Stances and their real world uses

[Kung Fu Wang]

What happens when you throw the right cross, and lift the right heel while pivoting on the ball of the foot?

This remind me a comment that someone made to a person's form performance. The comment was, "You did so well in your form that you have 6 front stances and they all look identical."

Is that a good comment, or a bad comment?

Your stance should be able to adjusted according to your application.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agreed, if too much time is spent in their static use. If they are trained as transitions, and the focus is on how they affect structure and movement, they are reasonable.

I think 1 minute is enough for static stance at maximum. Even if it's for conditioning, I don't think the 5 minute horse stances are going to generate any additional returns. It may actually reduce the benefit because the legs become strong at one position.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't think the 5 minute horse stances are going to generate any additional returns.

The following is real.

- My teacher's teacher could stay in horse stance and finished his dinner.
- My teacher could stay in horse stance while watching Beijing opera.
- I can stay in horse stance and finish my beer.

The following is just a joke.

- My teacher's teacher could spit out a sword from his mouth and kill his enemy 100 miles away.
- My teacher could spit out a sword from his mouth and kill his enemy 100 feet away.
- I can spit out a nuts from my mouth and hit a tree 3 feet away.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

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In your horse stance, if you turn your right foot to your right and shift 10% more weight to your left leg, your horse stance will be changed into a 4-6 stance (40-60 weight distributation) which will have better mobility.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The bubbishi is Chinese and is not a manual that describes Okinawan training methods for Te.

Mabuni, Funakoshi, Itosu, Miyagi and several other early karate masters all had their Bubishi copies, personally transcribed by hand. These copies were much treasured by them and were shared with their top students. It is beyond reason to think they did not delve into the illustrated techniques, many likely already taught to them by their own teachers.

Your assertion has no basis, and indeed, the facts suggest the opposite. The book focuses on White Crane style kung fu which heavily influenced Ryuru Ko's art, which in turn influenced Naha Te karate, including Goju ryu. It is said that Miyagi got the name for his style from this book. Likewise, Shimabuku based his "Code of Karate" on one of Bubishi's articles. All this shows that the Bubishi had a strong influence on Okinawan karate tradition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm only talking about fighting stance that you are ready to move in with lighting speed.

View attachment 29391

That would be the context. Sometimes we sacrifice some mobility for stability, for instance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think 1 minute is enough for static stance at maximum. Even if it's for conditioning, I don't think the 5 minute horse stances are going to generate any additional returns. It may actually reduce the benefit because the legs become strong at one position.

Agreed, where we are talking about direct application to combat. Of course, if we're talking about other concepts, there may be reasons to use longer stance practice (not my preference, but I've heard reasonable arguments).

 

[GojuTommy]

Mabuni, Funakoshi, Itosu, Miyagi and several other early karate masters all had their Bubishi copies, personally transcribed by hand. These copies were much treasured by them and were shared with their top students. It is beyond reason to think they did not delve into the illustrated techniques, many likely already taught to them by their own teachers.

Your assertion has no basis, and indeed, the facts suggest the opposite. The book focuses on White Crane style kung fu which heavily influenced Ryuru Ko's art, which in turn influenced Naha Te karate, including Goju ryu. It is said that Miyagi got the name for his style from this book. Likewise, Shimabuku based his "Code of Karate" on one of Bubishi's articles. All this shows that the Bubishi had a strong influence on Okinawan karate tradition.

Techniques used and taught is very different from training methods.

You can come up with nearly infinite methods of training the techniques in the bubishi. I don’t understand why this concept is so difficult to understand.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Whenever people spar, their back leg leg lifts off the ground when they punch, since you don't get the same reach and weight transfer without it. Even in point karate. So I would say stances are very removed from actual applications. I don't believe they were meant for fighting either.

What punch are you referring to? There are specific punches where you raise your (back or front) heel, and other ones where you don't. There are also stances where you raise one of your heels.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The classic karate reverse punch. It makes no sense to keep the rear leg planted since you rob yourself of both reach and power. But the mechanics of it is fine overall.

Do they teach this to keep your rear leg planted in a reverse punch? My school was a bit of a special case, but I'm positive we were taught from the beginning not to do that. Do you have a video showing someone teaching to keep that leg planted?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They don't teach to lift it uo like a boxer. But when they free spar they all lift it up and keep it up.

Am I missing something here? There are plenty of stepping-punches in Heian Shodan, but there are no reverse punches. And definitely none where you do not move your back leg. I watched the video and do not see any there either.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

What's wrong with the real world use for stances being a training tool? That is their best real world use. Used as a training tool, they have a lot to teach.

At the beginning, many people have to learn how to walk... literally. Ever watch people rock side to side with their entire body, in order to take a step? Or people that lean forward, and use their legs and feet to keep them up as they fall forward? Many people come up with ways to walk, that do not articulate the hips, knees, and ankles in an efficient manor. Stance work forces you to walk in a different way, if you have one of these less efficient types of walks. This alone can make you better at fighting....

Stances teach rooting, balance, structure, power generation, movement, turning.... at the basic level. Then they teach how to move while keeping that balance. How to lunge, without over extending. Once we have learned how to generate the power, it teaches us how to put that power into our hands and feet, in different directions. It teaches us how to move your body... In order for this punch to produce power in that direction, I have to adjust my body....

I don't believe that most stances are meant to actually fight from. I think that they are exaggerations, that were designed to allow us to focus on small details found with in a normal fighting stance. By getting low, and wide and big... you have to get the details right in order to make the move you want to make. Take the walking example from before. At a normal stance, it is easy to rock to the side, so that your other foot comes off the ground, so you can fling it forward. You can just move your head to the side to shift the balance when you step, instead of moving your hips. Now, when you get into a low, wide karate stance... you can not lean to the side enough to pick your foot up or even to counter balance with your head... you must use your hips. It takes your ability to cheat away (mostly).

The details you focus on with the stances, then show up in your fighting stance. They are hard to see, as they are small. But, they do make a difference that you can feel.

Why do we never see threads about how boxers use their jump roping in the ring? We never break down a boxers stance and footwork while in the ring to show "look, this is the same stance he had when jumping rope... his hands are down by his waist, one on each side, his feet close together, he has just jumped up from both feet.... then he ate the punch that put him through the ropes...." We just accept that jumping rope develops a number of things for the boxer, that he will use in the ring, even though we know he will never assume the jump rope stance in a fight. Same should go for stances. They are tools to teach things. Specifically, they magnify problem areas, allowing you to practice fixing those problems and improving those areas, so that those improvements will show up in your natural fighting stance.

Sing it brother!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The front stance (bow-arrow stance) should be the end of a punch. Before that punch, your back leg should be bending.

You have to compress before you can release. The front stance is the end of the releasing. IMO, the compressing stage is more important for discussion. Usually the compressing stage is either a horse stance, 4-6 stance (40%-60% weight distribution), or a 3-7 stance.

In this clip, the compressing stage is a horse stance.

I’ve said before and I will say it every time you post this garbage video. This is near to the worst “horse stance” example I have ever seen in 27 years of CMA. Just awful, so bad in fact that it I find it nearly offensive. That is not compressing. That’s pushing off. I hope you push this video off and never show it again. The people in this video should be ashamed.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Lol you said that power comes from the front foot pulling you forward. That’s categorically in correct. Power comes from pushing.

Pushing is one way, pulling is the other way. If you don’t know that, then you are the one who is mistaken. Expansion, and contraction. If you only do one you don’t walk any more efficiently than you punch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do they teach this to keep your rear leg planted in a reverse punch? My school was a bit of a special case, but I'm positive we were taught from the beginning not to do that. Do you have a video showing someone teaching to keep that leg planted?

In all of the times I was taught reverse punch, the heel stayed down. I suspect this was to force specific mechanics you could cheat around otherwise. Of course, there are also other ways to ensure those mechanics are used.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Nevermind which arm it is. I am talking about the fact that the back foot is put down when he extends the arm doing the tsuki.

But it is all stepping stances. He's literally moving his back foot so far it is his front foot.

Or if you are referring that to the front, it is a different punch, which is why i was asking. There are good reasons not to lift the back heel when throwing a punch from your lead hand.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Here you go

This looks like the front arm, not a reverse punch. It would (in the school I trained), be set up so that when you throw the reverse punch next, you whip your hips and also lift your heel into it, which is tougher to do if you've already lifted your heel like that. That's why I asked earlier which punch you were referring to.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In all of the times I was taught reverse punch, the heel stayed down. I suspect this was to force specific mechanics you could cheat around otherwise. Of course, there are also other ways to ensure those mechanics are used.

There are a lot of good reasons to do a reverse punch with the heal down. Much of it is related to what you can do after you punch. Punching power is only one aspect of it. It's not the most important use of punching with heel down.

There are also assumptions when it comes to talking about punching power (heel up vs heel down.). Heel down punching power is more like a battering ram, it will make your punches heavier. Heel up punching power is more like how a bat makes its impact. Both have their place and purpose.

I prefer punching with heel down because it gives me options for diverse footwork that's not possible with heel up. It's the most stable of the two, but the heel up is the fastest over longer distances. Heels down is quick over short distances when you want to get out of the way but not out of range.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You punch with heel

- down when your opponent is not moving (static punch).
- up when your opponent is still moving (dynamic punch).

With heel up, you can slide your back foot forward to gain extra distance.



Another example to slide your back foot forward to gain extra distance. The monkey stance has more reach than the bow-arrow stance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

With heel up, you can slide your back foot forward to gain extra distance.

I often slide my rear foot with heel down if needed.

I tend to be more heels down if grappling is going to be involved. I will go heel's up if I think I can afford to be mobile over longer distances.