Stance Training

[Doc]

In my opinion... Stances are transitional.
Example fwd stance used against a attack from the front. If someone attack you could draw nto a cat fire the front kick and land in a fwd bo then continue with the attack using the basic footwork.

Why would you move backwards into a cat stance to move forward?

 

[marlon]

The cat could be escape to the side. then into an attack, ususally moving forwards...Just my thoughts


Respectfuly,
Marlon

 

[OC Kid]

Doc,
In the case of a front attack I would slide backwards as a defensive stance (transitional) in order to gain distance to execute a front kick... Push off with the rear leg and blitz using a step through footwork..
I like that footwork BTW..Big T and Chicken ( remember them) taught me to use it well.

I made that comment as a example thats all.

There are many uses for each stance. Its up to the practitioner to decide when to use them to their advantage.

I think you know or heard of Jim Muse. He used to tell me all fighting was based on 3 things....

timeing
distanceing
and footwork

They are all related...they all dictate the stances and the techniques to be used.
So in my opinion to say that say a cat is for angles or offensive techniques limits the use of them.

I try to teach my students different senarios where the different stances can use used in many different ways.

I still think we ought to get together.. where are you at Im in orange county.

 

[Sapper6]

Doc,
In the case of a front attack I would slide backwards as a defensive stance (transitional) in order to gain distance to execute a front kick... Push off with the rear leg and blitz using a step through footwork..
I like that footwork BTW..Big T and Chicken ( remember them) taught me to use it well.

I made that comment as a example thats all.

There are many uses for each stance. Its up to the practitioner to decide when to use them to their advantage.

I think you know or heard of Jim Muse. He used to tell me all fighting was based on 3 things....

timeing
distanceing
and footwork

They are all related...they all dictate the stances and the techniques to be used.
So in my opinion to say that say a cat is for angles or offensive techniques limits the use of them.

I try to teach my students different senarios where the different stances can use used in many different ways.

I still think we ought to get together.. where are you at Im in orange county.

not to be over-critical or anything but i, personally, would never retreat back even during a transition during an advancing frontal attack. if the attacker has momentum, should there be a collision during your backward transition, it's easy to lose balance and fall backward, then taking the attacker to the ground with you, which is not where i'd prefer to be.

i can see, however, believe it would be practical to use that same stance transition moving to the side/flank of the oncoming advancing attack and using a wheel kick instead. to me, that is more practical in the way you take yourself out of the line of attack, while presenting more targets of your aggressor. but that's just me. :asian:

 

[Kenpo_man]

A lot of you guys seem to be saying the same thing in different words (lol). My opinion on stances is that they definitely are more than just "snapshots" (though I understand the analogy). A proper stance is a set thing. You CANNOT hit with power with straight legs, leaning too far forward or back, or with your weight on your heels. Your knees must be bent, the weight should be on the balls of your feet in most cases. In grappling there is even an equivalent to stances in posturing. There is definitely a wrong way to do it that will greatly detriment your balance, speed, power and overall effectiveness in general. I believe that great care should be taken in the early stages of training to make sure that the student can do the stances well and without thought. After this has been attained the focus can be taken off stances to a degree but there should be some attention to make sure they stay clean. It is easy to become lazy with stances.

 

[Doc]

Doc,
In the case of a front attack I would slide backwards as a defensive stance (transitional) in order to gain distance to execute a front kick... Push off with the rear leg and blitz using a step through footwork..
I like that footwork BTW..Big T and Chicken ( remember them) taught me to use it well. ... I think you know or heard of Jim Muse...

Old names from the past. I feel older now thanks to you.

I still think we ought to get together.. where are you at Im in orange county.

You might find that sans a correcting mechanism, anytime the body moves rearward it slips into an anatomically inefficient and disassociated mode that lacks structural integrity to provide the impetus to overcome significant opposing mass and inertia to prevent a complete collapse of structure. I am in the Los Angeles area when I'm not working on assignment.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Old names from the past. I feel older now thanks to you.

You might find that sans a correcting mechanism, anytime the body moves rearward it slips into an anatomically inefficient and disassociated mode that lacks structural integrity to provide the impetus to overcome significant opposing mass and inertia to prevent a complete collapse of structure. I am in the Los Angeles area when I'm not working on assignment.

this is an excellent statement, doc. while a person may have the ability to move backwards and do so quickly, it is by no means efficient or effective.
from my perspective, bringing your rear foot forward into a cat posture provides the forward movement necessary to deliver a strong snapping front kick. its all about making use of the right timing and distance.

 

[Doc]

this is an excellent statement, doc. while a person may have the ability to move backwards and do so quickly, it is by no means efficient or effective.

While it can be marginally effective at best, (depending on target), what happens next is critical especially if you lack structure and the ability to stop forward body momentum of an attacker - and/or the ability to remain upright on your two feet. A snapping kick to the soft tissue of the testicular groin area can be effective even under the worse circumstances, however if his body momentum carries him into you and knock you down, you may find yourself still in the middle of a fight even though you inflicted pain. Pain is a diversion and deterrent, but not necessarily inconpascitating.

from my perspective, bringing your rear foot forward into a cat posture provides the forward movement necessary to deliver a strong snapping front kick. its all about making use of the right timing and distance.

I agree completely sir. Given that opportunity, I would not teach it any other way. However we must also allow for circumstances beyond our control that necessitates a rearward step, and be capable of compensating through the proper correcting mechanisms to remain structurally sound and defensively MOST effective and upright.

 

[Jagdish]

Sir:

Would you consider holding a stance for some minutes a practical approach for stance training? I am asking this as it is dismiss as an old method.

And would you consider taking low stances as a part of our training in kenpo?

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[marlon]

For training and strengthening the legs and also to develpo a comfort level in the stance that allows you to root in and out of it quickly and powerfully it is important to train your stances as low as possible. The same way we stretch and work high kicks into aour practice although high kicks in kemp[o are generally considered poor practice in a fight.

Also, lowering your center of gravity has many uses all of which require you to be stable and strong to be effective

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[eyebeams]

Cat to forward, eh?

Lots of reasons:

* Shifting the weight backwards while executing a defensive lead strike allows you to move your head out of the way of a tight hook while responding with power. The weight shift combined with shoulder rotation makes this a deceptively powerful shot while the head slips the punch. You can kick from here, but since incorporating Xingyi I prefer to transition into wood fist: a short vertical strike that lands at the same time as the foot drops out of cat.

* One of the classic applications of Naihanchi can be modified for a cat-step instead of a sweep. The lead leg has next to no weight on it, but the rear leg is in fact driving on a relative 45 degree angle to cut into a round kick or a pivoting body movement. This allows you to grab and sweep in a single beat.

* You can rake down into a stomp against a slow kicker quite nicely from cat.

For all of these things, the trick is to learn how to isolate hip rotation from the pelvic girdle so that the lead leg can hold the position you want while you generate power in a different direction.

 

[Doc]

Sir:
Would you consider holding a stance for some minutes a practical approach for stance training? I am asking this as it is dismiss as an old method.

No. This type of training simply for the sake of "strengthening the legs" is unnecessary. The amount of time available for "modern warriors" is limited, and time must be spent conservatively and more functionally toward your goals. I however, would find such stance training in conjuction with other activities of the upper platform much more productive and useful in today's environment. The days when a person could stand in a horse for hours "just" to make their legs strong belong to another time and culture.

And would you consider taking low stances as a part of our training in kenpo?

Only in conjunction sir as I stated above. There are activities that by necessity lower the body into functional low stances, and making these movements functional is enough and all the "low stance" training most need.

Stay well sir.

 

[SK101]

Let's not neglect the silly little fact that you are not, in fact, a cat.

Cats will "grapple," they will bat at each other while standing still and "posing" to intimidate each other. However, to infer that a human (bipedal with no natural weapons) should physically imitate or even take theoretical guidance form a cat (quadrupedal with claws and teeth and significant differences in physiology) is absurd.

Fight like a person, since that's what you are.

Don't forget that they leap from the jungle and always try to attack from behind.

I still like learning from the animals however. Grab someone's hair with both hands and shake them violently and you have a shark kempo. (Please don't actual do this it swells you training partners brain,they don't tend to like that).

 

[LawDog]

For standup everything revolves around good footwork and stances. When on the ground everything will revolve around good floor position,(a floor stance), and transitional technique,(foot work), moves.
For the average person in todays fighting society developing a good horse stace is important so as to develope their "feel" to control these areas,
1) neutral torso position,
When working out of a forward or like stance the average person will tend to lean a little to far forward or to the rear. Practicing a horse stance position will help a student to develop the feel of a neutral torso position.
2) leg weight,
Again when working in various forward or like stances the average student will tend to place more body weight on one leg than the other and they will not realize it. A neutral horse position will allow a student to "feel" weather is leg weight is equal or more on one side than the other.
3) foot weight pressure,
Again in the various other stances because the body is turned etc. the average student will not learn how to feel the weight pressure on the bottom of his foot. This ability to feel foot weight pressure is very important because where the weight is being placed on the bottom of the foot will determine if you are what is referred to as,
a) light, fast fluid footwork,
b) medium, a general all purpose position,
c) heavy, for applying heavy power of continous rapid strikes.
So for the average lower ranked student some training in the stance is important to develop the above mentioned areas.
I personally do not believe in using the "horse stance" for one vs one fight training. It is a tool that can help the lower ranks to develop their much needed "feel" of wight.
Just my views here and nothing else intended.
:ultracool

 

[DavidCC]

Thanks, that's a great post on why to train using horse stance

 

[Jdokan]

Hi Marlon hope your New Year went well!
I still focus on stances, I believe structure is key.....but like anything....it is all open to interpretation....

 

[Doc]

Thanks, that's a great post on why to train using horse stance

Living mammals in general and humans specifically have an innate ability to distinguish weight distribution, and "feel" where they are through various parts of the feet. It is part of the autonomic nervous system and PNF. If we didn't, we'd fall down easily. You cannot train someone to "feel" their own weight anymore than the autonomic sensors will allow. Further, the entire bottom of the foot is utilized and constantly shifts focus from one part of the foot to the other unconsciously from one jiffy-second to the next, in an effort to maintain an upright poster in bipedal stances and movement. A classic example of how biomechanical function is not a philosophy, style, or personal training preference of someone who teaches, but is dictated by the educated sciences of human movement.

 

[LawDog]

The one of the most difficult things to teach a beginner student is footwork and stances. Why? they are aware,feel, their basic sense of balance. Basic levels are not good enough, they have to be brought to a higher level.
Proof, professional sports, lets say football. Do they not work heavily on footwork, low stances etc.?
To simply have the ability to keep upright and walk does not mean that one can do it to their best ability, they have to be trained properly in order to do it and to correct themselves, by feel, if they have done it wrong.
The average person can pick up and hold things without dropping them naturally. In Jujitsu one must, on a higher level, feel themselves and their opponet. This comes through extensive training, especially in the advanced area of "feeling" your opponets motion.
Perfection in all areas of training should be strived for.
:supcool:

 

[Doc]

"You cannot train someone to "feel" their own weight anymore than the PNF autonomic sensors will allow."

"Biomechanical function is not a philosophy, style, or personal training preference, but is totally dictated by the educated sciences and parameters of human movement."

Dr. Chapél

 

[LawDog]

Let the reader decide their own path in which to follow.
Student Al C.
:asian: