Techniques in sparring

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Well, as I said before, I reckon this needs to be split into two distinct camps: grabs and strikes.

Against grabs, someone is making contact with you, and you've got a fixed point of reference to work from. A good kenpoist should be able to turn a guy around and get a nasty arm lock on from loads of different grab positions (they're not hard moves), then either maintain the lock, break an elbow joint, or whatever. In these circumstances, then yes, I could see someone pulling off Gripping Talon, Crossing Talon, Lone Kimono, Conquering Shield, Obscure Wing etc. etc. etc.

Against strikes though, it's just not going to happen, but, this doesn't mean that learning the techs is a waste of time. Pretty much all of them (well, the ones that I know anyway) are against a single strike. We practice them by throwing the punch or kick, then standing there whilst someone finishes the technique off. People aren't going to do this.

Firstly, they're actually going to be aiming a you. I don't know what it's like in other people's schools, but no matter how often I tell people to actually get in range for a strike and aim at the target in our school, they don't. They throw punches that land anything from 10cm-30cm short of target, and often aim to the sides of people's heads for example.


Ian.

Some of this has to do with the web of knowledge and the difficulty of defending against different types of attacks,

I don't practice my self defense techniques the way you mentioned, that is why you should be actively checking or guarding and a good partner should throw the punch at your face if thats the target or follow up after the initial punch, this is all things that are covered within the techniques if you dig long enough. The "just stand there" thing kinda gets to me sometimes if your partner is just standing there you arent working your techniques dynamically, the body has to react to the strikes or you have to think of your opponents available weapons after your defense (think point of origin) you could poke the biggest guy in the eye and more then likely his hand will go up to his face. So no nobody is gonna just stand there while you do a technique, but the answers are there within the technique and most the time counter attacks are covered if you look for them. When me in a buddy used to train together he poked me in the eye once while I was doing attacking mace because my check was below the arm instead of above it.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Well, as I said before, I reckon this needs to be split into two distinct camps: grabs and strikes.

Against grabs, someone is making contact with you, and you've got a fixed point of reference to work from. A good kenpoist should be able to turn a guy around and get a nasty arm lock on from loads of different grab positions (they're not hard moves), then either maintain the lock, break an elbow joint, or whatever. In these circumstances, then yes, I could see someone pulling off Gripping Talon, Crossing Talon, Lone Kimono, Conquering Shield, Obscure Wing etc. etc. etc.

Since when does someone grab you in a sparring match? By then it will get broken up.

[Firstly, they're actually going to be aiming a you. I don't know what it's like in other people's schools, but no matter how often I tell people to actually get in range for a strike and aim at the target in our school, they don't. They throw punches that land anything from 10cm-30cm short of target, and often aim to the sides of people's heads for example.

The trick there is to hit them a time or two. They will be aiming at you any chance they get after that. LOL!

Secondly, it's going to be full speed. Can you properly block sull speed and full power strikes? If you don't know, get someone to put some gloves on and properly try to knock you out, you'll soon find out.

Why would you want to try? that is what bobbing, weaving, and parrying are for.

Thirdly, they're not going to just throw one strike, they're going to try and batter the crap out of you as fast as they can. They're certainly not going to throw a single, step-through right and then just stand there.

What if the person is going to try to knock your head off? They most likely are going to put EVERYTHING they have into one punch and not be thinking about what is going to happen if that punch doesn't work...in that case they won't be planning a follow up.

All these things conspire against you, and that's why I don't think you've got a hope on hell of pulling off a full or even half a tech in a proper fight.

Not true! I have done it..and heard Several stories of others doing it...usually partial techs though.

The important point is though, you need to turn yourself into a dynamic fighting machine; someone who can use what they've learnt in a fluid and flowing fashion.

The way to do that is train "dynamically" not "statically"!

The techniques as they stand are static, and pre-prescribed. They don't adapt to the opponent.

The techs adapt very well..and flow from one to the next as need be.

And in doing this, you also need to train yourself to think lightening fast, constantly working out where the next strike might be coming from, and where you can land your own strikes, as well as having good situational awareness.

In a "real life" fight if there is no time to think...only to act/react. If you try to think where the next attack is coming from it is too late...you have already been hit!

Having said all that, people keep mentioning sparring and street fighting in the same context, and not making a whole lot of distinction (Jeff's got the right idea...). To me, sparring is a bit of fun you have with your friends in the dojo, no-one's trying to hurt anyone, and it's just a way to improve fitness and practice your blocking, nothing more. If you're training seriously, train for the street, not for the dojo, and make the distinction.

Thanks! I have also seen sparring that is serious and where someone can/has been hurt! I have seen a guy balled up on the floor while the other guy was beating on him while telling him to get up. Just because it was in the dojo, and they had gear on, didn't mean that it wasn't serious. (They were both upper belts and grown men by the way and well responsible for the actions they took). So just because the applications are different, doesn't mean that one is less important, or can be less serious, than the other. :asian:

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Since when does someone grab you in a sparring match? By then it will get broken up.

Wasn't talking about sparring, I was talking about the street, but people do grab in sparring from time to time. Especially if it's part of a sweep or a takedown...

Also, no-one 'breaks up' our sparring, it's continuous. I wouldn't even know how to point spar, I don't even know the rules and I've never done it!

Why would you want to try? that is what bobbing, weaving, and parrying are for.

Good point, 'the best we to avoid being hit is not to be there', as the saying goes. But, in kenpo, a block is a strike and a strike is a block, as you know, so if someone throws a swinginging punch at my head, and a duck it, they don't get hurt, but if I block it with an outwards extended block, and manage hit that nice nerve below the wrist with my wrist bone, then it's gonna really hurt and their arm hopefully won't work as well for a while. Plus, if you mis-judge a bob or a weave, you're going to get hit anyway - there's less margin for error with blocks I think.

Of course, everyone has their own style that suits them best

What if the person is going to try to knock your head off? They most likely are going to put EVERYTHING they have into one punch and not be thinking about what is going to happen if that punch doesn't work...in that case they won't be planning a follow up.

Another good point, I guess it depends how sober/experienced they are doesn't it? That's where learning to read body language and posturing is important I guess, I'd certainly rather deal with someone taking this approach than deal with someone acting like an animal anyday.

Not true! I have done it..and heard Several stories of others doing it...usually partial techs though.

Cool! Maybe I worded myself wrong, I wasn't implying you could never do this, more that you shouldn't expect to do it, if you see what I mean...

The techs adapt very well..and flow from one to the next as need be.

Not in my experience, but people train in lots of different ways. A lot of them seem to break down very quickly once you enter the 'what-if?' stage, and once you start down that road, you more or less end up making stuff up on the spot anyway, which is what I was talking about before.

Thanks! I have also seen sparring that is serious and where someone can/has been hurt! I have seen a guy balled up on the floor while the other guy was beating on him while telling him to get up. Just because it was in the dojo, and they had gear on, didn't mean that it wasn't serious. (They were both upper belts and grown men by the way and well responsible for the actions they took). So just because the applications are different, doesn't mean that one is less important, or can be less serious, than the other. :asian:

I think people's attitudes towards sparring vary from club to club (and style to style), certainly down our way it's a bit of fun, but I'm sure other people are more serious. Our club is very relaxed and friendly in general though, so I think it just filters through to the sparring. Certainly we'd never be kicking anyone on the floor.

Ian.

 

[pineapple head]

Pesonally i like being hit ( In a sadistic kinda way!).
I think i will get my training partner to really go for me with his fists only.
What do you think?

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by pineapple head
Pesonally i like being hit ( In a sadistic kinda way!).
I think i will get my training partner to really go for me with his fists only.
What do you think?

If you both agree, then it's fine! Sometimes when higher belts spar at our club, we'll say 'OK, step it up a bit!', and go in a little harder and faster than normal, which is fine. What you don't want is someone to do this without asking you first, so you end up witha psycho on your hands!

A few times people have come to our club from other clubs and done this, and haven't listened when we've told them to watch their control and be calmer with the lower belts. Without fail they just end up getting a kicking back eventually, and then find out that they're actually out-matched, and leave.

Just cos we don't choose to beat the crap out of people, doesn't mean we're not 100% capable

Ian.

 

[Blindside]

I think i will get my training partner to really go for me with his fists only.

Try this, get one of your training partners, give him 10-12 ounce gloves, and tell him to attempt to knock you out. Put twenty bucks on the table, and let him know that is the prize money. If he is a good training partner he will turn down the money, but ask if he can KO you twice. At least that is what people in my school would say.

Now you have to pull off your defense. Good luck.

Lamont

 

[Kirk]

Taken from: http://www.arnis.org/kenpo/familysample.htm

When it comes to reality in combat an over-whelming majority of Kenpo schools fail miserably. Why, it’s because they are unable to use the very techniques they train for. Just look at a typical class. After a brief warm-up, new techniques are learned. Techniques are then practiced with a partner, the "dummy." But what happens when it’s time to free-spar? Not one technique is seen! Mostly, you see only a lot of dancing with a backfist and a roundhouse thrown in. If you’re lucky, you might even see a side kick! If this happens in training, imagine what will happen if your life is threatened.

So how do we solve this dilemma? Should we throw all but a few techniques out? Should we re-organize the Kenpo system? There’s no need! Kenpo has always had the answer, Family Groups. Family Groups gives us a means of "reducing" the number of techniques from 156 down to 18 (one for each typical attack). Since there is only one choice per attack, our mind is free from decisions and a decrease in reaction time results.

But, unfortunately, the majority of Kenpo schools do not teach or have not been taught Family Groups. As a result, they will fail in combat situations. In short, they are no more than highly skilled, highly ranked victims.

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Kirk
Taken from: http://www.arnis.org/kenpo/familysample.htm

I have to disagree with this stuff. The point of learning many techs is the same as having a toolbox full of tools. Sure you may not have to use all of them on a job but they are still there none the less. And to say that you could not use techs in real life situations is ridiculous. Isn't this what seperates Martial Artists from the rest of the population? Don't forget about body response to strikes. I know for a fact that if I hit someone with a solid hard strike to the solar plexus or stomach that they are going to bend over. How do I know? Because I have done it and seen it done. Now if you're good enough you should be able to fly through your toolbox and pull out any tool you need for the job and to finish the job. If you can't you need to train harder.

As for sparring and using techs. I look at sparring as a means to get timing down, to defend myself against strikes by using parries, blocks, etc.., to learn distance, accuracy, speed, and depth perception, and to learn more about the bodies reaction to certain strikes. There is no way to compare sparring and a real life situation except for the aspects just mentioned. The reason, in sparring I am not fearful of my life so I am not going to throw Tiger Claws to my opponents face and other strikes that will seriously maim or kill. Like I said it's just a way to train yourself more for timing, speed, and defending strikes rather than using your Martial Art.

Respectfully :asian:

P.S. I do not know Kenpo I study Chinese Kempo and am using the techs that I have learned as a basis rather than Kenpo which I know nothing about except for what I have read. Later

 

[idukes]

In my school, one of the most popular techniques we incorporate into sparring is Raining Claw. Not as a defense against an uppercut, but as an attack on the opponent's extended lead hand. Knock it down with your right, check it further with your left as your right circles back around for a back-knuckle to his now-exposed face. (Describing a right-to-right lead situation here.) Shuffling in as you do this helps, and can allow you to check his lead leg with your own at the same time.

At least that's how it's supposed to work. Even "sparring techniques" are hard to pull off cleanly when you're actually sparring. In my limited experience, anyway.

-idukes

 

[Ender]

Well I think you can do some parts of techniques in sparring. Just to get the feel and rhythymn for them. but obviously you can't chop to the throat or put an elbow to the head. So sparrin is only a part of the training. to acclimate yourself to speed and unpredictability.

what we do is run a technique line and the attacker can do anything he wants. the "victim" must use the appropropriate response. I find myself mixing techniques when I do this because sometimes the response warrants a change in attack because of positioning or opponent reaction. *shrugs.....jmo.

 

[shoshiman]

Hi All,

My instructor used Street Sparring drills instead of using sparring (tournament sparring anyway - you know, the tippy tappy kind) to help us realize how good/bad our reactions are and how well/badly we have learned our techniques. Here's how it goes:

1> Gear - Full Face guard, Body padding like the ones used in TKD, Kenpo Gloves, Elbow pads, Shin Pads, Foot Pads. Groin Cup of course.
2> Go - 2 minutes, 3 Rounds. Let's see what you can do.
3> Lastly, no limb breaking techniques please. Respect your schoolmate's training.

Simple as that. Let's put it this way. When my instructor stepped on the mat as MY opponent, I have never been so afraid for my life ever. I still have nightmares to this day.
That was 5 years ago!!!

Peace and Respect :asian:

Shoshiman