let lapse my Shidoshikai card...(beat me now...I have been busy!!)

All the best
Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

Ps: Let Rich know I said hello and wish him all the best!

 

[r.severe]

HA HA .. Steve sensei you are a bad man..
Jissen keiko...
Jittaiken.... not hear-say or reading books.. teaching so called combat skills with no experience in them..

In 1993 Dan Inosanto was teaching the ground combative skills of the baton, sarong and unarmed of panatukan..
I was shocked at the mindfulness of the system.

The kukishinden, kukishin ryu have a very good base for in close grappling concepts.... and take it to a level of understanding the short and long staff... but there are other Japanese arts that have a great deal as well as more useful grappling skills as well. This is indeed seen in the kali systems.. hidden there for the student to find.

The methods I have found are complex in nature with the kali grappling standing and ground... unlike the Japanese arts.
I would say it is because of the back ground of the arts and their use in combat.

At the Texas yearly seminar we have in Houston, promoted by Mark Harper, we have a group of Bujinkan shidoshikai members teaching at a two day blow out....
The one where Bud shihan came to.. was a very good one where I showed the ground combative skills of the hanbo and baton...
He was totally blow away at the complex nature in which I threw out the skills and information..
At that time he was dumbfounded at the nature of what I was showing and seem to have no experience with the weaponry on the ground like that and told me he has never seen anything like it in the Bujinkan teachings... ha ha.. I asked he with concern if it was "ok" that I did this methodology even if it was not Bujinkan... he laugh.
The second day they voted me to teach again over all the other shidoshi there.. because I'm such a poor excuse for a shidoshi.. ha ha .
But without the research into the arts outside the Bujinkan or Hatsumi ryuha.. I wouldn't have found my path..
This is called 'gaiden' in Japanese...

Not only does the information 'set you free' it develops the nature of the skills you already have..

This is also notice in tsuba kirai.. kenpo keiko.

With all of this.. have you found any other Japanese arts that have hanbojutsu or good information on the type of grappling you have found in the kukishin, kukishinden ryu..?

What was it that took you too the Bujinkan arts and then out of them to find what it is you were looking for over the years?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Shihan Ralph,

Sorry for the delayed response as I just got back from Sama Sama, so I have a lot of catching up to do!

Very stimulating questions you present, I hope I can offer some of my insight to them.

Sadly, I have only seen a few schools that offer the “hanbo” as a piece of their curriculum. What I have found interesting was that two of them had ties to the Yoshin ryu style of jujutsu, very similar in aspects to the Takagi Yoshin ryu style that is taught within the Bujinkan curriculum. So far I have not seen other arts that contain such a rich curriculum as the Kukishinden ryu habojutsu/bojutsu. Many arts are now offering more and more to their “lacking” curriculums and adding techniques such as the cane and walking stick to help supplement their student’s training. Often, when I have asked where they have gotten some of their material, they refer to Hatsumi sensei’s book on stick fighting!! At this year’s Sayoc Kali Sama Sama, a senior Instructor was teaching stick grappling and the many of the techniques taught were similar in application to the hanbo techniques in the Bujinkan!! (Two separate arts developing similar paths to protecting oneself!)

I joined the Bujinkan in order to progress my fighting skills, as well as to learn all that cool “ninja stuff”! In 1989 at the New Jersey Tai Kai, I was very impressed by Soke Hatsumi’s ability to move and flow very effortlessly to toss around his partners, so I became fully hooked. What I did find interesting back then was the lack of any sparring methods incorporated into the curriculum, as well as the diversity of knowledge that students of the same grade level may have had. That was why I decided to start to train under you, from that demonstration in 89, where you and Baker were throwing full contact punches and kicks at each other!!! I can remember the long nights at the 90, 91, 92, 93, 94 Tai Kai’s, were you held training in the hotel lobbies or in the hotel room, to help students learn more than just what was presented at the Tai Kai event. Sparring was the key, application of a technique only came through being able to apply the action through a resistant opponent. In 96, I passed the Godan testing and was passed to rokudan later that year, but by 97 and 98(even up to today) the politics of the Bujinkan as well as the rapid rise of many Instructor to Senior levels was/is very disappointing. It seemed the skill level was being watered down and many practitioners wanted to be like Soke “now” instead of having to go through the years of hard and difficult training it took to become that way.

As I have a passion for all martial arts especially those of combative origin, while I was training in the Bujinkan I also studied many FMA’s (and other arts) as well, and continue to work developing real world weapons, and unarmed skills. Primarily I have been working on Sayoc Kali, Floro Fighting system ( Kalis Ilustrisimo based) for real world blade and stick skills (and a whole lot more). I also continue to study the curriculum of the Bujinkan and ninjutsu for the rich diversity it contains.

Everyone’s path in the martial arts is different. Anyone telling you not to train with this Instructor or that Instructor should be scrutinized as to why they would say such things. Is it to hold a student back from developing to a new level or learning new skills? Is it their own Ego getting in the way that a student may be better suited to another instructor’s style of teaching? Every art has it’s positive and negative aspects, and all students should research what they are particularly interested in, and as Bruce Lee was fond to say “Absorb what is useful, Reject what is useless, add what is specifically what is your own.”

Bufu Ikkan

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[r.severe]

Well good-ness Steve sensei..
What a post.

Yes, I can understand from your post you are seeking paths unknown by most in the martial arts and even into life.
It is funny because many put aside the 'life' part in their training for ego and fear.
Maybe this was the reason you were the first student in my methodology I ranked as yondan..HA HA ..your insight and willing-ness to 'walk on'... beautiful.

With the hanbojutsu...
How does the FMA help with your curriculum, in the Bujinkan?
This might be of some interest to the many ninja here on the forum to brak down some of your insights..
Starting from the base.. how it it developed from stage to stage..?

I understand the Takagi yoshin ryu has hanbo of the kukishin ryu as well as other weponry. As does the kukishin has the jutaijutsu taijutsu gata of takagi yoshin ryu. Funny stuff.. how they mix..

You know I have many years with the FMA as well.. this is no secret.. but the systems you train seem wonderful if they get a grove in your interest level.

Yes, I have the same sadness about the ranking as you do in regards to the Bujinkan. The menkyo is not worth the paper it was written on as far as skill, knowledge and experience is questioned.

Oh well..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Again Everyone,

I fully agree that too many people let the EGO get in the way of their progression in life.(Oh I must have that next rank paper etc!!) When anyone truly starts to believe in their own martial arts “mystique”, then they have fallen into the trap of the ego. It is not limited to just the martial arts, but all aspects in life.

I can remember the Yondan test very well, starting with the 12-15 student’s I had to grapple and spar with, then the seiza muto dori, and I won’t even get into the sleep deprivation from the seminar etc!! When I was heading back home, and stopped driving after a few hours in Albany, I went to get out of the truck, was limping and was having a hard time moving well, people held the door open for me at the rest stop as if I was handicapped!!! (too funny the looks I received that day)

When I first started in the FMA way back in the early 80’s, I was fascinated by the way a good practitioner flowed through the sumbrada patterns as well as sinawalli etc. After practicing with those techniques for many a month, I realized that when your opponent was bearing down on you, most of the drills fell out the window, and it became a battle of the caveman! It wasn’t for sometime that I realized it was because I was “Playing the Game” of sparring, that I was trapped in the “Classical Mess” of the FMA. Once I realized this it changed my whole perspective on training. Avoiding the attack, countering and feinting, simplifying the footwork, non telegraphic motions etc etc. All things that should be common in various martial arts, not just the FMA’s. A few years ago I met Guro Carl Atienza, after sitting and talking and working with him, I found some great comparisons to what I had been training in yet I lacked a multiple man attacking strategy, which they work on all the time, so I watched and learned. Two years ago I started with Ray Floro, and right from the get go it was great. He arrives from Australia, we go out to eat (very important!!) head up to the school, and begin to share training methods with each other, then it was sparring time! (Did I learn the effectiveness of the thrust to the head!!!) Sayoc Kali has a different approach then many other FMA’s and it deals exclusively with the blade in it’s many shapes and sizes. From projectiles to close quarters grappling, Sayoc Kali is a great art to train in, as well.

So how does this influence my Budo training and hanbojutsu practice? (I’ll start with the hanbo as an example)

1) The hanbo is a multi faceted weapon that can start from the thrusting range to kyusho (I like the classical fencing techniques here), all the way to grappling in at close quarters (which quickly relates to firearm retention skills).

2) How do you start? Prepare a training hanbo for sparring!! Take a PVC pipe, layer it in pipe foam insulation and duct tape the heck out of it and viola! A training hanbo! Be careful as this can still break bones or damage your partner pretty seriously.

3) Start with the fundamental Kukishinden ryu curriculum and learn them well. Then add realistic force and attacks from your partner. Finally have him free flow attack you to ensure that you can achieve your techniques. (Shu, Ha, Ri) The go back and add the following, the thrust from the long range, and allow him to grab your weapon. Go back and start to add other types of sparring:

Some examples:
You armed vs unarmed opponent (strikes only)
You armed vs unarmed opponent (strikes, locks etc allowed)
You armed vs armed opponent (strikes only)
You armed vs armed opponent (all techniques allowed)
You armed vs multiple unarmed opponents
You armed vs multiple armed opponents
Add low light conditions
Add outdoors conditions
Add environmental stress conditions (bright lights, verbal abuse, loud sounds, etc)
Add ground grappling with opponent in mount, guard etc........

This list can go on and on, but the main premise is to be able to fully integrate the techniques through stressful conditions utilizing sparring and scenario based training drills. This is achieved in a step by step progression to continuously challenge a student’s abilities.

Bufu Ikkan
Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[Don Roley]

In 96, I passed the Godan testing and was passed to rokudan later that year, but by 97 and 98(even up to today) the politics of the Bujinkan as well as the rapid rise of many Instructor to Senior levels was/is very disappointing. It seemed the skill level was being watered down and many practitioners wanted to be like Soke “now” instead of having to go through the years of hard and difficult training it took to become that way.

So why do you still use the Bujinkan name to attract students when you have let your Bujinkan shidoshikai lapse? Put aside your grouching about how things are not as you think they should be, if you are not willing to be a member of the Bujinkan's teaching orginization, it is immoral to use the name to present yourself as if you are a current member.

Some people like jay Bell have left the Bujinkan because they think they have found a better road for them. There is nothing wrong with that. Each of us have to make our own choices. Each of us will find different ways to go. But to use the Bujinkan name while not being a member is deceitfull. It is like Brian McCarthy or Wayne Roy. Make your break and complain all you want. But drop the Bujinkan name unless you are willing to be a member with all the responsibilities that comes with it.