Stance Training

[RevIV]

Put that sword down.

how am I going to cut my butter?

 

[SL4Drew]

how am I going to cut my butter?

You aren't this guy, are you?

 

[RevIV]

You aren't this guy, are you?

No, but did you notice how his horse stance held up well against the bean bag bullets and the water hoses.

 

[DavidCC]

No, but did you notice how his horse stance held up well against the bean bag bullets and the water hoses.

ROFL

ladder > sword

 

[punisher73]

I can appreciate the perspective, having been subjected to similar training myself under both Chinese and Japanese Instructors. However, those training methods are culturally influenced and date back to a time when warrior training was intentionally hard, and also designed to build strength and endurance in those whose very survival depended upon it.

Just a clarification of standing in the horse stance. I have read that the purpose of standing in the stance was to fatigue the muscles to get the skeletal structure to align and help support the body instead of just muscle alone. Does this have merit? More specifically, you could be taught how to do this from the get-go by a qualified teacher, or you "self-teach" it if you are dedicated enough through trial and error how to find that structural stability.

I also had another observation about "feeling" weight etc. Is it my understanding that it is a combination of strengthening rarely used muscles and becoming more conscious of the processs? I watched a show (human weapon I think) and they had a series of poles of various heights that were slightly wobbly. They had various people and atheletes hooked up to muscular sensors and attempt to jump from one to another. No one was successful, but there was a "ninjutsu" person who practiced that type of thing all the time and was able to jump from one to another successfully, and the tests showed that many more small muscles were activated around the ankle area that aided in balance. What would the muscular/mechanical mechanism be in this?

 

[SL4Drew]

More specifically, you could be taught how to do this from the get-go by a qualified teacher, or you "self-teach" it if you are dedicated enough through trial and error how to find that structural stability.

Well, you do hear the old tales where the master shows the green student the horse or San Ti Shi and then leaves. And months or years later the master returns, once the student is ready. Based on my experience and anecdotally evidence, you can learn things like this in a 'self-directed' fashion, but you can't be 'self taught' from the first instance.

I also had another observation about "feeling" weight etc. Is it my understanding that it is a combination of strengthening rarely used muscles and becoming more conscious of the processs? I watched a show (human weapon I think) and they had a series of poles of various heights that were slightly wobbly. They had various people and atheletes hooked up to muscular sensors and attempt to jump from one to another. No one was successful, but there was a "ninjutsu" person who practiced that type of thing all the time and was able to jump from one to another successfully, and the tests showed that many more small muscles were activated around the ankle area that aided in balance. What would the muscular/mechanical mechanism be in this?

I watched it too. Keep in mind he was successful in large measure because he had done similar training to the task demanded of him. If you want to get good at something, the only real way is to do it. You can't do bench presses and expect to be good at squats. The fact the others failed further demonstrates the point that if you want to "learn to stand up in a canoe," then that's what you have to practice. Like so much of life, the adaptation occurs because of what is actually demanded.

 

[Doc]

how am I going to cut my butter?

Officer Shoots, Kills Man With Samurai Sword
January 12th, 2009

A police officer shot and killed a man armed with a samurai sword in downtown Modesto early this morning, authorities said. The officer, who has been identified only as a woman, was not injured.

A Fire Department official called dispatchers to report a man with a sword who was acting "bizarre and unusual." An officer arrived soon after and "within minutes" encountered the man holding a sword that was 2 to 3 feet long.

Encountering someone with a knife or other "bladed" weapon can be terrifying. "It's a fear of many officers. And your bulletproof vest is not going to help."

Officers learn in training that someone with a knife or sword can cover more than 21 feet before an officer can draw a weapon. And, if shot, a suspect with a knife can continue to approach. It's not like you shoot someone and they drop down to the ground.

The officer was stabbed in the back with a 6-inch screwdriver at the downtown bus station in 1997 while trying to take someone into custody.

Findlen said investigators are trying to determine why the man had the sword, what he was doing downtown or what led the officer to shoot.

It was reported he was trying to cut some "butter," and the female officer was a recent dyslexic poster on MartialTalk.

"I'm just sayin'"

 

[DavidCC]

Just a clarification of standing in the horse stance. I have read that the purpose of standing in the stance was to fatigue the muscles to get the skeletal structure to align and help support the body instead of just muscle alone. Does this have merit?

well, maybe, but who has the time for that?

my program works out to about $9 per hour of class time. I would seriously not want to spend $36+ / month on standing in a horse stance so tht my legs can get tired... perhaps modern sports science has discovered more efficient ways of finding and training that alignment?

 

[Ray]

perhaps modern sports science has discovered more efficient ways of finding and training that alignment?

Alas my friend, science has found no better way. The dept of defense spent 3 billion dollars over the last five years doing studies and concluded there is nothing more effective than standing in a horse stance all day. (just kidding).

 

[LawDog]

Everyone should do what they feel is best for their students. Who is right will be determined down the road by their students abilities. If your students turned out the way you wanted them to then you did it right.
Your students will be your own history, everything else is just talk with big words.

 

[punisher73]

well, maybe, but who has the time for that?

my program works out to about $9 per hour of class time. I would seriously not want to spend $36+ / month on standing in a horse stance so tht my legs can get tired... perhaps modern sports science has discovered more efficient ways of finding and training that alignment?

Who said anything about class time? I work out on my own FAR more than I am in class. This is where I fine tune it and do the reps to make it my own. I also combine standing in the horse with upper body movements. I know you have said you study Shaolin Kempo, why not work on the blocking sets or do dynamic tension exercises to develop your body.

I agree that JUST standing in a horse stance for no reason is pointless, but there are other things you can do if YOU choose to. I don't make my students do it all the time, only beginners so they can understand the stance and get used to it's strengths and weaknesses. But, in my personal workout, I may incorporate it. I will also point this out to my students if they wish to do so in their personal workouts.

 

[RevIV]

Officer Shoots, Kills Man With Samurai Sword
January 12th, 2009

A police officer shot and killed a man armed with a samurai sword in downtown Modesto early this morning, authorities said. The officer, who has been identified only as a woman, was not injured.

A Fire Department official called dispatchers to report a man with a sword who was acting "bizarre and unusual." An officer arrived soon after and "within minutes" encountered the man holding a sword that was 2 to 3 feet long.

Encountering someone with a knife or other "bladed" weapon can be terrifying. "It's a fear of many officers. And your bulletproof vest is not going to help."

Officers learn in training that someone with a knife or sword can cover more than 21 feet before an officer can draw a weapon. And, if shot, a suspect with a knife can continue to approach. It's not like you shoot someone and they drop down to the ground.

The officer was stabbed in the back with a 6-inch screwdriver at the downtown bus station in 1997 while trying to take someone into custody.

Findlen said investigators are trying to determine why the man had the sword, what he was doing downtown or what led the officer to shoot.

It was reported he was trying to cut some "butter," and the female officer was a recent dyslexic poster on MartialTalk.

"I'm just sayin'"

Well this guy def. had no skills and should of practiced more. In an recent series of one of the coolest new TV shows on the air. "MANswers" they put the bullet against the blade. the sword sliced the oncoming bullet in half.

 

[SK101]

Too many look for the lucky 'tag' and can gain no real control over the aggressor or themselves due to underdeveloped stance training, little knowlegde of the purpose or most useful application of a stance, underdeveloped ability to transit from stance to stance and ability to fight from a given stance logically and effectively, knowing that the base although mobile is still your base. SK states that you can fight from anywhere, yet you still need to be strong and to root as you transit


Respectfully,
Marlon

Hello Marlon, your post brings up an interesting subject. Seeing as we are talking stances and transitions how about doing some posts on why we use particular stances and transitions. I'll just kick off with a couple seeing as there so many stances and transitions. Actually it would be good to start a new thread, but for the life of me I still don't see any link for me to click to start a new thread. Maybe I don't have the right member status to do so.

Half-moon stance - Designed for offense as all 4 limbs easily attack. Disadvantage is many targets are left open compared to other stances.

Side horse stance - Designed for defense. Only 2 limbs attack easily. Targets are much more defended compared to a 1/2 moon stance.

Tiger stance - Same as the half-moon except the back foot is on the ball of the foot. Designed for offense. It is easier to push off the back foot in order to move forward faster than from a 1/2 moon. Disadvantage is less ability to move backward.

 

[LawDog]

Half Moon stance:
This is a power base strance, one can generate alot of energy from this stance. All of your striking weapons are forward so there is very little foot work or torso motion required apply them.
You do have more open targets how ever when one knows what is open and what is not defense of these open targets is really easy.
Transitional motion from this stance gives one a laterial motion when moving towards or away from your opponent.
Side Horse stance:
Without a lot of foot work or excessive torso motion this stance has only two striking limbs available.
In street confrontations everything is a target so from the Side Horse stance you will be giving your opponent your whole back side. Even if you know what target areas are open on you back side your limbs move towards the front of your torso so it will be very hard to defend the back side.
This stance is best applied from a long range where kicks combinded with long range transitional foot work can be used.
In Line T stance / Neutral Bow stance:
Good all around stance. Since the stance is "in line" or off on a slight angel one can utilize fast footwork that will cover the entire "floor clock".
All of your primary weapons are in a fairly good position so they can be applied with little footwork or excessive torso motion.
Because this stance in more "in line" than a half moon stance circular type strikes like the, hooks, ridge hands, sword hands etc. will probably be weaker. Your in line strikes can still be very fast.
Your forward leg is more exposed when in this type of stance. Your leg will be venerable to impact attacks and the grapplers love it when your front leg is exposed in a manner such as this. One should practice good defensive techniques that will protect your front leg.
Note: no matter what stance you are in when power is applied the torso must move, especially from the rearward position. The key is to use enough torso motion to generate the required amount of power.
These are my own views on this subject and not a counter to anyone elses.
:ultracool

 

[kidswarrior]

Actually it would be good to start a new thread, but for the life of me I still don't see any link for me to click to start a new thread. Maybe I don't have the right member status to do so.

A quick time out from the topic to answer this. You can go to the MT main page, click on the forum you want to start the thread in (e.g. Ken/mpo Technical), and when it shows the list of threads, at the bottom of the list is the button to Start New Thread. Hope this helps.

Now, back to the topic. Excellent discussion, btw.

 

[marlon]

Hello Marlon, your post brings up an interesting subject. Seeing as we are talking stances and transitions how about doing some posts on why we use particular stances and transitions. I'll just kick off with a couple seeing as there so many stances and transitions. Actually it would be good to start a new thread, but for the life of me I still don't see any link for me to click to start a new thread. Maybe I don't have the right member status to do so.

Half-moon stance - Designed for offense as all 4 limbs easily attack. Disadvantage is many targets are left open compared to other stances.

Side horse stance - Designed for defense. Only 2 limbs attack easily. Targets are much more defended compared to a 1/2 moon stance.

Tiger stance - Same as the half-moon except the back foot is on the ball of the foot. Designed for offense. It is easier to push off the back foot in order to move forward faster than from a 1/2 moon. Disadvantage is less ability to move backward.

Hello SK101,
i prefer a fighting stance in most dynamic situations as a 'home' stance if you will (my fighting stance is a derivative of the san shin stance used in the form san shin and the beginner breathing exercise), similar to a boxing stance but both heels planted. My take on stances is more functional than traditionall, i think. A forward stance is to push / strike forward through a target, a dragon stance is a mobility function focusing on turning away from force while still approaching a target, not to mention creating good conditions for generating torque. A cat stance is great for 'getting out of the way and setting a great pre condition to 'srping forwards into a strike. Also it is quite deceptive in terms of where you are really relative to striking...a back stance and lean stance (as in 5 pinan)also has this benefit. a twist stance for me is purely for motion and barely a stance at all. the key in all of these of course is central equilibrium and proper rooting. Stance training with all of these is very important to my thinking because it strengthens the legs and develops the root, and also teaches one proper skeletal alignment so that gravity holds you up and not muscle. this kind of trainig benefits overall health and strengthens ones entire system. thanks for this direction in the discussion!

REspectfully,
Marlon