sparring

[Seabrook]

so lemme guess......thats how you spar?

I don't do enough of full-contact as I would like, but I do spar regularly and not for points.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't do enough of full-contact as I would like, but I do spar regularly and not for points.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Low kicks? Clinch? Takedowns? Groundwork? Weapons?

What elemenst do you incorporate into your sparring?

 

[Seabrook]

Low kicks? Clinch? Takedowns? Groundwork? Weapons?

What elemenst do you incorporate into your sparring?

No weapons, but I do use low kicks, clinches, and takedowns if I fight full-contact. I must admit my groundwork is less than adequate, but I am working on applying kenpo on the ground. It takes time.


Keno rocks,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[lonekimono10]

kenpo works up or down, just have to know what to look for(not saying that you don't) just droping by,

 

[Andrew Green]

If you want to learn groundfighing you will be far better of finding someone that already does to train with then making it up from scratch...

Kenpo is not for the ground, it is for fighting on your feet. Trying to make it into something it isn't is a bad idea and makes things look bad from the outside.

No art has everything, and admitting that doesn't make any art inferior.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i guess that depends on who the teacher is.
when i first started studying kempo.....it was mostly grappling. it was jujutsu.
we didnt really differentiate between striking and grappling.....you hit when you had to, you grappled when you had to.
i must admit i was rather shocked the more exposure i had to american kenpo that it didnt "seem" to include it more.
there are different "kempo" 's out there that do different things.

 

[The Kai]

I think Mr Green is talking about hardcore groundfighting (think UFC) rather then stand up joint locking into takedowns stuff. There is a big diiference.

 

[Andrew Green]

I wouldn't call it hardcore

It's quite safe, we got 6 year olds doing Submission Grappling....

 

[The Kai]

You mean HardCore 6 year olds, right? I meant it in the sense of methodology rather than intensity

 

[BallistikMike]

I just pointed out what "I" feel happens when you "Spar" and judge by that alone.

Point sparring, continous sparring, MMA sparring, all have merit. I was just saying in the context of the post that it will also hinder you. I feel it will create bad habits when you apply it to the street application of self-defense. I have done MMA, did I train with a champion. Nope. I have rolled with some names that you would recognize, so what. It had no bearing on what I have seen for the past 13 years in the bar I own when it came to self-defense.

The effect it did have was I "Uped" the threat on the self-defense techniques I practice and if you miss..well...you get clocked. Also allowed me to move into more of a pressure test atmosphere. So I gleaned a "Huge" amount of info from getting smacked around by MMA, Jiu Jitsu and Wreslters. I never said I didnt. In fact I acknowledged it.

What I am saying is if you believe that MMA sparring is the end all be all of judging self-defense you would be wrong. There is a lot more application then the "resisting" and "full power" shots of the drill (sparring).

Conditioning, heart, will to win, competiveness are also benefits of sparring. They are also benefits of sound training and drill work.

Point sparring I used as the lowest example of sparring I could find. Some of you use MMA training as the highest. Where does the majority fall in at? What do you do when you reach the age of 35+ and have actual jobs and life you need to be part of?

I never said the way I train is perfect. Ever. I never said the way I train encompasses everything. Ever. What I did say is there are other ways to pressure test, there are other ways to become effective, maybe some are better or worse.

Paraphrase Andrew... stick with what you know and enjoy what you do...

I like that.

As I have always said you can learn a hell of a lot from this board. A hell of a lot.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I think Mr Green is talking about hardcore groundfighting (think UFC) rather then stand up joint locking into takedowns stuff. There is a big diiference.

well, for the record, it wasnt stand up joint locking leading to takedowns. that of course was practiced but, the majority of our fighting was done on the ground unless it was specified before hand that we were not allowed to go down.
we did this on a concrete floor without pads. if you got punched or kicked in the face, it hurt. you learned to fall properly as a means of preservation, you learned to block and evade as a means of preservation.
we were taught this way because he thought that was the only way to learn.......that was the way he was taught.
not too many people stuck around for a long time, because quite frankly, you left just about every class wondering if you were going to show up for the next one.
lots of "tough guys" showed up to try out their stuff.....some liked it, others didnt.
yeah, you could call what we did sparring......but its nothing like the sparring i see going on at other places.

 

[Doc]

well, for the record, it wasnt stand up joint locking leading to takedowns. that of course was practiced but, the majority of our fighting was done on the ground unless it was specified before hand that we were not allowed to go down.
we did this on a concrete floor without pads. if you got punched or kicked in the face, it hurt. you learned to fall properly as a means of preservation, you learned to block and evade as a means of preservation.
we were taught this way because he thought that was the only way to learn.......that was the way he was taught.
not too many people stuck around for a long time, because quite frankly, you left just about every class wondering if you were going to show up for the next one.
lots of "tough guys" showed up to try out their stuff.....some liked it, others didnt.
yeah, you could call what we did sparring......but its nothing like the sparring i see going on at other places.

I wouldn't call that "sparring" - That's some serious training.

I think most of the differences here are semantical. What is generally called "sparring" I don't think you or I do.

 

[MJS]

IMO, you're going to get out of it what you put into it. This not only goes for sparring, but for all aspects of training. What is the goal? Once that has been determined, we can adjust the training accordingly.

Mike

 

[Doc]

IMO, you're going to get out of it what you put into it. This not only goes for sparring, but for all aspects of training. What is the goal? Once that has been determined, we can adjust the training accordingly.

Mike

Which is why I select my students, and unfortunately reject many.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Which is why I select my students, and unfortunately reject many.

have you selected students, only to reject them later because they couldnt cut the mustard?

 

[Doc]

have you selected students, only to reject them later because they couldnt cut the mustard?

No sir. I've never had to dismiss anyone, but my screening process is fairly thorough. Interview and personality assessment, preliminary civil and criminal background check, etc. The majority of my students are well educated professionals from various fields heavily represented by law enforcement, who know what they're getting into. I'm forced by the curriculum to exclude children, and all those who might have an adverse effect to physical, and emotional stress, as well as academic deficiences. I'm fortunate to have that luxury because the school is not designed to be a primary source of income, but only support its own function and structure. I have never taught any other way. Lucky me.

 

[goshawk]

The average boxer, on the other hand, has 3 to 4 good punches he's worked ad nauseum, and has worked out throwing them, hard, while someone else is throwing them at him. He CAN hurt me, and he CAN continue to think on his feet while I hurt him...an ability I think the average kenpoists loses right after they get their melon rung for the first time in a fight. Especially guys who have never sparred.

I think you have a good point here. Thinking back to my first few weeks of sparring, I remember how totally shocking it was sometimes. I mean, I'd never been hit in my entire life, and those gloves didn't help the impact one bit. My first bloody nose was almost totally disheartening.

Then I got used to it. If I've taken anything out of sparring, it's being just a little more comfortable with the idea of people throwing punches at me to connect. That's experience I never would have found elsewhere, short of a real SD situation. I fully acknowledge that sparring isn't a real fight, and that the adrenal dump isn't generally a factor in the dojo, but I don't think that's grounds for doing away with it as a tool. And forgive me, but I'm rather glad that my bloody nose initiation was given by a sparring partner, rather than someone wanting my wallet.

Sparring is, essentially, wind-sprints with bruising.

::laaaaaughing:: That may just be the best description I've yet heard.

 

[The Kai]

well, for the record, it wasnt stand up joint locking leading to takedowns. that of course was practiced but, the majority of our fighting was done on the ground unless it was specified before hand that we were not allowed to go down.
we did this on a concrete floor without pads. if you got punched or kicked in the face, it hurt. you learned to fall properly as a means of preservation, you learned to block and evade as a means of preservation.
we were taught this way because he thought that was the only way to learn.......that was the way he was taught.
not too many people stuck around for a long time, because quite frankly, you left just about every class wondering if you were going to show up for the next one.
lots of "tough guys" showed up to try out their stuff.....some liked it, others didnt.
yeah, you could call what we did sparring......but its nothing like the sparring i see going on at other places.

Should'nt sparring complement your training and not be an end it?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Should'nt sparring complement your training and not be an end it?

i guess that all depends on what you're trying to get out of it.

because my first exposure to fighting was a little bit different than what i experienced in other schools after.......i thought the other method of training was lacking in some serious realism.

even after the training i did.....i still had my own doubts as to the effectiveness of "my" self defense, though, it never failed me when i had to put it into action.
my only problem with the approach that some schools take towards sparring is that sparring IS the "be all, end all" of training and that it is a true gauge of your abilities.

i think this gives people a false sense of their capabilties. taking one in the noodle while sparring is nothing like taking one in the head from someone that wants to hurt you ......as you well know from one of your previous posts. sure, it gets you used to being hit, and having things thrown at you, and maybe you get to throw out a few rapid fire punches. you start to think to yourself, "yeah, im one bad dude."

the first time someone grabs you by the throat will shock the crap out of you. as he lines you up for reconstructive dental surgery you decide to throw a few quick shots in his direction, patting down his face like a massage therapist...........because this is your first instinct that you have learned through repeated sparring sessions in which the goal was to hit and score on your opponent (it may hurt a bit, but you werent trying to take your sparring partners head off). this leads to having to re-group and trying all over. you have already lost the precious seconds needed to thwart the attack and now find yourself in a position that requires different measures.

thats my problem with sparring.

i dont intend on fighting in a cage or a ring.

 

[Andrew Green]

i think this gives people a false sense of their capabilties. taking one in the noodle while sparring is nothing like taking one in the head from someone that wants to hurt you ......as you well know from one of your previous posts. sure, it gets you used to being hit, and having things thrown at you, and maybe you get to throw out a few rapid fire punches. you start to think to yourself, "yeah, im one bad dude."

Spar harder, and if it is a real concern, compete. Then you will have a very skilled fighter trying to knock your head off.

the first time someone grabs you by the throat will shock the crap out of you.

I'm sorry, No one ever grabs you buy the throat in sparring?

Why not?

The less restrictions you place on sparring, the more effective it is. If you remove all grabbing and stop as soon as someone hits the ground, don't make contact etc. You are missing a good chunk of the benefit sparring has to offer.

you have learned through repeated sparring sessions in which the goal was to hit and score on your opponent (it may hurt a bit, but you werent trying to take your sparring partners head off).

So gab some 16 oz gloves & headgear and spar harder.


You cannot judge the value of sparring based on one method, expecially a highly restrictive and light contact method. Doing so would be like judging the effectiveness of Kata based only on Sport Karate Creative forms. I'd imagine most Traditional Stylists would object to such a comparrison?