Sport Fighter

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What separates the apprentice stonemason, from a master stonemason.

As for the answer to this-I've no idea. I'm not a stonemason. If you are one, feel free to tell me what makes the difference.

All of us are putting in comparisons and analogies though, and I'm being reminded of my issue with those things to begin with.

Analogy is a great teaching school, because it compares to something you already know, and/or simplifies something. It's a much worse discussion/debate tool, as analogies in general are simplified and lack the complexity of the primary issue. That's what makes them great for teaching, but also what makes them problematic for debating. You can see this just reading along some of the 10 pages of debates on this forum, where the last five pages is people arguing about an analogy, rather than the issue itself.

I'm guilty of that myself a ton.

 

[skribs]

I believe a lot of people are qualified..do I believe everyone is. If they have no personal experience, I would see it as sketchy at best.

Let me ask you this, what makes a person qualified in any area of expertise?

What separates the apprentice stonemason, from a master stonemason.

What separates all Instructors, from video instruction in the martial Arts.

By a majority of logic, watching and practicing is enough, which would even negate the need for resistance training and sparring.

Watching is enough to know what works and what doesn't. It's not enough to know how to do it yourself. Practice (which includes resistance training) is how you get competent. It is the combination of this knowledge and practice which comes to play.

If I've seen someone get knocked out with a sleeper hold, and I've trained how to set up and apply a sleeper hold, then I know I can put someone to sleep, without having to have done it.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

As for the answer to this-I've no idea. I'm not a stonemason. If you are one, feel free to tell me what makes the difference.

All of us are putting in comparisons and analogies though, and I'm being reminded of my issue with those things to begin with.

Analogy is a great teaching school, because it compares to something you already know, and/or simplifies something. It's a much worse discussion/debate tool, as analogies in general are simplified and lack the complexity of the primary issue. That's what makes them great for teaching, but also what makes them problematic for debating. You can see this just reading along some of the 10 pages of debates on this forum, where the last five pages is people arguing about an analogy, rather than the issue itself.

I'm guilty of that myself a ton.

As am I. And, this thread is full of those.

The point was a simple one,

"The experience of doing the job, honing and re-honing the skill and then testing that skill in a real world scenario."

Personal Experience.

Watching is enough to know what works and what doesn't. It's not enough to know how to do it yourself. Practice (which includes resistance training) is how you get competent. It is the combination of this knowledge and practice which comes to play.

If I've seen someone get knocked out with a sleeper hold, and I've trained how to set up and apply a sleeper hold, then I know I can put someone to sleep, without having to have done it.

No you still only have assumed knowledge, it is not actual knowledge, until you have done it. It never will be, sure you can have confidence in the practice...but you do not know, until you do.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

But this discussion, will go on and on. So, I will concede, and it might not seem like it, but I do respect the varying opinions.

It gives me things to consider...

 

[Flying Crane]

@Guthrie: How many fights, on the street, do I need to get into before I can justify being a martial arts instructor?

Straight up question. Please give me an answer.

 

[drop bear]

They also are not healing anybody.

Is that a claim we can make though?

It seems a bit petty to assume just because Faith healing doesn't work that we should criticise it.

So long as people are happy is what is important.

 

[drop bear]

No. But there are plenty of examples. I have never personally performed a lateral canthotomy. But I know they work, and I know I am capable of performing one if it was necessary. I also have no doubt that I could teach someone with the proper background to perform one, even though I've never done one. That procedure is, when you get down to it, about as difficult as executing most self defense techniques, so it's probably a better analogy than transplantation.

And I am sure you are great at it and all. But given the choice I would go to a doctor to have that done.

And basically that encapsulates my entire outlook on martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

If the "it" is a given technique, then isn't it enough to see evidence of it being used in the wild by some folks? We wouldn't know if a specific person's skill with that technique is sufficient to those same situations, but we'd be able to see that the technique can have an effect.

Body punches is a good example here because almost nobody can do them right. They are the black magic of striking.

And so yeah. Body punches melt guys. But you will need a lot more than having been assured they work.

You need to be personally good at them or you are wasting your time.

 

[Buka]

Would somebody ask @Guthrie a question for me, as my guess is he has me on ignore.

I believe he studies Karate. I'd like to know if he's ever actually seen his instructor in a street fight. Or if he's taking instruction on faith.

 

[Buka]

Body punches is a good example here because almost nobody can do them right. They are the black magic of striking.

And so yeah. Body punches melt guys. But you will need a lot more than having been assured they work.

You need to be personally good at them or you are wasting your time.

I think it's important to differentiate between a regular body punching and a punch that hits to the liver. (Perhaps more technically appropriate would be a shot that impacts the liver) Hitting the liver is a crap shoot.

But you are correct, body punching sure does melt guys. And it is an art that appears in boxing more than any other form of combat fighting I've trained in. It's not something you learn in a year, either. But man, it sure is worth it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Would somebody ask @Guthrie a question for me, as my guess is he has me on ignore.

I believe he studies Karate. I'd like to know if he's ever actually seen his instructor in a street fight. Or if he's taking instruction on faith.

@Guthrie, we’ve got a question from Buka.

Would like an answer to my question as well.

Thanks.

 

[Flying Crane]

Would somebody ask @Guthrie a question for me, as my guess is he has me on ignore.

I believe he studies Karate. I'd like to know if he's ever actually seen his instructor in a street fight. Or if he's taking instruction on faith.

Your request is being handled. Please be patient...

 

[Buka]

Your request is being handled. Please be patient...

Yes sir, sure will.

Fascinating thread. Very thought provoking, regardless of opinion.

 

[drop bear]

I think it's important to differentiate between a regular body punching and a punch that hits to the liver. (Perhaps more technically appropriate would be a shot that impacts the liver) Hitting the liver is a crap shoot.

But you are correct, body punching sure does melt guys. And it is an art that appears in boxing more than any other form of combat fighting I've trained in. It's not something you learn in a year, either. But man, it sure is worth it.

I am just getting the trick of it now.

And that is the thing. 80% of people trained in body punching you could let wail on your body and do nothing.

It works. But making it work is another matter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Body punches is a good example here because almost nobody can do them right. They are the black magic of striking.

And so yeah. Body punches melt guys. But you will need a lot more than having been assured they work.

You need to be personally good at them or you are wasting your time.

And this is an area where some type of sport usage (whether formal competition or not) is really handy. I know I can punch a bag really well with my left hand to about the right spot. Unless I land that with some effect on a person - even if it's only hard enough to see that it hit the right spot, without dropping them - I'm still not sure I'm going to land it right. And in a given fight/match/session, it might take a few tries to land it right (and a few tries, each time, to set it up).

 

[dvcochran]

Watching is enough to know what works and what doesn't. It's not enough to know how to do it yourself. Practice (which includes resistance training) is how you get competent. It is the combination of this knowledge and practice which comes to play.

If I've seen someone get knocked out with a sleeper hold, and I've trained how to set up and apply a sleeper hold, then I know I can put someone to sleep, without having to have done it.

I have a hard time with "watching is enough". I will use an analogy. I have been to many seminars or other schools and such and saw someone passionately teaching a technique that they made seem worked very well but in real application did not. In other words, they had a really good sales pitch. A good stage, a compliant partner, a loud voice, an alpha personality, etc...
I agree, each person has to practice to mastery and as instructors we sometimes get caught up in unimportant details and slow the process. One of the hardest things to do is watch a person and understand that their body makeup is why a certain technique looks slightly different. If their technique works well, talk it out and move on.
I think the western culture has pretty much acknowledged most of its ancient mysticism is just that, ancient. It had a time and place but that is long gone and does not apply to todays society. Hard as some people still try.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

@Guthrie: How many fights, on the street, do I need to get into before I can justify being a martial arts instructor?

Straight up question. Please give me an answer.

4385

 

[Deleted member 34973]

@Guthrie, we’ve got a question from Buka.

Would like an answer to my question as well.

Thanks.

I am a little concerned that a "supporting member" will help someone bypass the ignore option and not one moderator, has given a warning concerning this.

My time here as been enjoyable, but I can not support bullying.

Go in peace.

 

[skribs]

I have a hard time with "watching is enough". I will use an analogy. I have been to many seminars or other schools and such and saw someone passionately teaching a technique that they made seem worked very well but in real application did not. In other words, they had a really good sales pitch. A good stage, a compliant partner, a loud voice, an alpha personality, etc...
I agree, each person has to practice to mastery and as instructors we sometimes get caught up in unimportant details and slow the process. One of the hardest things to do is watch a person and understand that their body makeup is why a certain technique looks slightly different. If their technique works well, talk it out and move on.
I think the western culture has pretty much acknowledged most of its ancient mysticism is just that, ancient. It had a time and place but that is long gone and does not apply to todays society. Hard as some people still try.

You have to be able to discern it based on the available evidence. How much do you know about the person demonstrating the technique? Where have you seen the technique?

If you're being shown a technique by someone who has been in real life-or-death fights, who has shown you a bunch of other techniques that have worked in the past, that's a lot different than going to a seminar by someone you don't know.

 

[skribs]

I am a little concerned that a "supporting member" will help someone bypass the ignore option and not one moderator, has given a warning concerning this.

My time here as been enjoyable, but I can not support bullying.

Go in peace.

Other people don't know who you have on ignore.

For someone who doesn't support bullying, you've been calling people a lot of names in this thread (or at least hinting they deserve it) for your unfairly high standards.