Stances and their real world uses

[wab25]

Holy **** the method you describe of generating power with zenkustu dachi is absolutely ridiculous.

I guess this guy is full of it too....

Go to 35 seconds in where he talks about transfer of weight to put power into the punches. When you throw the straight right, you transfer your weight to your front foot, when you throw the hook, you transfer your weight to the back foot. This transfer puts your weight and movement of the weight into the power of the punch. Not that the guy in the video knows anything about punching....

Same thing when doing the lunge punch in karate. Your weight is moving behind the punch, driving it forward. Sure, you can only start to drive the punch, when the back leg becomes the front... and you can push with the other... or you can break the stance, and bring your back leg closer in, so you can bend the knee. But, the lunge punch from the front stance is to teach pulling with that front foot to initiate the power, and to put your weight behind the punch.

Later, you start in back stance and throw the reverse punch. It does not work, as you run into your self. However, if you transition from back stance to front stance by moving you front leg out and forward... it creates a rotation of the body, forward momentum of the body and a body drop.... all while getting out of the way of the punch. This way you learn to drive the punch with the body weight behind it, supporting it and adding power.

Sure, boxing is a more efficient way to learn to punch. It teaches the same weight transfer, only much quicker. But remember, Karate is not just a striking art. It is also a grappling art. Those long over exaggerated moves (step forward lunge punch) are many times throws. When punching you shorten up the transfer and do it faster. When doing a throw, you need the power all the way through the technique.

Transferring your body weight is a great way to generate power. Using your legs to pull as well as push develops more power as well.

 

[GojuTommy]

I guess this guy is full of it too....

Go to 35 seconds in where he talks about transfer of weight to put power into the punches. When you throw the straight right, you transfer your weight to your front foot, when you throw the hook, you transfer your weight to the back foot. This transfer puts your weight and movement of the weight into the power of the punch. Not that the guy in the video knows anything about punching....

Same thing when doing the lunge punch in karate. Your weight is moving behind the punch, driving it forward. Sure, you can only start to drive the punch, when the back leg becomes the front... and you can push with the other... or you can break the stance, and bring your back leg closer in, so you can bend the knee. But, the lunge punch from the front stance is to teach pulling with that front foot to initiate the power, and to put your weight behind the punch.

Later, you start in back stance and throw the reverse punch. It does not work, as you run into your self. However, if you transition from back stance to front stance by moving you front leg out and forward... it creates a rotation of the body, forward momentum of the body and a body drop.... all while getting out of the way of the punch. This way you learn to drive the punch with the body weight behind it, supporting it and adding power.

Sure, boxing is a more efficient way to learn to punch. It teaches the same weight transfer, only much quicker. But remember, Karate is not just a striking art. It is also a grappling art. Those long over exaggerated moves (step forward lunge punch) are many times throws. When punching you shorten up the transfer and do it faster. When doing a throw, you need the power all the way through the technique.

Transferring your body weight is a great way to generate power. Using your legs to pull as well as push develops more power as well.

Nothing he said or demonstrated supported anything you said.
Zenkustu dachi is a flat footed stance, he demonstrated lifting the heel and using the ball of the foot for both the rear foot on the cross, and the front foot on the hook.
There are no stances in karate that replicate that in any way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Stances like static holds and walking have too many steps away from application for it to be efficient use of training time.

It's not as far as you think.

 

[wab25]

I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing that out. Do Karate guys use front stance as a fighting stance?

Similar stances are used when fighting... but they are much more natural. The back leg is not straight and they are not flat footed. However, the hip motions learned from the stance work, still apply. The basics of the stance are still there. In stance work you over exaggerate the motions, to learn the details and engrain the details into your body. The idea is for the details to show up in your fighting, not the exaggerations.

I believe after the punch (power generation), the back leg should slide forward (bend). This way if your opponent steps back, you can step forward quickly.

This is the first kata:

The moves start in front stance. This is to learn to pull with the leg in the direction you want to go. You pull with the front leg to lunge forward and with the back leg to go into the turn.

The coiled spring you were talking about in the Chinese arts occurs in the middle of the lunge step. (the turn step as well) When you start the lunge, you pull your weight onto the front leg, bring your back foot to the front foot, before sending it forward. If you keep your head from rising as you do this, it coils the spring, so that when you move forward from the feet together position, you are then uncoiling and driving off the foot.

When doing this kata slowly, you have to pay attention to details about where your weight is, and how you support it... otherwise you lose your balance. Going slowly, you learn to pull your body into the coil, then uncoil your spring, driving into the punch. Then you speed it up to add the power. Ideally, the power begins as soon as your front foot pulls, and your body accelerates all the way through to the punch. Then the trick is stopping without over reaching.

It looks to be the same thing your version was teaching... just more emphasis on the pulling and the weight transfer / balance. I am sure those things are found in your art as well... just maybe in a different way.

 

[GojuTommy]

I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing that out. Do Karate guys use front stance as a fighting stance?

I believe after the punch (power generation), the back leg should slide forward (bend). This way if your opponent steps back, you can step forward quickly.

I have always believed that a striker should have fast footwork. In the following clip, you don't see stances. You only see steps.

As a fighting stance not really, but most karateka do ever fight so there’s that.

Long story short when karate was converted into physical education for kids it lost pretty much all of its combative usage. Which leaves modern karateka to reverse engineer stances and movements from kata.
This means that people who don’t put in the time or effort to regularly fight and spar continuously are just blindly teaching school children’s PE and (often) calling it self defense.

 

[wab25]

Nothing he said or demonstrated supported anything you said.
Zenkustu dachi is a flat footed stance, he demonstrated lifting the heel and using the ball of the foot for both the rear foot on the cross, and the front foot on the hook.
There are no stances in karate that replicate that in any way.

What happens when you throw the right cross, and lift the right heel while pivoting on the ball of the foot? It transfers your weight to the other foot... the front foot. That transfer of weight generates power for the punch. When you throw the left hook, you pivot with the left foot, lifting the left heel which transfers the weight to the right. Again, that transfer of weight generates power in the technique.

When doing karate stance work, you are transferring your weight, generating power as your transfer your weight. Different drills, different applications... same idea.

 

[JowGaWolf]

believe after the punch (power generation), the back leg should slide forward (bend). This way if your opponent steps back, you can step forward quickly.

This would be the application of it if you are following up with another strike that moves forward.

 

[GojuTommy]

What happens when you throw the right cross, and lift the right heel while pivoting on the ball of the foot? It transfers your weight to the other foot... the front foot. That transfer of weight generates power for the punch. When you throw the left hook, you pivot with the left foot, lifting the left heel which transfers the weight to the right. Again, that transfer of weight generates power in the technique.

When doing karate stance work, you are transferring your weight, generating power as your transfer your weight. Different drills, different applications... same idea.

You’re pushing the punch with your whole body.
Your explanation of how to generate power is not the same as what he explained or demonstrated.

You can try to back track and reword what you said now, but we know what you said.

 

[wab25]

Your explanation of how to generate power is not the same as what he explained or demonstrated.

Explain the difference... I said transferring your weight is a method of power generation. You called me a liar and too stupid to understand. Freddy said transferring your weight can generate power and you now say that I said something different... What is the difference?

You can try to back track and reword what you said now, but we know what you said.

What have I back tracked?

 

[isshinryuronin]

it’s nearly impossible to know how they trained before school integration.

Not true. There are texts such as "Bubishi" and by Motobu and others which clearly show close in fighting, grabbing and takedowns.

 

[GojuTommy]

Explain the difference... I said transferring your weight is a method of power generation. You called me a liar and too stupid to understand. Freddy said transferring your weight can generate power and you now say that I said something different... What is the difference?


What have I back tracked?

Lol you said that power comes from the front foot pulling you forward. That’s categorically in correct. Power comes from pushing.

 

[GojuTommy]

Not true. There are texts such as "Bubishi" and by Motobu and others which clearly show close in fighting, grabbing and takedowns.

The bubbishi is Chinese and is not a manual that describes Okinawan training methods for Te.
Mutobu provides a small very limited window into some training practices. How was Miyagi trained? How was funakoshi trained? The documentation about how people trained before the 20th century is very incomplete and full of holes, and there’s not enough for someone to build an entire program around.

I also never said anything about striking or grappling. There are so many ways to train grappling that mentions or pictures of it doesn’t tell you much about how people trained at the time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't believe that most stances are meant to actually fight from. I think that they are exaggerations, that were designed to allow us to focus on small details found with in a normal fighting stance.

This is my view of a lot of traditional exercises. Used this way, many of them are more effective and make more sense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The issue is that you are using stances differently to the way you are applying them. Stances like skipping rope or ladder work are exercises that resemble the skills you need to employ to make stances work in a fight.

Stances like static holds and walking have too many steps away from application for it to be efficient use of training time.

Agreed, if too much time is spent in their static use. If they are trained as transitions, and the focus is on how they affect structure and movement, they are reasonable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The best fighting stance is a stance that you can spring from it. That's more weight on the back bending leg, and you can raise your leading foot whenever you want to.

There is no single best stance. Context matters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lol you said that power comes from the front foot pulling you forward. That’s categorically in correct. Power comes from pushing.

That’s what you read, because you didn’t finish reading the post (per your own post).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This would be the application of it if you are following up with another strike that moves forward.

It depends on whether you always

1. lock your front stance, or
2. unlock your front stance.

IMO, 1 < 2.

Unlock means that your back leg is only straight for may be 1/10 second.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So here's my understanding of stances. Two examples of a horse stance. The one on the left is a horse stance from my form. The one the right is the application of a horse stance. If take stance from the form and turn my waist to the left or right then I will appear like the my photo on the right. The horse stance on the left is my lowest horse stance that is practical for striking. Anything below that stance moves into the category of grappling on stance.

Both versions of this horse stance are functional and quick. I can quickly move inches or feet. The distance between each foot represents the maximum distance that I can travel from one quick push.

The stance on the left is about 2 or 3 inches higher than my grappling stance. My grappling stance is strong but it's no where as mobile as the two stances are as above. I train my forms in 2 different ways. For grappling and for striking. If I want to focus on the grappling aspects then I'll lower my stance to that level and move slowly. This is how I improved the endurance for my stances for wrestling with my sparring partner. Now my legs don't get tired. The other way that I train is for striking. When I do my form for striking, then the most important part for my stance is to be quick but not high. If my stance is too high then I give my opponent a comfortable height at which to shoot in on me. For grappling, I want to make that position as small as possible without it causing problems for me. It also takes longer for me to drop my stance height when my stance is too high.. The movement for both of these stances is a shuffling movement which is faster.

The downside is that the stance on the left will burn the legs. I uses energy up so your legs have to be stronger than normally. The other good thing is that I can still throw all of my strikes from this stance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In stance work you over exaggerate the motions, to learn the details and engrain the details into your body. The idea is for the details to show up in your fighting, not the exaggerations.

Agree! the exaggerstion is for training. If you fight like in the following clip, your punch combo will be too slow.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is no single best stance. Context matters.

I'm only talking about fighting stance that you are ready to move in with lighting speed.