Stand-up grappling in MMA

[Makalakumu]

While I can see and have seen many instances of good MMA fighters using throws, what do you think about the usefulness of other stand-up grappling techniques. Particularly, I am interested in opinions on Yawara and Goshin lists. Does this stuff have a place in MMA?

 

[Drag'n]

I'm not familar with yawara...I presume its similar to the grabbing locking techniques of chin na?
I think these kind of techs deffinately have their place in certain self defence situations.But when you're squared off with another trained fighter its very difficult to aply alot of those moves.Often dojos will practise these moves in a very controlled and tellegraphed fashon without taking the step to practise them in a free contact senario.It takes alot of practise! Its not as easy as alot of MAtists think.Thats what I've found anyway.
Try it yourself.Put on some protective gear and do some hard contact sparring with someone who has some grappling and stand up experience.
Its a real eye opener!

 

[takadadojokeith]

If you want to see standing submissions, check out some Shootboxing events. The bill themselves as "standing vale tudo", meaning you can do throws...
http://sportsnavi.yahoo.co.jp/fight/photo/200503/im00008064.html

...and locks...
http://sportsnavi.yahoo.co.jp/fight/photo/200503/im00007984.html

...while kickboxing...
http://sportsnavi.yahoo.co.jp/fight/photo/200503/im00007988.html

 

[FearlessFreep]

Does this stuff have a place in MMA?

Do you mean "MMA" as mixed martial arts as in the practice of studying various arts to have a good variety of techniques for any situation or UFC style competitions?

 

[Makalakumu]

I was thinking more about the competition aspects of MMA in regards to this question. I don't think I've ever seen a stand-up submission in competition.

 

[Marginal]

I've seen them attempted in the lower rent promotions, don't recall seeing a successful application tho.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Standing guillotines, etc. are useful. I don't have much faith in wrist locks (while standing) and stuff like that because it's hard enough to get a grip on someone's hand while fighting (in a mma context), let alone keep that grip and apply a lock while the rest of their body is free to move and resist. If I get a grip on someone's wrist, I would rather use an arm drag or 2-on-1 and then work from the superior position than just stand in front of someone. A lot of wrist locks require you to focus both of your hands on one or theirs while they are still free to move, hit you, etc.

 

[Jumper53]

Most standing grappling techniques do not result in a standing submission. Your goal when grappling from a standing or clinched position is to get your opponent to the ground and end up in a superior position by dropping knees on him or attaining mount/side controll. If there is a style of takedown that applies to the standing grappling style I would say it is any technique where you drop knees on the opponent instead of following them to the ground and wrestling.

I have seen in many UFC/Pride/VT fights where standing grappling was used to move the opponent or take them down but then other techniques were used to finish/submit them.

It is very difficult to use a wrist/finger technique against a trained striker because they do not sacrifice all their balance when they strike, thus they can pull away from the lock. But wrist locks are easy to get when clinching bacause the opponents hands on you make them easy to aquire and secure. Just like the basic Hapkido techniques where the opponent grabs you first, then you lock them up so they cannot let go.

I think the main reason you do not see a lot of wrist and finger locks in MMA is because in UFC and many other events they are not allowed.

With the skill level of the current pro fighters you either succeed in shooting for a takedown, or you fail completely and disengage or be sprawled on. There is a lot less clinching up than there was a few years ago. But less experienced fighters still end up in standing clinches all the time.
:asian:

 

[NotQuiteDead]

I have seen in many UFC/Pride/VT fights where standing grappling was used to move the opponent or take them down but then other techniques were used to finish/submit them.

Takedowns/throws/etc. are standing grappling.

But wrist locks are easy to get when clinching bacause the opponents hands on you make them easy to aquire and secure. Just like the basic Hapkido techniques where the opponent grabs you first, then you lock them up so they cannot let go.

If you try that against someone with any experience in hand fighting (where both people try to control the opponent's wrists/arms while keeping theirs free, it's a wrestling term) then wrist locking them isn't going to be easy.

I think the main reason you do not see a lot of wrist and finger locks in MMA is because in UFC and many other events they are not allowed.

Small joint manipulations are illegal, but that doesn't include wrists.

With the skill level of the current pro fighters you either succeed in shooting for a takedown, or you fail completely and disengage or be sprawled on. There is a lot less clinching up than there was a few years ago. But less experienced fighters still end up in standing clinches all the time.

Ending up in a clinch has nothing to do with fighters being inexperienced.

 

[Jumper53]

Small joint manipulations are illegal, but that doesn't include wrists.

Ending up in a clinch has nothing to do with fighters being inexperienced.

The UFC rules stated that the wrist was included as a small joint. I thought it was misguided, but those were the rules. Please keep in mind I read the rules document way back around UFC 9 or 10 so things may have changed. The rules posted on the net just state "no small joint" but we need to find someone who has a current copy of the Fighter Application Form or a paper copy of the rules to find out what defines a "small joint".

I was just noting that I seem to see a lot less clinching up in the past couple of years in the big ticket fights. But it still happens for all skill levels.

Completing a wrist lock on a skilled opponent is tough. I use them more to create a reaction from the opponent not submission.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Maybe wrist locks are illegal in UFC, I'm not sure. I know at least one mma match on a K-1 show ended with a wrist lock, even though k-1's rules forbid grabbing the opponent's gloves.

 

[Shaman]

Wrestled freestyle from age 4 to age 17 competively (then informally in college). Best of luck submitting someone with experience in a standing situation. My Sensei (I got to Orange Belt before taking time off when my daughter was born) could not standing submit me with locks; wrist, arm, elbow, as long as we did it in real time and I was allowed to react.

I have put locks in real time on people 'from' a standing position, but they were put to the floor in the process. The pain caused them to tap out immediately, but they were not 'immobilized'.

 

[Jagermeister]

It might not be exactly what you're envisioning, but you should check out the "flying submission vid" thread in the Grappling section here. These are all executed while both fighters are standing.