Stance Training

[Kryshah]

That's interesting because I find it amusing that you're commenting like you're the expert. I call that "Holiday Express Syndrome." You may study zoology, but martial arts does not seem to be your forté.

I don't recall claiming to be an expert in martial arts... just a fan.

I said humans do not have natural weapons compared to other animals. Everything is relative. Large and small primates have natural weapons because they ARE primates, and you seem to negate that although there are physiological similarities, the muscle and bone structure is significantly stronger in these primates compared to a human. A medium size chimp is capable of ripping the arms off a human with their bare hands. That and bone density alone might suggest the argument that although they are similar, this disparity in strength of structure IS what makes them a weapon when they choose to use it. This is strength and structure comparatively, that humans do not have, and even with training may only develop to a fraction of what they possess "naturally" as part of their survival skill mechanisms. The fact that someone can hit someone, or bite does not make a reasonable comparable comparison in weapons between the two. Theirs ARE natural weapons, while humans MAY try to use them as natural weapons, and even when humans do, the effect is not is nowhere near comparable. You mentioned that humans made spears, so I guess their natural weapons are inferior as I suggested.

Excellent arguement, I agree completely that it is all relative. But I still believe that it's unfair to give the black and white assessment that humans are without natural weapons. Ours are not quite as effective, but we do have them.

I didn't use the cat analogy but I can tell you that, it's a combination of several factors and one of them is that they have strength and agility naturally that humans do not, and they are quadripedal and this ability is a part of the survival skill. Humans are bipedal, and, once again compared to primates cannot run, jump, or balance as well. My position is a matter of comparative analysis. From your limited perspective, every living thing has "natural weapons." But of course that is not what we were speaking of, and our focus in this discussion is specific to human capabilities, as I stated up front.

Fair enough

I think you should talk to your friend that studies zoology, and they will tell you humans do not have natural weapons IN COMPARISON to lower primates. Everything is relative.

I don't have a friend that studies zoology. I study zoology, and I agree that everything is indeed relative

I find it amusing that a green belt in tae kwon do, is on a Kenpo Forum commenting about zoology and human natural weapons to a bunch of career high ranking black belts, (with at least two in their sixties) when we're talking about martial arts.

Well, I obviously got in over my head here, so I'll respectfully bow out. Sorry to have given any offense.

 

[Doc]

I don't recall claiming to be an expert in martial arts... just a fan.

Excellent arguement, I agree completely that it is all relative. But I still believe that it's unfair to give the black and white assessment that humans are without natural weapons. Ours are not quite as effective, but we do have them.

Fair enough


I don't have a friend that studies zoology. I study zoology, and I agree that everything is indeed relative



Well, I obviously got in over my head here, so I'll respectfully bow out. Sorry to have given any offense.

No one wants you to stop participating. But you have to admit, you waded into some pretty deep waters about issues that were essentially "off topic." I am not an expert in zoology, but I do have a passing working knowledge of the martial arts, and human biomechanics sir.

Keep posting, we need the intelligence around here sir. Don't be shy, just check the depth of the water before you jump into the pool. The only organ size that matters around here is the one between the ears.

 

[Kryshah]

No one wants you to stop participating. But you have to admit, you waded into some pretty deep waters about issues that were essentially "off topic." I am not an expert in zoology, but I do have a passing working knowledge of the martial arts, and human biomechanics sir.

Keep posting, we need the intelligence around here sir. Don't be shy, just check the depth of the water before you jump into the pool. The only organ size that matters around here is the one between the ears.

I appreciate that... and I thought I edited the organ thing out.... I thought better of that post, and figured that the appologetic stance was more appropriate. I'll definately be more cautious in future posts. My two cents weren't needed.

On another topic though after this little exchange I looked you up, watched a few of your seminars on Youtube. You have me interested in Kenpo.

 

[Doc]

I appreciate that... and I thought I edited the organ thing out.... I thought better of that post, and figured that the appologetic stance was more appropriate. I'll definately be more cautious in future posts. My two cents weren't needed.

On another topic though after this little exchange I looked you up, watched a few of your seminars on Youtube. You have me interested in Kenpo.

No sir, you got me all wrong. Your two cents is ALWAYS needed. Lots of smart people hang out here, and you're family. Don't sweat it, jump in. Just remember you aren't the only one that can swim sir.

(The Kenpo I teach is strictly scientific. NOT scientific sounding, but in actuality)

 

[Kryshah]

No sir, you got me all wrong. Your two cents is ALWAYS needed. Lots of smart people hang out here, and you're family. Don't sweat it, jump in. Just remember you aren't the only one that can swim sir.

I meant that my opinions and points, while being technically true, had little to no bearing on the topic at hand.

(The Kenpo I teach is strictly scientific. NOT scientific sounding, but in actuality)

As a student of science, I can definately appreciate this. I like to know how things work biologically, and it excites me to figure out how to use this knowledge in martial arts. I'm glad to see that there are folks out there teaching accordingly.

 

[Doc]

I meant that my opinions and points, while being technically true, had little to no bearing on the topic at hand.


As a student of science, I can definately appreciate this. I like to know how things work biologically, and it excites me to figure out how to use this knowledge in martial arts. I'm glad to see that there are folks out there teaching accordingly.

All my students are like you. Smart, educated, and have a thousand questions. You need to talk to Bode, our resident computer code stuff geek. It took me 4 years to convince him that all of his questions will be answered if he just wait a few sessions. With the line up of doctors, lawyers, government computer code writers, and cops, I have to stay on my toes and know what I'm talking about. They actually lay and wait and try to ambush me with info.

 

[Kryshah]

All my students are like you. Smart, educated, and have a thousand questions. You need to talk to Bode, our resident computer code stuff geek. It took me 4 years to convince him that all of his questions will be answered if he just wait a few sessions. With the line up of doctors, lawyers, government computer code writers, and cops, I have to stay on my toes and know what I'm talking about. They actually lay and wait and try to ambush me with info.

They definately sound like my kind of people. I'm a devout follower of the "knowledge is power" philosophy. I keep a fortune from a fortune cookie that I got years ago. "In Vain have you acquired knowledge if you have not imparted it to others." I'm actually studying biology education so I can feed my love of sharing information. With emphasis on zoology of course.

 

[Doc]

They definately sound like my kind of people. I'm a devout follower of the "knowledge is power" philosophy. I keep a fortune from a fortune cookie that I got years ago. "In Vain have you acquired knowledge if you have not imparted it to others." I'm actually studying biology education so I can feed my love of sharing information. With emphasis on zoology of course.

My teacher taught me, "Knowledge has no value, unless and until it's shared." - Ed Parker Sr.

Time to relocate sir. You'll love it!

 

[LawDog]

As I have said before, each to their own belief and way.
On my web site I have listed all of the students that I have taken from white belt to the higher ranks. The advanced ranks have been with me only anywhere from 18 - 32 years, most are still active. I still run my school my way and that way is old school. I do not believe in any of these newer "trendy" ways.
My students are not of lower IQ. It rubs me the wrong way when a statement infers that unless you have higher education you are the type of person that has a lower IQ. Like Mr Chapel my students are, Lawyers, College Professors, State Police supervisors, Municiple P.O.'s, (active and retired), school teachers as well as the good ole down to earth everyday lower people.
Point is this, I still do it the old way and still I have "my own" long term adults, teens, children and not someone elses transfers.
There is nothing wrong with the old way, what matters is how you use it when teaching. At my school I will not sell my standards to make a buck even if this means that I will have to teach out of my garage.
The old ways teach people how to fight and not just to look good.
I will stand behind what I have previously posted about the use of the "horse stance". This is all that I will say on this subject because this thread is going no where.

 

[SL4Drew]

As I have said before, each to their own belief and way.
On my web site I have listed all of the students that I have taken from white belt to the higher ranks. The advanced ranks have been with me only anywhere from 18 - 32 years, most are still active. I still run my school my way and that way is old school. I do not believe in any of these newer "trendy" ways.

For my part, I was referencing a training heritage that pre-dates Karate and American Kenpo. I wouldn't call it trendy.

My students are not of lower IQ. It rubs me the wrong way when a statement infers that unless you have higher education you are the type of person that has a lower IQ. Like Mr Chapel my students are, Lawyers, College Professors, State Police supervisors, Municiple P.O.'s, (active and retired), school teachers as well as the good ole down to earth everyday lower people.

I really don't think this was implied. Maybe you inferred it, but it was not implied.

I will stand behind what I have previously posted about the use of the "horse stance". This is all that I will say on this subject because this thread is going no where.

It's fine if you don't want to offer an explanation to me. If you are teaching it and feel a strong conviction about its utility, I expected you to be able to elaborate and explain. I invited to you to have a dialog with me about how I was wrong, misunderstood, or was misinformed. I even responded to your request for my method. So, you don't have to participate, sir. But don't try to pass it off as if 'this thread is going nowhere' for any reason other than you.

 

[LawDog]

SL4Drew,
I thought that I had explained it to you before. It is a known fact that your Instructor and I just don't like each other and that is between the two of us.
To me your responses were made just to back your Instructor up, I have seen this sort of thing before. If those responses are truly yours then I was the one who understood you.
I was not the one who implied anything.
When real martial artists answer any posting they are usually comming from different mind sets.
1) Instructors - a real Instructor / Trainer will usually answer a posting on the way his / her students, after being trained with this method, have turned out.
2) Students - Their answer will be based if they personally like / dislike this training method.
From which point of view are you from?

 

[SL4Drew]

SL4Drew,
I thought that I had explained it to you before. It is a known fact that your Instructor and I just don't like each other and that is between the two of us.
To me your responses were made just to back your Instructor up, I have seen this sort of thing before. If those responses are truly yours then I was the one who understood you.
I was not the one who implied anything.
When real martial artists answer any posting they are usually comming from different mind sets.
1) Instructors - a real Instructor / Trainer will usually answer a posting on the way his / her students, after being trained with this method, have turned out.
2) Students - Their answer will be based if they personally like / dislike this training method.
From which point of view are you from?

Doc doesn't need me to back him up. He has forgotten more things than many have learned. Rather, I hope he's there to back me up or correct me. Honestly, I prefer the latter because I learn something that way.

The bottom line, is if you like doing something, I am certainly in no position to tell you to stop, sir. But if the only reason you do something is because you 'like' it and have no objective reason to do so, then go ahead and tell me. I really was trying to get you to explain to me why you did something that seemed to have little or no apparent value. I explained why I thought so, giving you the understanding of where I was coming from so you could formulate your reponse.

To ask it again more broadly and generally: Why do you think the static horse is a valid method for teaching weighting and balancing?

 

[RevIV]

I like horse stances. I like making my students do horse stances. It burns the legs and helps to strengthen them. thats about it. I do not fight out of them - I also practice weapons - I do not plan on using a sword in the street either.. should I not train with it? This just seems odd that you should question what someone else does when it does not effect you. I know some people who do not like to chamber their hands, I did not like them the first 15 years I was in either, but i figured a very good reason for them and now have a new respect for the discipline and muscles that I have built by chambering. If a person can teach effectively by using horse stances then that is how they have adapted their style.
Jesse

 

[SL4Drew]

I like horse stances. I like making my students do horse stances. It burns the legs and helps to strengthen them. thats about it. I do not fight out of them - I also practice weapons - I do not plan on using a sword in the street either.. should I not train with it? This just seems odd that you should question what someone else does when it does not effect you. I know some people who do not like to chamber their hands, I did not like them the first 15 years I was in either, but i figured a very good reason for them and now have a new respect for the discipline and muscles that I have built by chambering. If a person can teach effectively by using horse stances then that is how they have adapted their style.
Jesse

It's not at all odd, sir. It's not like I walked in the school uninvited and said 'why are you doing that?' When some one posts a response to a question on a public forum, how raising a question about that post is 'odd' is beyond me. If the criterion on whether to post anything on this forum was whether it 'effected me,' we would hardly have this forum, let alone informative threads.

Enjoying something or liking something a subjective experience, so I really can't take issue with that. So if you enjoy horse stances and swordplay, then go ahead and enjoy them. But if you claim something is an effective training method and commend it to others, then I expect you can explain how and why it is effective and worthwhile. The answer 'just because I think so' may fly on the floor with one's own students, but I submit to you that such a response just doesn't cut it in a place like this with people of diverse backgrounds, experience, and understandings.

 

[RevIV]

It's not at all odd, sir. It's not like I walked in the school uninvited and said 'why are you doing that?' When some one posts a response to a question on a public forum, how raising a question about that post is 'odd' is beyond me. If the criterion on whether to post anything on this forum was whether it 'effected me,' we would hardly have this forum, let alone informative threads.

Enjoying something or liking something a subjective experience, so I really can't take issue with that. So if you enjoy horse stances and swordplay, then go ahead and enjoy them. But if you claim something is an effective training method and commend it to others, then I expect you can explain how and why it is effective and worthwhile. The answer 'just because I think so' may fly on the floor with one's own students, but I submit to you that such a response just doesn't cut it in a place like this with people of diverse backgrounds, experience, and understandings.

If I were to go on about why I use the horse stance the message would be to long and I would get to bored to bother re-reading my own post to check for errors. The details of touch cannot be expressed on these forums very easily. You speak of understandings, how can you understand how someone teaches by reading a response? This may not be someone's expertise, while others on here can write a great story but may move like crap outside the keyboard.

 

[SL4Drew]

If I were to go on about why I use the horse stance the message would be to long and I would get to bored to bother re-reading my own post to check for errors. The details of touch cannot be expressed on these forums very easily. You speak of understandings, how can you understand how someone teaches by reading a response? This may not be someone's expertise, while others on here can write a great story but may move like crap outside the keyboard.

So you inserted yourself into this thread to say you are not going to participate in this thread? And to suggest that a teacher cannot be expected to explain a single training method and exercise so someone can hear it or read it and then understand it is just hooey.

"If you aren't doing what you say you're doing, then what are you doing?" Dr. Chap'el.

 

[RevIV]

So you inserted yourself into this thread to say you are not going to participate in this thread? And to suggest that a teacher cannot be expected to explain a single training method and exercise so someone can hear it or read it and then understand it is just hooey.

"If you aren't doing what you say you're doing, then what are you doing?" Dr. Chap'el.

Your right, you are just to good at this to pick up on any of my humor. And, I am able to pick up on your sarcasm in previous posts I just tried to be the better person. I never said I was not participating, just that when people write to much it gets way to boring. When Ron Chapel writes, I read, when others write to much I just skip over them. Its like a philosophy course. Say the same thing 5 different ways until someone believes you. Horse stance training builds muscle, If that is the only reason I use it then at least I know why its used. It is not the only reason but it is a great one. I guess im off to go play with my sword while you play with your board.
Jesse

 

[SL4Drew]

Your right, you are just to good at this to pick up on any of my humor. And, I am able to pick up on your sarcasm in previous posts I just tried to be the better person.

That wasn't sarcasm.

Horse stance training builds muscle, If that is the only reason I use it then at least I know why its used. It is not the only reason but it is a great one.

That is a 'traditional' reason to do it. It is not however the reason originally proffered, to which I take exception.

I guess im off to go play with my sword while you play with your board.
Jesse

Oh yeah...I'm rubber and you're glue...

 

[RevIV]

That wasn't sarcasm.



That is a 'traditional' reason to do it. It is not however the reason originally proffered, to which I take exception.



Oh yeah...I'm rubber and you're glue...

Thank you for taking that well. I was coming back to edit because I realized I was letting my crying baby in the back ground get my emotions going on this. I just hate when I see people being cut down on these forums. It seemed like a 2 person attack on Lawdog and I felt the need to jump in, kindof why i joined the MA in the first place. And the reason originally proffered I will have to find.. probably in one of the long posts.

 

[Doc]

Your right, you are just to good at this to pick up on any of my humor. And, I am able to pick up on your sarcasm in previous posts I just tried to be the better person. I never said I was not participating, just that when people write to much it gets way to boring. When Ron Chapel writes, I read, when others write to much I just skip over them. Its like a philosophy course. Say the same thing 5 different ways until someone believes you. Horse stance training builds muscle, If that is the only reason I use it then at least I know why its used. It is not the only reason but it is a great one. I guess im off to go play with my sword while you play with your board.
Jesse

Put that sword down.