sparring

[Andrew Green]

Although certain aspects of "sparring" can be positive, it is important to take note the progenitors of most of the older arts like Ed Parker himself, did not engage in or believe in contest sparring. Most tend to forget that even more modern icons like Bruce Lee also did not believe in or engage in contest sparring for points, prizes, or trophys.

There is something there that I agree with (I think)

and that is that if someone only focuses on the competition they get tunnel vision and thats when things can go bad.

When people start basing there strategies and methods around a specific set of rules, and to take advantage of those rules. An example would be point sparring, and guys hopping around on one foot throwing head kick after head kick. They are taking advantage of the rule that says the other guy can't slam them, kick there supporting leg out and if they fall down the ref will stop the fight until they are back up and ready to go. Kicks don't have to hurt to score, in fact they don't even have to hit hard, they just got to hit (or stop short of hitting)

Sparring like that, for that, is of little value when training for anything but that.

 

[BallistikMike]

But without sparring you are not a fighter, period, end of discussion. You will not likely ever beat anyone who is.

Also training cause you believe bad people will sneak attack you from behind if you aren't prepared is bordering paranoia...

Different people do martial arts for different reasons, they get different things out of it. But regardless of what you are doing, you don't have everything. If you are not doing some form of hard, realistic sparring you are not a fighter. You might be getting something out of what you are doing, but you are not getting the fighting aspect to much extent. Accept it, focus on what you are getting, and don't make silly excuses saying practice fighting hurts your ability to "fight for real."

Its an amazing thing how you can judge what type of "fighter" I am.

I will never be a fighter. I will never claim to be a fighter. I never have claimed to be a fighter. Fighting is ... well... sporting.

I am also amazed that you honestly believe that I wrote about a sneak attack. I wrote about being ambushed and training from the "Negative" position of being in a bad situation. Ambushes happen every single night across this nation. Pick a bar, bet we could find it happening a few times a year in any bar you pick.

You missed the entire post. Never stated we didn't spar, never said we didn't roll, Im sorry that you missed that and felt attacked or threatened or needed to think you did so you could write what you did.

What Im very sorry about is that you think "sparring" hard is self-defense training. Self-Defensing (LOL) hard is self-defense training. You are still thinking of hitting hard, rolling hard, submissions and sporting footwork is judge and jury for self-defense. Its a tool, a drill and one that I feel takes away more then it adds.

Because we didnt square off and get the word from the ref to "get it on" doesnt mean we do not LOL "get it on".

and...yes...lol...we do surprise each other by turning the lights off, thorwing plastic garbage cans in the middle of the floor, blind tackles when you walk right in the school, 3rd or 4th person interupting a drill and attacking during it, its called chaos training. You should try it sometime instead of squaring off and sparring hard one on one, under controlled circumstances with a ref willing to stop it the moment you get knocked too hard. We evolved beyond that years ago after we got our clock rung by yes MMA's and incorporated into our self-defense training.

Chaos is where I really wanted to take it. Sparring does embrace this a bit, sparring hard even more, all in sparring even more, then negative position all in sparring even more, then negative all in sparring and you get "hit men" thrown at you (multiple bad guys), oh wait change sparring for self-defense and then you have what we do more of. More then "sparring" that is.

and...to the bold underline that I highlighted in your post I completely agree. Focus what you are getting out of it, also you should expand you horizons and not judge what others do because they dont do what you do.

Good luck to you. Hands up, chin down

 

[Doc]

There is something there that I agree with (I think)

and that is that if someone only focuses on the competition they get tunnel vision and thats when things can go bad.

When people start basing there strategies and methods around a specific set of rules, and to take advantage of those rules. An example would be point sparring, and guys hopping around on one foot throwing head kick after head kick. They are taking advantage of the rule that says the other guy can't slam them, kick there supporting leg out and if they fall down the ref will stop the fight until they are back up and ready to go. Kicks don't have to hurt to score, in fact they don't even have to hit hard, they just got to hit (or stop short of hitting)

Sparring like that, for that, is of little value when training for anything but that.

On that sir, I wholeheartedly agree. But then again as you know, there is "sparring" and there is "sparring type training." Our group "spars" to work specific skills and effectiveness. We work on all manner of reality sparring drills that are as real as we can get them. I like your example of a person coming from behind full bore for a bearhug attack. That's a tough one for most, but not hard when you understand the mechanics envolved. It just mandates realistic reps. Students have to survive it at our first level to move to other areas of training.

One of the best things about sparring of all types is "adrenal" thus hardening "soft" muscle memory and senaptic pathways. The problem with contest sparring is the hardening in much of what you do, of the wrong pathways. Call it "bad habits" if you will under adrenal stress syndrome. When pressed you tend to go back to those well trained and familiar pathways or muscle memory. Not always a bad thing, but also not necessarily a good thing either when your attacker is in "combat mode" and you're in a "sparring mode."

A large percentage of my students are law enforcement agents and uniformed street officers. I've never had a field failure of any aspect of our curriculum yet, and they all swear by the training. I'll take that as a "reality endorsement" considering they have more confrontations in a week than most have in a lifetime.

Good thoughts Mr. Green.

 

[Doc]

Its an amazing thing how you can judge what type of "fighter" I am.

I will never be a fighter. I will never claim to be a fighter. I never have claimed to be a fighter. Fighting is ... well... sporting.

I am also amazed that you honestly believe that I wrote about a sneak attack. I wrote about being ambushed and training from the "Negative" position of being in a bad situation. Ambushes happen every single night across this nation. Pick a bar, bet we could find it happening a few times a year in any bar you pick.

You missed the entire post. Never stated we didn't spar, never said we didn't roll, Im sorry that you missed that and felt attacked or threatened or needed to think you did so you could write what you did.

What Im very sorry about is that you think "sparring" hard is self-defense training. Self-Defensing (LOL) hard is self-defense training. You are still thinking of hitting hard, rolling hard, submissions and sporting footwork is judge and jury for self-defense. Its a tool, a drill and one that I feel takes away more then it adds.

Because we didnt square off and get the word from the ref to "get it on" doesnt mean we do not LOL "get it on".

and...yes...lol...we do surprise each other by turning the lights off, thorwing plastic garbage cans in the middle of the floor, blind tackles when you walk right in the school, 3rd or 4th person interupting a drill and attacking during it, its called chaos training. You should try it sometime instead of squaring off and sparring hard one on one, under controlled circumstances with a ref willing to stop it the moment you get knocked too hard. We evolved beyond that years ago after we got our clock rung by yes MMA's and incorporated into our self-defense training.

Chaos is where I really wanted to take it. Sparring does embrace this a bit, sparring hard even more, all in sparring even more, then negative position all in sparring even more, then negative all in sparring and you get "hit men" thrown at you (multiple bad guys), oh wait change sparring for self-defense and then you have what we do more of. More then "sparring" that is.

and...to the bold underline that I highlighted in your post I completely agree. Focus what you are getting out of it, also you should expand you horizons and not judge what others do because they dont do what you do.

Good luck to you. Hands up, chin down

Ummmmmmm! Chaos Theory. I like it Mr. Anderson. Follow the white rabbit. You are "The One."

 

[BallistikMike]

Ummmmmmm! Chaos Theory. I like it Mr. Anderson. Follow the white rabbit. You are "The One."

Not really a theory. More like reality.

I like this as an example. "The more you train, the more luck you will create."

or ... "The more you train the less luck you will need."

One thing is for sure... you will need luck when you head is tapped up against the here and now and it becomes go time. How would each and everyone of you like it to come, like a lottery or what you create ?

Back to the sparring.

The Olympics. Every event from the original Olympics was a drill soldiers used training for full combat, full warfare.

The discus throw.
The shot put.
The javaline.
Bow & Arrow.
Marathon.

Everyone of those and many others were drills being done by soldiers. The soldiers were sent to compete at the drills they did best against all the world. EXCEPT the soldiers that were needed to stay back and fight or protect. The warriors.

That is an example of where I am going.

Sparring is nothing but a drill.

Kihon, Kata & Kumite. The traditional way of practicing Karate. Kumite being? Sparring? Fighting? Practical Self-Defense Training? All of the above.

People became very good at sparring.Champions were born. Drills were created to enhace how you did the original drill "Sparring". Soon "Sparring" became the entire system, became the only way to judge how effective a person would be in "real" combat. A drill became the way of judging effective combat.

The same can be said for Kata and for kihon. Forms and basics. It takes ALL THREE.

Flat out when you create drills, to enahce a drill, to become a champion that HURTS self-defense. It is about self-defense right? It isnt about being a fighter, a champion right? If it is then I am completely off base. I apologize.

 

[Doc]

It takes ALL THREE.

Yes it does Mister Anderson. That why I make a distinction between "competitive sparring" and specific activity designed to enhance reality skills.

It is about self-defense right? It isnt about being a fighter, a champion right? If it is then I am completely off base. I apologize.

Exactomundo Mister Anderson. Morbius would be proud.

 

[BallistikMike]

Yes it does Mister Anderson. That why I make a distinction between "competitive sparring" and specific activity designed to enhance reality skills.

Exactomundo Mister Anderson. Morbius would be proud.

Now if only I could stop bullets by just thinking it... now thats self-defense.

 

[Doc]

Now if only I could stop bullets by just thinking it... now thats self-defense.

Sorry, you must get in that already long line.

 

[kenpoworks]

I have had a quick squint at "Ballistikmike's" post and I agree with a lot (most) of what he is saying about "stylized" competition fighting.
Sparring does improve some "stuff" but it can lead to a false sense of ability even a dangerously inflated idea of ones own ability.It may even lead to restrictive traits which will stop a person from taking action based on their initiative or natural instincts.
Years ago after class a few of us used to stay on and do 20 to 30mins of "Milling", a British Army fighting excercise, it is a great leveller as well as an eye opener (or sometimes closer), it built endurance, stamina,fortitude, resillience heightened awareness and basically shook out all the restictive practices of a scheduled class, it used to kinda balance things out. These days after class I have to cut and run.
Richie.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Sparring is nothing but a drill...

...Flat out when you create drills, to enahce a drill, to become a champion that HURTS self-defense.

Mr. Mike and Doc: I must, to some extent, respectfully disagree.

The kenpo community at large is already full of guys who have great forms, extensive vocabularies, but don't spar, and therefore have never put their kenpo in motion against resistance. Note: That is NOT to say that all kenpoists that spar can fight, or that all who don't cannot.

It IS to say that the experience in gauging depth, timing, etc., that one gains from sparring cannot truly be gained in any other arena than to trade blows with someone who is trying to spin your melon during a 2-hour sparring class. Will it reinforce bad habits? Surely...but I have seen many kenpoistas with bad habits anyways, who don't spar, and consequently lack the practical skills around keeping their hands up and responding to blitzes.

I've seen guys from schools with spot-on form and lots of fancy EPAK words; pop them in the nuts with a sneaky lead-leg roundhouse, and thier supreme technical prowess drops just in time to check off their lead hand and clang them in the head with a solid rear hand/sweep/downward punch combination. Press the blitz, and you can see otherwise skilled practitioners fold under the pressure of an ongoing attack. Does it mean, all at once, that kenpo doesn't work? Of course not. What it does mean is that this particular practitioner lacks the mental wherewithall to apply their kenpo to resisting an ongoing attack. (Oops...I didn't throw the punch, then freeze in time to let them finish thier self-defense techniques).

Now, Doc and I have gone over this before. He has some very cool training models that provide depth response training and reactive patterning without having to glove up and bang around. Having said that, there's, like, 6 to 12 guys that show up on a regular basis, out of how many millions of kenpo practitioners worldwide?

Out of a deep desire not to get tooled the next time I show up at Docs, I'll grant that his guys have reached a level of coordination and responsiveness that negates a NEED for sparring. Now, just to play devils advocate, what if we took his small clan of technically profound kenpoists, and had them spar, paying attention to not violating the sound anatomical principles of SL-4? Are there lessons under the mits that they haven't gleaned yet, because they haven't gone there?

Who knows for sure. I, personally, believe that the only way to learn to swim is to jump in the water and get wet. And while continuous sparring may not be a perfect model for practicing perfect kenpo perfectly, it is the closest we can get thus far to getting knocked around; learning how NOT to get knocked around; all while managing to knock the other guy around...who, coincidently, is also trying to accomplish the same thing.

Sparring hurts self-defense? I'm not on board for that one. I'm thinking that sparring helps defense for MOST of the people, MOST of the time, becaue it's the only training modality that provides live karate-in-motion-with-follow-through training, without risks of much more serious injury.

Will stances suffer? Heck yeah. Most folks (myself included) have crappy stancework anyway. Why not at least be able to throw down on someone while they are thrownig down on you? Will clean blocks that injure an opponent and misalign him be replaced by less efficient positioned checks? Sure...most of kenpo is already there, mainly because very few in life have the patience to put into developing real skill out of basics, or are learning from instructors who don't posses it themselves.

But to pronounce sparring as the antithesis of defense? A bit much for me. I would rather FIGHT the average kenpoist than the average boxer, because the average kenpoist will not have sufficient command of their basics to hit me hard enough to really injure me. The average boxer, on the other hand, has 3 to 4 good punches he's worked ad nauseum, and has worked out throwing them, hard, while someone else is throwing them at him. He CAN hurt me, and he CAN continue to think on his feet while I hurt him...an ability I think the average kenpoists loses right after they get their melon rung for the first time in a fight. Especially guys who have never sparred.

Finally, fighting takes wind. Mine sucks so bad right now, that just the shouting match leading up to the brawl (if I'm lucky enough to get one) would have me huffing and puffing for air. To date, one of the most intense cardio workouts I've ever had is sparring....pulse rockets from rest to bounding in the first 20 seconds of heated exchange. Parker mentions in one of the II books that, all other things being equal (skill, size, speed, etc.), victory will go to the better-conditioned athlete. Sparrnig is, essentially, wind-sprints with bruising. You bounce for a couple seconds, then burst in offense, defense, or counters, then go back to bouncing. What an awesome aerobic session! And you get the added bonus of some mook trying to shove his glove forcefully into your face, gut, kidneys, or groin! After a couple hundred hours of that, Joe Blow off the street throwing a wild haymaker right is laughable. Yes, form and basics will suck, but his blood on the ground instead of yours can help the guilt around that vanish rather quickly.

Now, if all y'all will excuse me, I have to go stuff a pillow down the back of my gi pants to cushion the whoopin' I got coming.

Best Regards,

Dave

 

[The Kai]

"The discus throw.
The shot put.
The javaline.
Bow & Arrow.
Marathon.

Everyone of those and many others were drills being done by soldiers. The soldiers were sent to compete at the drills they did best against all the world. EXCEPT the soldiers that were needed to stay back and fight or protect. The warriors"

IMHO this is faulty logic, if you are competing in the Discuss Throw how could you also be simultaeously guarding the borders? So those that stayed back could be viewed as "warriors" or simply as guys who were'nt up to the level as the olympians.

Boxing and wrestling two sporting type people who are a lot harder to deal with then the average Kenpoist

 

[Seabrook]

Many people have no idea that sparring can mean something other then the no-contact stop and go point fighting used in open tournaments...

Exactly Andrew.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

I'll answer what I think sparring does for you.

It allows you to have a sporting chance of playing a game to get more points (hits) then the other guy. It is a great confidence booster when you win. Develops great comradeship. Allows for a resisting opponent with varying degrees of resistance.

Is that how you have been fighting (sparring) throughout the years? If so, I can see why you feel that way.

But I'll tell you something. One guy I have taught on several occasions is a world champion full-contact kickboxer. To make a long story short, most of his wins are by knockout. No, not any of that nonsense "no-touch" stuff....but by hitting his opponent so darn hard with his punches and kicks to areas that could potentially do lethal damage.

Is that not the sparring you are used to?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Kenpodoc]

I'd like to postulate that the value or competitive sparring depends upon when it is done in the course of a lifetime of study. I believe that point sparring is a very valuable part of childrens martial arts training. Children learn through play and learning to play a game of martial tag with a developing nervous system may well lay ground work for improved skill as an adult. It is my experience that the children who join sparrring class have better basics in regular technique based class and better understand that they are not just doing a dance class. With the kids I continually try to relate the lessons in the techniques to point sparring. We do an escalating series of sparring involving different rules from simple point sparring, to only combinations score to continuous sparring to multiple opponent sparring with opponents taking turns from the front, to random opponents taking turns from all sides to genuine mass attack. In the process they have a great deal of fun and learn to read opponents actions increasingly well.

Mr. Parker questioned the value of sparring but had probably done quite a bit earlier in his career. In adults point style sparring may have a place early in training but if continued may encourage bad habits. Personally I spar with the teens because I love to watch them improve and learn to whoop me at the sport aspect of the art. I suspect that in adults "sparring" with drills like Doc describes is far more effective but Doc spent enough time with people like Mr. Muhammad that I'm sure he spent a significant period of time sparring. I therefore wonder if sparring even in adults has a value earlier in a career.

Jeff

 

[Seabrook]

Mr. Mike and Doc: I must, to some extent, respectfully disagree.

The kenpo community at large is already full of guys who have great forms, extensive vocabularies, but don't spar, and therefore have never put their kenpo in motion against resistance. Note: That is NOT to say that all kenpoists that spar can fight, or that all who don't cannot.

It IS to say that the experience in gauging depth, timing, etc., that one gains from sparring cannot truly be gained in any other arena than to trade blows with someone who is trying to spin your melon during a 2-hour sparring class.
Dave

Dave,

Couldn't have stated it better. Well put and best of luck in your training.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Is that how you have been fighting (sparring) throughout the years? If so, I can see why you feel that way.

But I'll tell you something. One guy I have taught on several occasions is a world champion full-contact kickboxer. To make a long story short, most of his wins are by knockout. No, not any of that nonsense "no-touch" stuff....but by hitting his opponent so darn hard with his punches and kicks to areas that could potentially do lethal damage.

Is that not the sparring you are used to?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

so lemme guess......thats how you spar?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

"The discus throw.
The shot put.
The javaline.
Bow & Arrow.
Marathon.

Everyone of those and many others were drills being done by soldiers. The soldiers were sent to compete at the drills they did best against all the world. EXCEPT the soldiers that were needed to stay back and fight or protect. The warriors"

IMHO this is faulty logic, if you are competing in the Discuss Throw how could you also be simultaeously guarding the borders? So those that stayed back could be viewed as "warriors" or simply as guys who were'nt up to the level as the olympians.

Boxing and wrestling two sporting type people who are a lot harder to deal with then the average Kenpoist

i hate to be the one that says this.......the average martial artist in any art is just plain average...... its not tough guys learning how to fight better.......they're geeks trying to fight back

 

[The Kai]

Most MA types that do well in street fights are those that spar. Is that because "tougher" more agressive individual are drawn to sparring schools, I don't know. There is of course more to the arts then sparring-but it is a part of your devolpement. If I were to state the opinion that "Basic suck, we don't really practice them" people would (rightfully) point out that a large part of my vocabulary is missing. It is no different with sparring

 

[BlackCatBonz]

todd......i think that my issue is with the type of sparring.
like i said before....i mostly practice for self defense, so my experience with the "streetfighter" type of martial artists have been quick and painless.

 

[The Kai]

You have been fortunate to face some one who throws exagerrated punchs, wihout any recoil. When I was young(er) I was unlucky enough to face off across a pool table with a ex golden gloves boxer. Fortunatly the scars in his eyebrows was a clue, and his skills were probably rusty. But it was a hard lesson in expecting a punch or jab to remain extended! And in the big body motions commonly seen in SD training, not there