Sparring

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

My rant on sparring, First off i am tired of this TMA stuff where they end up saying sparring dosnt prove anything because on the street its diffrent there are people there are weapons and objects which get in the way.

So when was the last time, while sparring, that you were hit so hard that it took the fight completely out of you? Since that is what we train for (at least in the TMA that I have both trained in and encountered), it makes "realistic" sparring pretty much a nonexistent thing... When A attacks B, and B smashes his arms making them go numb, then smashes his neck making him black out, there isn't much in jumping about while wearing protective gear that really comes out equalling the same thing...

First off what TMA or MMA can really deal with a gun (NONE).

Well, a TMA that allows itself to continue growing to deal with the advances of technology does. Yiliquan has a series of gun defenses designed to deal with generic approaches - i.e. gun to the back or side of the head; gun at belly; gun to either side of the head; gun held close by opponent's side, as if drawn and held close. While they are not assumed to be a 100% effective response (getting even grazed by a bullet will very likely end the fight, no matter what Hollywood would have you believe), they are taught as last ditch efforts to deal with the situation in an attempt to keep yourself as safe as possible. That having been said, there are "non-traditional" styles that allege street effectiveness that are still teaching to block attacks with knives that are both unrealistic and are defended against with blocks and techniques that actually increase the possibility that the defender will get stabbed or cut (my favorite is the upward X block against a downward stab - the defender is going to walk away with both forearms being filleted to the bone...).

Also no martial art is really ment for multiple oppents. Lets just face the facts more then 2 and your in pritty deep water.

Again, your lack of exposure shows itself here... Bagua, for one, is intended for use against multiple, skilled opponents. You can only be effectively attacked by so many people at one time, and after a point they begin getting in each other's way. A "real" martial art (as opposed to a sport or UFC oriented one) realizes this fact, and attempts to capitalize on it...

Also if MMAs had lost in the UFC the TMA would use it to promote it self over MMA arts as MMA has done to Promote itself Over TMA.

You are probably right. I doubt it would be done in quite the same "I told you so" fashion that you imply, however.

Some TMA do work

Actually, all TMA work... However, a TMA taught by someone who doesn't fully understand what he/she is doing, or that failed to train long enough to fully grasp the principles of that art, will not. Same goes for MMA - if taught by a competent person, MMA work just fine. If taught by a nose-picking idiot, I doubt they will work so well...

People say Sparring dosnt prove anything,

Because it doesn't. "Sparring," as it is commonly understood, amounts to two people jockeying for position around each other, looking for an opening in their movement or defense, trying to land a blow - but not one that would actually hurt and incapacitate the opponent. This lack of incapacitating strikes makes sparring a cheap imitation of a "real" fight, and therefore ultimately useless in MA training... It is a fun game for kids, but useless beyond that.

What dos, What would people like a full contact fight with people carrying weapons do they really think they will do better then people that do MMA.

TMA or MMA regardless - an art used for "real" combat on the street deals with the immediate need to incapacitate your opponent. Not roll around on the concrete with him, not dance around trading dirty looks, not hitting the opponent with blows that will do little more than piss him off.

[QUOTEWith out sparring there is no way to truely test your skills without going in a real life or death situation. So befor you spout stuff please try sparring out for your self. The true way to test your system is to fight people at the top of your system then fight people that are out of your system.[/QUOTE]

Judo-kid, I have "sparred" and I have trained with self-defense techniques from TMA. I was both a National and Regional Champion with the AAU, 5 times and 8 times respectively. I have "sparred," and I am telling you that in my experience sparring is a load of horsesh*t. When RyuShiKan (from right here on Martial Talk) told me to punch him with all I had, in the blink of an eye I felt a lightning strike in my arm, and a high speed impact with the floor... There was no sparring involved - just my attack and his response.

If you really believe without testing your skills and system your ready for the street you are some day gonna get a rude awaking.

I would respond with: "If you think that you are really testing your skills by dancing around playing patty-cake with your pal, an convincing each other that such activities prepare you for a real fight, then some day you are going to get a rude awakening..."

Come train with us in Puyallup. You have my email address...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
You need NHB sparring to test your self. Be real take the test and beat the best. Also three step sparring isnt real sparring at least to me.

Come down to Puyallup. I will show you what I mean when I say we do one step and three step sparring...

Just FYI, do you know when kumite first entered common use in Japanese martial arts? I think the answer will surprise you...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Most people nowadays who practice traditional three and one step fight do it incorrectly. That's why some of them believe it's useless.
Actually, the correct method is more difficult than "sparring." Yiliquan does little "sparring" but a great deal of what we call "strategy work" which does involve alot of one-step done in different ways.
If you want to practice with no-holds barred, then one person should end up dead or hospitalized.
If one of my juniors demanded that his senior "spar" with him full-tilt boogie, we'd be short one junior in a few seconds.
The argument for practicing no-holds barred to gain real fighting skill makes as much sense as shooting at each other to learn REAL combat shooting.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by yilisifu
The argument for practicing no-holds barred to gain real fighting skill makes as much sense as shooting at each other to learn REAL combat shooting.

"Aww, c'mon! Can't we shoot at each other tonight sensei???"

 

[yilisifu]

Well, maybe just tonight....but if you both miss, we're gonna work on knife fighting

With Bowie knives

:rofl:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Well, maybe just tonight....but if you both miss, we're gonna work on knife fighting

With Bowie knives

:rofl:

Sounds fun!!! I need a new scar... Last time I got cut all I got was arterial bleeding and a measly 1/2 inch scar...

 

[yilisifu]

And you forgot to mop up the blood before you left for the hospital.....

 

[fissure]

I think sparring has some benefits. I've done point, light contact - I feel it gives you a chance to work on timing with a decent array of tech. Of course without contact there is no fear or panic. You don't learn to deal with the pain and shock of being hit. Both types of formal full contact sparring I've tried ( I used to have a group of friends who trained in various arts, who liked to beat the crap out of each other on our own time - ah the good old days!) Judo and TKD addressed the later problem. Lots of heavy contact which is good, but at the expense of VERY limited tech.
I haven't been in a street fight in almost 10 yrs. (I'm 31 now), I can't imagine any form of sparring can fully prepare you for this situation. I've never been choked out in a TKD tourny. I don't remember Ken Shamrock getting poked in the eye while applying an arm bar. I think sparring is fine - as long as you know that you are ultimately playing a game, even if it is a painful one.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by fissure
I think sparring is fine - as long as you know that you are ultimately playing a game, even if it is a painful one.

Well said.

I have been in the Army for a long time. We use the MILES system to represent shooting during "war games." MILES amounts to really high powered laser tag, and the only danger you are in is of having a really loud, obnoxious beeper go off in your ear.

When I played paintball for the first time (I LOVE PAINTBALL!!!), I didn't realize how very different it would be from laser tag - until I got hit. Since it took about a month for that bruise to heal, I had the lesson drilled into my head every single time I saw it. The lesson was what, you ask? That the real deal hurts and it isn't a game.

I guess for me, I would rather drill a few techniques over and over again, real ones that will dispatch my opponent in a matter of seconds, rather than practice very esoteric though wholly impractical techniques that could disable my opponent, but would likely cause me to be vulnerable as well...

And from what I understand of "traditional" arts, much of the original content was very homely and direct. Kill him. Now. Then go eat lunch...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[J-kid]

I will have to say that your fooling yourself if you do NHB with someone that is really wanting to kick your butt it will get you ready. You will get a aderilien dump also you will get to see what really works.

You say that some TMA are ment for multiple oppents get real with your self.

For starters if you get tackled or if someone gets around you your in deep ****.

Depends if you run into good fighters, Your in deep trouble the only video i have seen where a guy takes on more then one person and get away unhurt is Mike Vallely vs Four random Ocks.

Lets just face it not all people you run across will be that panzy like.

Why do people still try and say that Sparring dosnt prove anything.

People who say this have not done full contact fighting vs someone whos trying to hurt them and vice versa because i will tell you what it sure feels like a real fight.

 

[fissure]

Does anyone read all of the post in a thread anymore?
Again I have fought full contact. I had only the fear that I would be K.O.ed. I have never worried about my opponent stomping on my unconscious skull after he dropped me until I was dead. I have never in full contact sparring worried about another competitor cross facing me from behind.

I agree that having the expectation of being able to defeat multiple opp. is risky at best. I have fought 3on 1, and 4 on 1 before. Both times I did O.K. That is to say I walked away with minor injuries, and few of them were at least in the same condition. I am the first to admit that these guys weren't exactly bad asses, and if I'm in that situation again things could be very different.
I don't know of a TMA instructor who sells his art by claiming you will be able to take out half a dozen guys at any time!

 

[yilisifu]

The fact is.....

Sparring must rely on rules for the sake of safety. Real fighting knows no such thing. I used to keep a sign up in my training hall which was a quote from "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid"........
RULES? IN A KNIFE FIGHT?

It expresses the idea perfectly.

When you say "no holds barred", I take that literally. It means I can bite my partner's ear off, crush his testicles, or slam my elbow into his throat or temple if I get the chance, right?
If that's not allowed, then it's not truly "no holds barred."

Traditional martial arts ARE meant for handling multiple opponents. Remember that these arts were developed for battlefield use, not for putting on a pair of Speedos and playing grabass. They were not designed for use in a nicely padded, roped-off ring. There were no second place winners.

I have been training in traditional martial arts most of my life. As a peace officer, I have run into many situations involving one, two, or even more opponents.

I have no scars. My traditional training held up just fine.

You idea about "it depends on if you run into good fighters...." There are always "IF's." It also depends on whether or not they are armed and what they are armed with, how many there are, if you're tired or injured......there is always an IF.

Please don't try to judge the effectiveness of traditional arts unless you have trained in them for at least ten years. After a decade of REAL traditional training, come back and we'll talk.

 

[fissure]

I'm assuming that last paragraph was directed to Judo-Kid;

Please don't try to judge the effectiveness of traditional arts unless you have trained in them for at least ten years. After a decade of REAL traditional training, come back and we'll talk.

If not, I've been training in Traditional Arts for 24 yrs.

 

[J-kid]

I am talking real NHB, under ground NHB fights.

 

[J-kid]

Why should i come back in tens years LOL, I can look at people doing it there whole lives as a good example. How about you go and face a True mixed martial artist and then come back and talk to me.

 

[Quick Sand]

Back to the original question, my style does only light contact, point sparring. No strikes below the belt, no contact to the head, no contact to the back. People below brown belt are not even allowed open hand techniques. There are also no "uncontrolled" techniques allowed.

Personally I like this just fine. It teaches control. If you do a technique to the head and make contact, you're disqualified. If however the techniques stops like 2 inches from the head and you're fully extended so you couldn't make contact, that's not a point. You have to stop the technique but within the range that you could have made contact if you'd wanted to.

I know a lot of people will say that this style does not prepare you for a real fight etc. and will probably jump on my for this, that's fine. I actually agree. It doesn't prepare me for a real fight but I plan to do anything I can to AVOID a fight. I'm not training the the MA's to increase my pain tollerance, get my a** kicked or learn to kick other peoples a**. I like the challange and that I do know some self defense techniques if a situation ever does arise but I will still do anything I can to avoid that. I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty much a wimp. That doesn't mean that I can't take a full powered hit ( I have sparred with people that haven't learned how to control their stuff yet) but I PREFER to not get hit that hard.

I like point sparring just fine and plan to stay with it. :soapbox:
Stepping down now.

 

[chufeng]

Thin-ice JK...

chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Quick Sand
........It doesn't prepare me for a real fight but I plan to do anything I can to AVOID a fight. I'm not training the the MA's to increase my pain tollerance, get my a** kicked or learn to kick other peoples a**. I like the challange and that I do know some self defense techniques if a situation ever does arise but I will still do anything I can to avoid that. I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty much a wimp. That doesn't mean that I can't take a full powered hit ( I have sparred with people that haven't learned how to control their stuff yet) but I PREFER to not get hit that hard.

I like point sparring just fine and plan to stay with it. :soapbox:
Stepping down now.

as long as you know what you are getting out of it....

heck, you can be doing MA simply b/c you enjoy wearing the uniform....

as long as you don't train in A and expect to get B.....all is well...

 

[JDenz]

Don't wrte any headlines or anything but for once I agree with Judo kid. Anybody that thinks they are ready for a street defense situation that doesn't spar at all is out of there mind. Buy the big red suit. Anyone that doesn't actully hit attackers and take a few hits themselves are not as ready as they can be.
MMA arts are the best on the street because if it is real MMA then it has good striking, good takedowns, and good ground fighting. If it is a grappling art like all the TMAists seem to think MMA is they are still okay I would think, as long as they have good throws. No mater what you think more then one on one usually involves weapons an other nice surprises. I would say mos TMAists are not preparied to deal with situations that arise on the streets. Obviously the few people that train hard core will be prepaired but on the whole I would say 90% are not prepaired.

 

[fringe_dweller]

Chufeng,

I am interested in how you spar - three step? - and what it involves. I study hkd and a there are a lot of things which I would not like to try applying on someone unless I really wanted to hurt them. Hence on the rare occasions where I would spar I mostly use kicks or strikes with occasional arm bars.

Respectfully,