sparring

[BallistikMike]

Mr. Chapel (Playing the devils advocate) if that is the case.

How come Mr. Parker had so many "Sparring" techniques and also the Internationals for competition?

LOL... I wrote about 5 minutes worth of stuff trying to explain what I felt and why? It all sounded so argumentative and that is the furthest thing I wanted. So I'll just let my question stand alone and maybe you could run with it for awhile.

 

[eyebeams]

Well, it depends on whether the person is:

1) Charging while blitzing.
2) Charging to tackle.
3) Shooting, which isn't really a charge.

1) Angle away while disrupting his rhythm or balance. Bad blitzers end to be "hardwired" into their combo once they move, so a goos, solid shot can spoil their unconscious plan.

2) Throw this joker, but watch out for a sudden snap back into a throw attempt. Wrestlers and football players like this kind of thing. I've successfully inerrupted this with a choke.

3) Sprawl or drop your stance, go for an under/over hold or a head control.

You can try to angle in 2 and 3 too, but these tend to happen at much closer range. Strikers like to close and leave a lot in a ring, but in a serious fight they tend to stay close. Generally, intensity increases with range unless you can seriously diminish the person's enthusiasm.

 

[Seabrook]

Assuming a person was not stiking but "charging to grab," what if you just let him run into you, but you are so structured it would be to his detriment?

Hmmm....could you be a little more specific here?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

Funny, Mr. Parker felt the same way.

Well then, if that is true, then I disagree with Mr. Parker.

Sparring is a critical component to one's development of self-defense and confidence (of course, I am not talking about point-fighting here).


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[DavidCC]

Assuming a person was not stiking but "charging to grab," what if you just let him run into you, but you are so structured it would be to his detriment?

You must have high rank in the art of the leading question

And you know that this topic is high on our list of things we want to understand when you come to Omaha in LESS THAN THREE WEEKS!

 

[OC Kid]

Well I aient no Doc by no means but I would say that once people start concentrating on sparring the other aspects of the system tend to set to the side. Especially the SD and forms and basics.

At least thats what happened in my case.

 

[Ray]

Sparring is the part I enjoy the most. I hope there will be some elaboration on why sparring takes more than it gives.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

when practicing self defense one has very few options.....escape or fight.
i only practice for self defense, so i make sure that what i do is as fast and efficient as possible. whether im practicing to control an opponent by destroying his ability to maintain base while locking him up or control him through the use of strikes, it must end quickly. it isnt always pretty, but it has to be functional.
sparring on the other hand is a contest where people tend to dance around each other hoping to not get tagged all the while trying to tag their opponent. this is not an efficient use of time and energy.
i am, admittedly, a horrible stand up sparring person, and some would say this is a detriment to my ability to use martial arts effectively in a self defense situation. this is because when i spar i tend to use all of my resources at overwhelming my opponent both physically and mentally, and this does not fit well within a sparring situation.
had i a teacher when i first started training in kempo focus more on sparring over self defense this might be different, but im glad i didnt.

 

[The Kai]

There are differnt types of sparring, that train differnent aspects. To say sparring is dancing around trying not to get tagged shows a blind spot in regards to footwork, timing, distance and using angles in a free form stuation. Is it the end all of all questions-NO-but it is a piece of the puzzle

 

[BlackCatBonz]

ive been in plenty of free form situations e.g. self defense
you can practice self defense in a free form situation and practice footwork, timing, distance and angles quite easily.
most sparring ends up being a dance contest......most
most people practice self defense with a preset routine that has attacker punching, kicking or grabbing.
while drills like that are certainly effective at getting a person to move, the real practice starts with the unknown......losing the techniques and preset routines.
sparring tends to get people into a routine that is hard to break out of, one of which ends up being dancing around their opponent.....people have to learn to poop(fight) or get off the pot(escape).

 

[Seabrook]

Well I aient no Doc by no means but I would say that once people start concentrating on sparring the other aspects of the system tend to set to the side. Especially the SD and forms and basics.

At least thats what happened in my case.

I agree to a point.

But if you don't spar regularly, how do you know you can truly defend yourself in a real fight? Don't get me wrong....I am a techniques fanatic. But what good are the techniques if you can't apply them when someone is trying to take your head off and the fight isn't choreographed?

Sparring is critical. Kenpoists that spar regularly are typically tough as nails. And those that don't, well, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not convinced you can defend yourself against someone really tough.

Also, how does one's basics deteriorate when one spars often??? I would argue 100% to the contrary. In fact, your basics improve more when you trying to hit a real target.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[The Kai]

Free form self defense tends to move slow and obvious. It is impossible to approach free form self defense at speed due to safety considerations. Avoiding a preset technique is great way to train the flexibilty of the mind but agian a piece of the puzzle
As for most Sparring being a Dance contest, have'nt noticed that-in fact that is the saw that most people who don't spar use to scoff and downplay sparring. The maneuvering that fighters do on the outside is'nt much different from a bar fight! think about it how many bar fighters step up and launch a punch? do they (preengagement) try to circle behind you or distract or unbalance you with verbal or physical motions? Sparring correctly is harder then you realize!

As Mr Seabrook said and my teacher believes that sparring is the "X" factor .
One's basics suffering comes from a teacher that ignores the immense value of basics

 

[Andrew Green]

Many people have no idea that sparring can mean something other then the no-contact stop and go point fighting used in open tournaments...

For them, "sparring" is of no use, but neither are guns in a real battle, after all, all they do is squirt water.

 

[BallistikMike]

I'll answer what I think sparring does for you.

It allows you to have a sporting chance of playing a game to get more points (hits) then the other guy. It is a great confidence booster when you win. Develops great comradeship. Allows for a resisting opponent with varying degrees of resistance.

What I think it doesnt do for you.

It destroys the actual footwork you will see during a self-defense encounter.

If you honestly believe the hype of keeping high stances and mobility then you also believe the hype that all fights go to the ground and then they do, because of your high stance and mobility. Im not saying rooted to the earth with chains mind you, but rooted stances allow for better footwork. I know you think Im nutz and thats ok.

You can have resisting self-defense techniques once the basics have been learned. I dont understand that question or reason of thought how people say sparring gives you a resisting opponent? Really? How so? You both square off, you both understand the rules, you both understand its just a game and people need to work the next day. Sure you are having to effectively overcome your sparring opponent, dont you all do this for your self-defense techniques? Dont you all put yourself in such positions that you are at a complete disadvantage and need to workout from it? Sparring makes it all equal, it starts from neutral. Resistance that comes from starting from "negative" now that is a resisting opponent. That is what training self-defense techniques is compared to sparring.

Is sparring lining up on a wall and having 2 - 3 - 4 people come at you in mob form or one at a time, then throw some others with shields in rushing you so you can practice full power, not sparring power, huge difference by the way. When does it become drill work and not sparring.

Sparring is just a drill. Boxer's spar all the time and consider it a drill. They never go as hard sparring as they do in the actual ring of a match. Never. Otherwise its a match. They are training for a very specific type of match though and the sparring they do is designed to emulate that match as close as possible.

So sparring is trying to emulate our match as close as possible then. So we are going to encounter an opponent who understands our fighting system, lines up in front of us, the ref says begin? Nope.

Sparring? Yeah it helps, but unless you train with resisting opponent's as close to the venue "match" that you will see you are hurting yourself more then you are helping yourself.

Resisting opponent's is a huge benefit you get from sparring. You lose much of it when you apply it from a match perspective and not an ambush perspective. Its not just about taking the punch or delivering the punch. Its as Mr. Chapel states "Surviving the intial attack" (used as an example) and that has been around a long long time. This is where I think "Sparring" hinders your ability the most. That false perception of being the "dojo" or "gym" bad @$$ when it really only matters if you can survive that initial onslaught. That is what needs to be trained the most, not the combinations and techniques afterwards thats easy...thats sparring.

So yes sparring has it purpose. To line you up against a similar knowledge of players, doing similar techniques in a controlled environment trying to relpicate a match that you will only see in competitoin or in the gym/dojo. Dont get me wrong the resisting opponent is flat out awesome, what exactley are you or they resisting against though?

Also when you say "sparring" are people meaning resisting opponent's? Because that is a far different view then what I have of "sparring" We resist and pressure test everything we do in the club Im in and by no means what so ever can you call it sparring.


You make the call of whether that is helping you or hindering you.

 

[eyebeams]

If you honestly believe the hype of keeping high stances and mobility then you also believe the hype that all fights go to the ground and then they do, because of your high stance and mobility. Im not saying rooted to the earth with chains mind you, but rooted stances allow for better footwork. I know you think Im nutz and thats ok.

No, I just think that you haven't necessarily kept up with the last decade of training in mixed, full contact venues. In the beginning it was indeed true that strikers had a poor base because they didn't need it in their main (striking only) sport. Current MMA sport fighters use lower, more rooted postures, but unlike people who train solely with drills, they know how to mix it up with dynamic shifts in posture. This is not an advantage of technique but in knowing how to apply the tools at hand.

Plus, of course, people who don't spar freeze when they take a face shot almost every time.

The disadvantage of the sport appraoch comes from unrealistic pacing (in self-protection situations, "conserving gas" is usually irrelevant) and training periodization (you want to be ready all the time, and not necessarily exhausted from training up to a match). This and the applicability of techniques that don't work in sparring sitautions can be remedied by good coaching instead of set dogma about what "sport" is.

 

[The Kai]

In most stress filled street fights, conserving gas or holding back don't usally come into play

 

[Andrew Green]

It allows you to have a sporting chance of playing a game to get more points (hits) then the other guy. It is a great confidence booster when you win. Develops great comradeship. Allows for a resisting opponent with varying degrees of resistance.

Who said anything about points?

It destroys the actual footwork you will see during a self-defense encounter.

Wha?!?

So, doing something that requires footwork, destroys your footwork?

If you honestly believe the hype of keeping high stances and mobility then you also believe the hype that all fights go to the ground and then they do, because of your high stance and mobility. Im not saying rooted to the earth with chains mind you, but rooted stances allow for better footwork. I know you think Im nutz and thats ok.

Yup, rooted stances are a great way to get taken down.

You can have resisting self-defense techniques once the basics have been learned.

Yup, it's called sparring

I dont understand that question or reason of thought how people say sparring gives you a resisting opponent? Really? How so? You both square off, you both understand the rules, you both understand its just a game and people need to work the next day.

Alright, given all of that, can you explain how your method of providing resistance gets around all of that?

Sounds like you are saying it's not perfect and has some of the same weaknesses as other methods so don't bother.

Sure you are having to effectively overcome your sparring opponent, dont you all do this for your self-defense techniques? Dont you all put yourself in such positions that you are at a complete disadvantage and need to workout from it? Sparring makes it all equal, it starts from neutral. Resistance that comes from starting from "negative" now that is a resisting opponent. That is what training self-defense techniques is compared to sparring.

So don't start from neutral... I'd imagine you'd have a hard time finding a grappling club that always started from a neutral position. And even if you do, it doesn't stay neutral very long. It is just a starting position, fights are fluid.

Sparring is just a drill. Boxer's spar all the time and consider it a drill. They never go as hard sparring as they do in the actual ring of a match. Never. Otherwise its a match. They are training for a very specific type of match though and the sparring they do is designed to emulate that match as close as possible.

No of any boxers that do well without sparring? No? Didn't think so...

So sparring is trying to emulate our match as close as possible then. So we are going to encounter an opponent who understands our fighting system, lines up in front of us, the ref says begin? Nope.

So... you restrict your sparring based on the stylistic ideals of your system. I can see why you think it is worthless. Not everyone spars like you though.

Sparring? Yeah it helps, but unless you train with resisting opponent's as close to the venue "match" that you will see you are hurting yourself more then you are helping yourself.

So do it.

This is where I think "Sparring" hinders your ability the most.

So, in your classes, people spontaneuosly attack you full out from behind to see if you can recover and get into the fight?

No?

Ok, so how is sparring hurting something that you aren't training for anyways?

So yes sparring has it purpose. To line you up against a similar knowledge of players, doing similar techniques in a controlled environment trying to relpicate a match that you will only see in competitoin or in the gym/dojo. Dont get me wrong the resisting opponent is flat out awesome, what exactley are you or they resisting against though?

Again, not everyone restricts there sparring as much as you do. Maybe it's time to go play with people from other playgrounds under less rules?



If you don't like sparring, fine. Don't do it.

But without sparring you are not a fighter, period, end of discussion. You will not likely ever beat anyone who is.

Also training cause you believe bad people will sneak attack you from behind if you aren't prepared is bordering paranoia...

Different people do martial arts for different reasons, they get different things out of it. But regardless of what you are doing, you don't have everything. If you are not doing some form of hard, realistic sparring you are not a fighter. You might be getting something out of what you are doing, but you are not getting the fighting aspect to much extent. Accept it, focus on what you are getting, and don't make silly excuses saying practice fighting hurts your ability to "fight for real."

 

[lonekimono10]

you guys are funny

 

[Doc]

Mr. Chapel (Playing the devils advocate) if that is the case.

How come Mr. Parker had so many "Sparring" techniques and also the Internationals for competition?

LOL... I wrote about 5 minutes worth of stuff trying to explain what I felt and why? It all sounded so argumentative and that is the furthest thing I wanted. So I'll just let my question stand alone and maybe you could run with it for awhile.

How you doing buddy? Well to understand you really have to look at the popular history of the Martial Arts in America. Much of the roots and popularity of the arts is grounded in the sport aspects because we, as American understand and enjoy the competitive nature of these type activities. Sports at all levels, from child amateurs to adult pros is big business.

Early American martial artist usually learned while in the military, studying for a relatively brief period under Asian Instructors and achieving black belts quickly with limited punch/kick skills and comensurate knowledge. The competitive nature of Americans fit this aspect of study perfectly and instructors gave them what they wanted.

Coming back to the USA they pioneered the competition circuit and thus indoctrinated generations to believe that was what Martial Arts is and was. Much like today when everyone wants to know "Do you teach NHB grappling?" The general public and many practitioners themselves believe this is all there is to the art.

Although certain aspects of "sparring" can be positive, it is important to take note the progenitors of most of the older arts like Ed Parker himself, did not engage in or believe in contest sparring. Most tend to forget that even more modern icons like Bruce Lee also did not believe in or engage in contest sparring for points, prizes, or trophys.

Sparring can introduce the physicality and the dynamics of human interaction on a competitive basis. However by its nature, it also must exclude the majority and finer points of combat, reducing these exercises to exhibitions of blunt force trauma and endurance.

Parker believed that sparring best helped to foster the warrior spirit or mentality in Americans in preparation for combat, but should not be considered to take the place of training for actual confrontation because of its extreme limitations relative to an actual street encounter.

Today that even holds true in the military where they teach "grappling" not as techniques to be used in warfare, but as character assessment exercises and to build a measure of mental tougness. But sparring leaves out 99% of what happens in real combat, and the better you get at that 1%, the more the other 99% is neglected, never learned, or diminishes.

Many, many schools today utilize sparring as their base curriculum, and that is not necessarily a bad thing - as long as you recognize it can be an aspect of the art, and is not necessarily all the art. But the practice of giving belts for sparring ability and contest successes also has systematically watered down many interpretations of the arts. Persons achieving status or rank in this manner inevitably, through no fault of their own, teach and award rank in the same manner thus exacerbating the lack of desimination of more technical knwledge and subsequent street skills. Sparring ranks are just that, belts awarded for competition skill and success. When I ran the Internationals there were a bunch of guys who always lost every year, who you wouldn't want to fight in the parking lot.

Ed Parker created, introduced, and conducted the first and largest competitive tournament in the world. You don't really thing he would discourage sparring do you? It was/is good business not only in competiton venues, but in the martial arts business schools as well.

 

[Sapper6]

outstanding post Doc Chapel. :asian: