Splashing Hands

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Merc, Thank you for your responses so far. I think I understand your point from your last post. We are simply comming from different ideas or philosophies of fighting I believe. I must confess, I'm a mantis fighter all the way so my guage is a little biased towards our principels and methods. I'll outline a few reasons the "slapping" is confusing to me or I do not agree with it. It is find that we disagree, thats the beauty of different systems and styles.

1.) Loosing contact. In mantis we stress contact at all time, so to voluntarily slap your own body with one hand breaks that principle. You would have to break contact with your opponent to make contact with your own body. Or, you would have to drop guard to do so. Thats why I find it confusing.

2.) Your description of "why" centers around creating strength and resisting your opponents techniques. In mantis we do not resist but yield and "go with" the opponents techniques. Thats one of our key weapons is to move with a technique so the opponent hasn't even realized he hasn't performed the technique until he runs into our own attack or series of attacks. We call this "opening and closing the door". Take the same technique you mentioned "Nikyo". Your approach (which I'm not sayign is wrong, just different) is to align the body to resist the technique or pain. From my training I would attempt to yield to it and attack myself. For instance I would want to "get ahead" of the downward movement and bring my body in, bending at the elbow. I would initially use the bent elbow to attack the opponent as well (this is all of course considering I couldn't just let go of the grab at the beggining). See, this way, the opponent is still sending his "force" or "energy" or "center" downward and my elbow would be coming upward. I wouldn't need strength or much power as his downward movement would meet my elbow.

3.) Again you speak of being weak from the elbows, while I rely on that "weakness" to yield and move with my opponent. I dont want to be strong enough to resist a technique I want to be relaxed enough to move with the technqiue and finish the circle into an attack of my own.

Just some differences I see in our training...pretty interesting.

7sm

7Sm:

The strategic objectives of SH are somewhat different than from the Tong Long schools. In SH, the idea is to attack your opponent with a barrage that's too much to keep up with. The rest of the technical stuff follows from that simple idea. In most systems, there is a "re-chambering" of a weapon prior to bringing it back into play. If your objective is a rapid-fire barrage, re-chambering takes a natural weapon out of play for too long. So the strikes, rather than going out-back-out-back, are "stacked" on eliptical orbits that shorten their path by bumping into the body (instead of going behind it or to the side of it), and the bouncing off the body sends it back into the onslaught of the barrage sooner, rather than later.

So, you are correct in that it is a violation of a positioned guard. But the objective is not to be both defensive and offensive at the same time. Rather, to be so overwhelmingly offensive with blitzes and pressing the attack, that the guy defensing can't keep up, and will -- eventually and inevitably -- miss one, starting a cascade of misses that leads to him becoming a human striking bag.

While I have not trained in SH specifically, I have trained with some of Mr. Tino's boyz while he was in Samoa, and you can see the distinct influences in the movements and training drills that are infused into Lima Lama, and do not come from kenpo or kajukenbo.

Regards,

Dave

 

[chris lomas]

Nice explantion
By the by 7*, one of my Splashing Hands brothers also teaches 7* from Lee Kam Wing(sic?) HK lineage. I am sure he is in the ideal position to help you with serious comparision if you are interested PM me and I'll give you contact details.
Best Chris

 

[7starmantis]

7Sm:

The strategic objectives of SH are somewhat different than from the Tong Long schools. In SH, the idea is to attack your opponent with a barrage that's too much to keep up with. The rest of the technical stuff follows from that simple idea. In most systems, there is a "re-chambering" of a weapon prior to bringing it back into play. If your objective is a rapid-fire barrage, re-chambering takes a natural weapon out of play for too long. So the strikes, rather than going out-back-out-back, are "stacked" on eliptical orbits that shorten their path by bumping into the body (instead of going behind it or to the side of it), and the bouncing off the body sends it back into the onslaught of the barrage sooner, rather than later.

Yeah there are some big differences, but this is actually a similarity. One of the major core points of mantis is to overwhelm your opponent with such aggressive action and violence that you...well...overwhelm them. I agree with the chambering point, in mantis we do not attack and then pull back and then attack, it should be fluid from one to the next. However, I have to say that even bringing the attack back enough to "bounce" off your body is too much "chambering" and wastes precious time and energy. We stress no wasted movements, and just in my own opinion, that is a wasted movement as one could attack quicker without bringing the arm back to their own body. I just dont see the natural progression of a punch returning to the punchers body. Its no big deal, just different philosophies, but instead of bringing the punch back to the body to reinitiate an attack, we simply change weapons so to speak. If a punch misses its target, we go to the elbow, then the shoulder, then the hip, then the knee, etc. We also work so heavily on "feel" so that when something misses (or even connects) we can change the attack even into a different angle or direction using its natural circle. My major issue with bringing the hand or arm back to the body is that we use heavy trapping. Bringing my arm back to my body regardless of intent is going to get it trapped and my center taken. WE stay in contact all the time when fighting so someone voluntarily bringing their arm back to their body is really escorting my arm and attack into their body as well.

So, you are correct in that it is a violation of a positioned guard. But the objective is not to be both defensive and offensive at the same time. Rather, to be so overwhelmingly offensive with blitzes and pressing the attack, that the guy defensing can't keep up, and will -- eventually and inevitably -- miss one, starting a cascade of misses that leads to him becoming a human striking bag.

I can see that, but its important to understand that there will be opponents who can "steal the attack" from you and then your left with no defense. It seems your relying on the fact that you will overwhelm them enough to end the encounter, but what if you dont? Without some training on at least defending into another attack, its quite a gamble isn't it?

Nice explantion
By the by 7*, one of my Splashing Hands brothers also teaches 7* from Lee Kam Wing(sic?) HK lineage. I am sure he is in the ideal position to help you with serious comparision if you are interested PM me and I'll give you contact details.
Best Chris

I have trained with Sifu Lee before and my Sifu and Sigung have trained extensively with him, but our lineage is a bit different from his. We focus a bit more on some of the soft principles and "feel" than most LKW lineages do. I guess you could say we use more Tai Chi principles in our fighting.

7sm

 

[chris lomas]

Remember the hand coming back is in lue of another (opponents) body part being availble. If they are actively involved, then you will be bouncing off the attacking limb (ie simulataneous blocking and striking) not bringing back to the shoulder, that is just training maximum extentsion of the theory, not often the practicality . As well that it is coming back only so long as the striking arm goes forward. Also if used as a yielding pak sau it does not cross to the point of being trapable. 7* does this help? I am not smart so maybe not getting your points -sorry.
PS Didn't mean to imply you were LKW student, just letting you know my friends background as he has good success blending the arts (he got best fighter in the Mantis Lei Tei competition heldin Hungary the other week).

 

[7starmantis]

Remember the hand coming back is in lue of another (opponents) body part being availble. If they are actively involved, then you will be bouncing off the attacking limb (ie simulataneous blocking and striking) not bringing back to the shoulder, that is just training maximum extentsion of the theory, not often the practicality . As well that it is coming back only so long as the striking arm goes forward. Also if used as a yielding pak sau it does not cross to the point of being trapable. 7* does this help? I am not smart so maybe not getting your points -sorry.
PS Didn't mean to imply you were LKW student, just letting you know my friends background as he has good success blending the arts (he got best fighter in the Mantis Lei Tei competition heldin Hungary the other week).

Yes that does answer my questiosn alot better, I was more interested in the application of it rather than the theory behind it. IT makes much more sense now that you have explained the fighting application of it.

I wasn't reacting to your mentioning LKW, sorry if I came across as such. I just wanted to point out that our family is quite a bit different from his lineage.

7sm

 

[kal]

Not to bust your bubble or diss your sifu in anyway ,but "Splashing Hands" is not a traditional chinese martial art. It is a creation of Mc Neil's or his sifu. This does not mean it's not/is effective though.

Many have done this learned a number of techniques and then labled it with their own name. I really don't know much about Mc Neil ,but it seems noone knows much about Mc Neil except those that buy his books and are students of his or within his lineage.

This is from the website you posted in your thread.

Ark Wong Yuey is known for many styles ,but i've never heard of him having any knowledge or anything to do with "Splashing Hands" ,plus he's a name that comes up alot from the mouths of many fruads within the CMA community.

Ark Wong Yuey is a name that brings many a TCMA stylist a strong since of hatred ,because it is said he taught anything to anyone for a price. So many ppl claim him as their teacher even those that teach nothing but kenpo/kempo hybrids.

I'm not saying that Mc Neil is a fake or fruad because i don't know him ,but he's surely a secretive person.

jeff

Hi,
This thread has been dormant for some time, but I was wondering if anyone had made any progress recently on tracing the origins of the style back any further. On this and forums, there have been several theories offered (e.g. Mok Gar) but no hard evidence as far as I can see.

 

[Doc]

I copied this from a reply that Dr. Chapel (sorry but can't get the accent over the 'e') over from the kenpo forum here. This might explain why Ark Wong is associated alot with kenpo and why "splashing hands" seems alot like kenpo in appearance.

---------------------------------------------------
Although GM Wong was the acknowledged head of Five Animal Qung fu, he also was the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America. It is here where the legendary Haumea “Tiny” Lefiti landed with a letter from his original teacher when he was discharged from the Marine Corp. “Tiny” was older than Parker but they shared Polynesian Roots and a military kinship because he too had served in the coast guard. Parker however was lucky enough to be stationed in Hawaii which allowed him to continue training with Chow and receive his black belt in Kenpo, Jiu-jitsu, and karate-do while still in the military.

The Chinese influences are great in many areas, from a number of sources. The earlier foray into Chinese Arts saw Ed Parker Sr. beginning to emulate in many ways his Samoan Senior at Ark Wong’s. Having a similar body build made Parker very comfortable with the explosive handwork of “Splashing Hands” he saw with “Tiny.” To put it mildly, “Tiny” was a monster who had himself, a great deal of influence on martial artists in Southern California. Consider him a bigger, stronger and yes, faster Ed Parker and you have “Tiny” at that stage of Parker’s development. Ultimately, “Tiny” left to join Ed Parker’s black belt Tino Tuiolosega in the formation of the original “Lima Lama” organization at Parker’s suggestion. This influenced others like the late Sal Esquivel to spend time at Ark Wong’s as well. Danny Inosanto also was no stranger to Ark Wong’s school before leaving to be with Parker, before going on the road once again with Bruce Lee and also studying Kali and Silat.

Make no mistake. Ed Parker was a student of Ark Wong, and although he spent time with many Chinese Masters, Ark Wong was probably the biggest Chinese influence with Five Animal and Splashing Hands. Even more than his relationships with James (Wing) Woo, or Lau Bun who was his primary Hung Gar influence.

----------------------------------

It doesn't give the history of splashing hands, but it explains where the kenpo connection comes in to play.

Keep in mind that the term "Splashing Hands" was not a strict style term, but more a euphemism for what is essentially a Mok-Gar off-shoot style taught with a hig degree of exclusivity. It was in many eyes, the modern "Kenpo" of its day. that is stripped down and dirty fighting with no underlying philosphical or cultural restrictions, with only the goal of devastating maximum destructive fighting ability.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Holy Cow! This thread is over four years old! :yakko:

 

[Doc]

Holy Cow! This thread is over four years old! :yakko:

Well you know you just bounce around and see something you want to comment on.

I only know a little of James McNeils background from old friends in the Chinese Community and bumping into him a couple of times. While it is true he did study a little bit with Sifu Lefiti, he wasn't a black sash and I think made maybe green? Although I don't know who orignated the term, "Splashing Hands" I did hear Ark Wong and Ed Parker use it a few times in reference to what was essentially Mok-Gar.

But Huamea Lefiti didn't teach strict Mok-Gar either, but infused all of his experiences into his teaching, which he ultimately deemed "Combat Limalama." The euphamistic Splashing Hands term may have been a transitional thing while all parties searched for an identity for the "almost but not quite" Mok-Gar.

 

[chris lomas]

Doc, hate to argue but Sifu McNeil was certainly black sash (I think the last black sash given). He is pictured in a newspaper article at Huames funeral with the other 7 black sashes. He also has the certificates etc.. etc. Please don't post stuff like that without proof, there is enough BS rumour and hearsay in Martial Arts already. If you think that's untrue maybe you should email him, I'm sure he would be happy to talk with you about where you got that idea.

Also he is the only one (to my knowledge) who has kept the system alive in its original form (for example, Huame only taught the animal forms post-black sash as I'm sure you know). He has confirmed lineage from several other (highly respected) Kung Fu Masters in Taiwan (Chaio Chang Hung, Chin Cheng Yen etc.) so he has no need to make stuff up (he cops a lot of flack for keeping this system alive).

 

[newtothe dark]

I have met Sifu McNeil a couple of times and he seemed very Knowledgeable and very forthcoming seems to be a man of high standard. just my .02$

 

[Doc]

Doc, hate to argue but Sifu McNeil was certainly black sash (I think the last black sash given). He is pictured in a newspaper article at Huames funeral with the other 7 black sashes. He also has the certificates etc.. etc. Please don't post stuff like that without proof, there is enough BS rumour and hearsay in Martial Arts already. If you think that's untrue maybe you should email him, I'm sure he would be happy to talk with you about where you got that idea.

Let me repeat what I said sir, "I only know a little of James McNeils background from old friends in the Chinese Community... I know most of the people who made black sash, and none of them recall McNeil getting beyond green. That doesn't mean he didn't make sash somewhere else. In my eyes it doesn't really matter. Knowledge and skill trumps belts and rank all day. If he knows his stuff, its good enough for me.

Also he is the only one (to my knowledge) who has kept the system alive in its original form (for example, Huame only taught the animal forms post-black sash as I'm sure you know). He has confirmed lineage from several other (highly respected) Kung Fu Masters in Taiwan (Chaio Chang Hung, Chin Cheng Yen etc.) so he has no need to make stuff up (he cops a lot of flack for keeping this system alive).

I'm not questioning his credentials because I don't know. But when you say kept the original system alive in its original form what system are you speaking of?

You see, I do know from being there, that there is no original "Splashing Hands" system that Tiny ever taught to my knowledge.

In fact, "Splashing Hands" was a descriptive euphemistic slang term for a derivative of Mok-Gar. Tiny never actually named his style, or his teaching "Splashing Hands." He described it to me personally (1 st person) as more "Combat Mok-Gar," which is what "Splashing Hands" was supposed to be."

But Tiny taught a personal blend and interpretation of the Mok-Gar he learned in Taiwan, with the Five Animal and Mok-Gar blend he learned from Ark Wong, distilled into his own personal fighting system. Later still, he was to call it his own "Limalama." But, even this is not to be confused with other interpretations of Limalama taught by Tino Tuiolosega, and later Sal Esquivel and Richard Nunez. All different.

I don't know who orignated the term, "Splashing Hands" I did hear Ark Wong and Ed Parker use it a few times in reference to what was essentially Mok-Gar, but it was more a reference differentiation from other material dominant in Ark Wongs teaching. Like you would take an automobile, strip it down and soup it up. Its still a car, but you might call it a "Hot Rod" instead. This is the sense I have of the term "Splashing Hands." Not a true style but a 'nickname' of sorts of particular teachings in the Ark Wong lineage.

James McNeil may have liked the name, and chose to call the interpretion of what he had learned by this term. Maybe he heard someone use it. I don't know. However, this style name is not in the Lineage of Ark Wong, Tiny Lefiti, Ed Parker, (or anyone else as far as I know). Only Mok-Gar-Five Animal has that lineage distinction. And outside that lineage, James McNeil is the only one who uses the term.

Huamea Lefiti didn't even teach strict Mok-Gar let alone "Splashing Hands," which he ultimately changed from "Combat Mok-Gar to "Combat Limalama." Once again. the euphamistic "Splashing Hands" term was never an "official" style, at least not in the Ark Yuey Wong, Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti, Edmund Kealoha Parker Lineage I'm very familiar with.

 

[chris lomas]

Hi, Doc,
People like Doug Wong (of 'White Lotus' fame who also studied with Huame), and the late Ralph Shun (Huames Kung Fu Brother and friend under Ark Yuey Wong both acknowledge(d) Sifu McNeil as a black sash under Huame, that may help clear up your thoughts about his grade.

Also Sifu McNeil was kept on green for a looonnnggg time, this may be where this misconception comes from. He often tells the story that Huame said he was ready to grade for Brown, but he was being (mock) humble and said 'No, Tiny I'm not ready' So Huame didn't grade him for over 2 years while lots of new students passed him by. When he finally did he said 'If I say you'r ready, you're ready'.

By original form I mean as Huame taught it (I.e just as you presumably teach Kempo as the legendary Ed Parker did). Who else does, for example, the Short Cross, Combination the way Huame did it (seriously?). Sifu McNeil has 8mm footage of himself and his Kung Fu brothers performing it at competitions etc. No one else seems to practice Huame's versions of the various forms.

Yes it was known as 'Polynesian art of Self Defence' as well as 'Lefiti Kung Fu', he then joinged 'Lima Lama' but Sifu McNeil says that when he asked he said it was based on Zan Shou he learned in Taiwan, but as the name was so close to San Soo and San Shou it was refered to in English as Splashing Hands. As to the name, I don't feel its very important.
Best Chris

 

[Doc]

Hi, Doc,
People like Doug Wong (of 'White Lotus' fame who also studied with Huame), and the late Ralph Shun (Huames Kung Fu Brother and friend under Ark Yuey Wong both acknowledge(d) Sifu McNeil as a black sash under Huame, that may help clear up your thoughts about his grade.

Also Sifu McNeil was kept on green for a looonnnggg time, this may be where this misconception comes from. He often tells the story that Huame said he was ready to grade for Brown, but he was being (mock) humble and said 'No, Tiny I'm not ready' So Huame didn't grade him for over 2 years while lots of new students passed him by. When he finally did he said 'If I say you'r ready, you're ready'.

By original form I mean as Huame taught it (I.e just as you presumably teach Kempo as the legendary Ed Parker did). Who else does, for example, the Short Cross, Combination the way Huame did it (seriously?). Sifu McNeil has 8mm footage of himself and his Kung Fu brothers performing it at competitions etc. No one else seems to practice Huame's versions of the various forms.

Yes it was known as 'Polynesian art of Self Defence' as well as 'Lefiti Kung Fu', he then joinged 'Lima Lama' but Sifu McNeil says that when he asked he said it was based on Zan Shou he learned in Taiwan, but as the name was so close to San Soo and San Shou it was refered to in English as Splashing Hands. As to the name, I don't feel its very important.
Best Chris

Sounds good to me. Next time I talk to Doug I'll mention it. I acknowledge all of those names, (and more) that Tiny used for the/his art. I too don't feel it is important, nor have any real concerns about rank. McNeils lineage is clear, and I saw him there myself.

 

[chris lomas]

Doc,
I tend to see a lot of Lefiti's hand motions in Kenpo, but his 'shuffle' footwork doesn't seem to be used. Is this so it would blend more easily with his former training or for more 'root'? We don't get much Kenpo in England (unfortunately it seems to have remained quite American-based) so I only go of the little I have seen.
Best
Chris

 

[Doc]

Doc,
I tend to see a lot of Lefiti's hand motions in Kenpo, but his 'shuffle' footwork doesn't seem to be used. Is this so it would blend more easily with his former training or for more 'root'? We don't get much Kenpo in England (unfortunately it seems to have remained quite American-based) so I only go of the little I have seen.
Best
Chris

The footwork is there, but in not in the commercial version of Kenpo that doesn't place an emphasis on stances, or stable structure as Tiny did. Commercial Kenpo is all about mimicking the hand movements they've seen Parker do, not realizing where it came from and how much is missing. Parker emulated his senior, Tiny. What I teach is much closer to the origin having been a student of Ark Wong first, and later Ed Parker, and not taught 'commercial kenpo' based on motion.

 

[kal]

But Tiny taught a personal blend and interpretation of the Mok-Gar he learned in Taiwan, with the Five Animal and Mok-Gar blend he learned from Ark Wong, distilled into his own personal fighting system.

So was it Mok Gar he learned in Taiwan? I always thought it was something else, something called Zan Shou Quan.

Doc, do you have any idea who the Taiwanese Mok Gar teacher might have been? Did Tiny ever mention his name?

Also, do the characteristics of today's Splashing Hands i.e. the shuffles on the cross and the slapping of oneself all exist in Mok Gar?

 

[Doc]

So was it Mok Gar he learned in Taiwan? I always thought it was something else, something called Zan Shou Quan.

I've heard that as well.

Doc, do you have any idea who the Taiwanese Mok Gar teacher might have been? Did Tiny ever mention his name?

Actually that was between he and Sifu, and neither ever talked about it that I heard.

Also, do the characteristics of today's Splashing Hands i.e. the shuffles on the cross and the slapping of oneself all exist in Mok Gar?

I don't really have an understanding of what someone would now call "Splashing Hands." It, for me, was a non-existent style even back in the day. I think the Chinese Arts just like more modern ones suffer from semantical descrepancies in their identity. What I called Splashing Hands was just a nickname, a throw-a-way term from a particular perspective of stripped down teaching of the time for certain elements of Mok-Gar.

These terms have been influenced by the Japanese mindset where style names actually meant a specific, non-changing "way" of doing something. Whreas in the Chinese Arts it was a reflection of a particular philosophy from a "family style head."

Both Ark Wong, Jimmy Woo, and Ed Parker all said, "They're all the same." There is this huge body of knowledge, and how you choose to teach it, and what part you choose to focus upon, is why some give it a style name. There was a time when these style names meant more. Now the answer is to talk about philosophy of execution, training, and goals of the teacher. Call it whatever you want, Splashing Hands? Mok-Gar? Kenpo? It's all the same, and none of the same.

For me, spending an inordinate amount of time trying to tie down a name, is not as important as my continuing education of the science of execution. Some have called what I do different things on different nights based on their own background. Some say kenpo, some say not. Some say Five Animal, some say not. I've even heard Splashing Hands, I say not, but does it really matter. My teacher called it kenpo. But he called all of his work kenpo and it is all different depending upon when you learned, and what he wanted to teach you. So I call what I do, "Kenpo as I learned from my teacher in a method and manner he didn't seem to teach anyone else that I know of." Shortened to SubLevel Four or SL-4 Kenpo. There are elements of all observers recognitions, and why shouldn't it be? There truly is only one correct way to do something physically, so when you do these correct.....

"Call any of it what you will, as long as you do it looking up after I knock you down." - Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti

 

[kal]

I don't really have an understanding of what someone would now call "Splashing Hands." It, for me, was a non-existent style even back in the day.

Let me be more clear: I am talking about the characteristic moves that you'll see if you watch one of James McNeil's classes or his videos.

I think the Chinese Arts just like more modern ones suffer from semantical descrepancies in their identity.

Regardless of the whole "They're all the same" philosophy, there ARE certain characteristics that make styles easy to recognise.

You see someone doing bong sao, using a wooden dummy or doing siu lum tao, it's a pretty good guess that it's wing chun. You see someone with hand position resembling a praying mantis ... well it's probably because he's doing praying mantis style. You see someone walking the circle doing palm changes, probably baguazhang.

"Call any of it what you will, as long as you do it looking up after I knock you down." - Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti

You can knock me down so that I'm looking up at you, but that still doesn't make Baguazhang the same as Xingyiquan, or Wing Chun the same as Choy Li Fut.

What are some of the things that I would call characteristics of Splashing Hands? well, these are the techniques or the ways of moving which I have only seen in that style.

Example are:
- Shuffling footwork
- Shuffles and drills inside a painted box on the floor
- Slapping the shoulder or side of body while the other hand strikes
- Practicing strikes with relaxed, open hands which look like you are shaking water off the hands.
- Stiff legged front kick
- Donkey kick
- The Browns
- The Advances
- The Sections
- Four Corners Form (and other forms)

These are some of the things I have never seen in any style except James McNeil's Splashing Hands, and it would be interesting to see if they are present in Mok Gar.

P.S.

 

[newtothe dark]

[I]What are some of the things that I would call characteristics of Splashing Hands? well, these are the techniques or the ways of moving which I have only seen in that style. 
 
Example are:
- Shuffling footwork
- Shuffles and drills inside a painted box on the floor
- Slapping the shoulder or side of body while the other hand strikes
- Practicing strikes with relaxed, open hands which look like you are shaking water off the hands.
- Stiff legged front kick 
- Donkey kick
- The Browns
- The Advances
- The Sections
- Four Corners Form (and other forms)
 
These are some of the things I have never seen in any style except James McNeil's Splashing Hands, and it would be interesting to see if they are present in Mok Gar.
 
P.S.[/quote][/I]

The Slapping of one side and hitting with other hand and the Shaking off type hand postures I have seen in a few Fukien styles as well.