sparring

[Troy Ostapiw/Canada]

Ninjutsu is about survival/winning the engagement. The concepts relate to combat psychology and tactics. We do not need to fight our way physically out of ever situation.

It would be best to collect intelligence and expose your opponents weakness. Don't fight a boxer in boxing range, don't grapple with a grappler. These are good solid strategies.

By beccomming competent in the 9 schools or Ryu, offered in Nin-po-Tai-jutsu, we develop not only physical skills, but learn stealth and avoidance of interpersonal-aggression.

In the martial arts we need to check our ego's at the door, as there are many egotistical people with in the Martial arts community. If your perspective is ego based, you will not be able to see the value other systems have to offer, there is also a good chance someone will hurt you!

When I studying Ninpo in 1994, we would fight kumite (full contact) We would apply the lethal concepts like , grabbing the groing, or throat, but not full speed it was gradual and safe. We would start standing and then fight. Everything in between was full out. There were some injuries, but for the most part it was fairly safe as we had a good group of individuals.

role play is also important to prepare a person for real life encounters, it is mental preparation for reality, you simply need to be able to take a hit, role with the punches, and adapted to the person or situation in front of you.
Many Ninjutsu practioners I know cross train, and implement concepts that allow a person to become more proficient. I currently also train in BJJ/JKD/Modern Arnis/Kickboxing and others.

I see the arts as a way to develop a better understanding of combative movement, avoidance of conflict, and the ablity to keep my self and others safe.

Troy

 

[iwingchun]

Some videos with sparring!!
http://www.wing-chun.ws/index.php?o...w=article&id=198-in-pairs-sparring-&Itemid=58

 

[Kreth]

Some videos with sparring!!
http://www.wing-chun.ws/index.php?o...w=article&id=198-in-pairs-sparring-&Itemid=58

This has absolutely nothing to do with ninjutsu.

 

[Bodhisattva]

I did ninpo ninjitsu for three years and left somewhat dis illusioned with the art.I think the art is beautiful and has the capacity to be great but for one thing, sparring. We never tested our grappling skills in randori such as in judo, or our striking skills in free sparring. I understand that some of the techniques are to dangerous to be performed but a good solid randori and ground session would be envaluable tool for teaching students about real combat and how exhausting it can be. It would also improve students fitness and their capacity to deal with combat.

I`m sure when ninjitsu was practised in the past it used to be on a sparring basis and has been watered down for western consumption, it is a great shame as i love the culture that goes with ninjitsu something that in my training (vale tudo) is not present.

Vale Tudo for combat training ! Congratulations - you chose well.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Actually the whole point that I was making is that you cannot expect yourself to be good on the ground without training on the ground, and I argue that no ammount of ground training is complete without randori of some form...but of course that is simply my opinion =)

that's not an opinion - that's a fact.

 

[Tez3]

This has absolutely nothing to do with ninjutsu.

And three years late lol!

 

[bljohnson]

If you were not training in randori do not blame the art blame the dojo. My students do randori against alot of different scenarios that includes standing and ground fighting. When I test someone for a dan level the biggest part of the test is the randori. The student gets in a circle and I say go and they don't stop until I think they are out of gas. If it goes to the ground then they have to escape and get up. They have to repeat this with a second randori session against common weapons like knives and sticks. Not all Bujinkan schools do this but each place is a little different.

 

[Haikuguy]

Randori is a very important part of the training in Akban, where I trained.
We had one rule only- stay friends at the end of the fight.

Usually the sparring were round- which means it's all from striking through throws and ground work.
To sparr for many years in a somewhat realistic way and yet to avoid injuries takes professional guidance and a healthy attitude.

Not so common commodities I'm afraid.


Personally, and that's the approach in AKBAN as well, I don't believe in learning a martial art without sparring.
We have black belts sparring with beginners all the time- it's the perfect way to learn, and to be safe.
Most injuries were when beginners sparred - they were not aware of their own strength and lacked the sensitivity and experience.

That veterans' experience and sensitivity allowed me to learn when I started while not being so afraid that I might get injured- again, a healthy and rare balance.

 

[Indagator]

In my dojo our entire approach avoids a "sparring" mentality, and rather focuses on ending situations as quickly as possible. Sparring has a tendency to degrade into a tit for tat drawn out game.

My previous background was in Muay Thai and certain other sport arts, so I can also personally testify to having experienced this as being truth!

 

[Chris Parker]

Randori is a very important part of the training in Akban, where I trained.
We had one rule only- stay friends at the end of the fight.

Usually the sparring were round- which means it's all from striking through throws and ground work.
To sparr for many years in a somewhat realistic way and yet to avoid injuries takes professional guidance and a healthy attitude.

Not so common commodities I'm afraid.


Personally, and that's the approach in AKBAN as well, I don't believe in learning a martial art without sparring.
We have black belts sparring with beginners all the time- it's the perfect way to learn, and to be safe.
Most injuries were when beginners sparred - they were not aware of their own strength and lacked the sensitivity and experience.

That veterans' experience and sensitivity allowed me to learn when I started while not being so afraid that I might get injured- again, a healthy and rare balance.

To be honest, I'm really not a fan of sparring in our arts as well. The main reason is that it encourages tactics, strategies, and habits that have nothing to do with the system itself, so actually slows your progression in learning the art. If you just want to learn to fight, maybe (although even then I have issues with the context), but to learn the art? Nope, it's just a bad idea. And, frankly, the Akban organisation is one of the places I see suffer from this the most.

Take this video for example:

Now, what I'd like to focus on isn't Yossi himself, but the groups of students behind him. They are all sparring, but not one of them is doing anything like what is found in the systems that are taught. There is a lot of bouncing, there are a lot of Western Hands actions, the postures are more kickboxing/TKD/boxing influenced, the kicks are from none of the Ryu whatsoever (I've actually been banned from commenting on Akban videos on youtube after I was pointing out that their version of Itsutsu no Tachi from Katori Shinto Ryu was terribly done, missing sections, showed no understanding of the methods and kata, and so on, so when I went to comment on their video of "how to use a Ninjutsu Crescent Kick in sparring", asking where the kick came from in the Ninjutsu traditions [it doesn't], it couldn't go through. Hmm), and more. What I find fascinating is that the techniques being drilled (in this case Oni Kudaki, in many other videos, classical kata from the various Ryu) might be described as "how to use in sparring", but when the sparring is shown, nothing even remotely resembling that is seen. So what is happening is that completely different ideas, techniques, methods, mechanics, skills, distancing, timing, targeting, and more are being pressure tested, rather than what is actually taught.

So, if you want to learn this art, and get good at it, sparring isn't the way to do so.

Thought it was worth noting that though a shinai is a relativley new invention, the boken has been used for hundreds of years for "safe" sparring.

Okay, this is a really old quote (hey, the threads from 2005, another one of bljohnson's necro's....), but this is so far wrong that I'm a little shocked no-one picked it up in the first place! Shinai, including Fukuro Shinai, have been used by a number of systems from at least the early 17th Century. Okay, feel better now.

 

[Haikuguy]

Hi Chris

In Akban we practice Katas almost every class, but we try to keep a dialogue going between the ancient Katas and modern implementations.

Here's a good example of my instructor Yossi talking about Bobi no kamae
[video=youtube_share;jyjYSB-e0BQ]http://youtu.be/jyjYSB-e0BQ[/video]
The classic ninjutsu which means using any method to end the fight (going for the eyes, groin, pressure points, any object that's handy becomes a weapon, etc) is very hard to practice in a safe environment even though it happens in Akban too (mainly with the veterans- it takes a lot of experience to do it safely)


And you know what, you hit a good point there "What I find fascinating is that the techniques being drilled (in this case Oni Kudaki, in many other videos, classical kata from the various Ryu) might be described as "how to use in sparring", but when the sparring is shown, nothing even remotely resembling that is seen"- the trick is, again, how to implement this drill safely in a sparring situation- where the opponent is not moving according to the "plan".

I think this is where magic happens- when you see how very ancient techniques can be implemented in modern day situations.
(for example Jumonji no kamea can be interpreted as just standing casually with hands crossed on your chest in a very natural position, like a bouncer maybe).


In any case, we believe that randori is an integral part of training and the Akban's practice.

More about randori in akban
http://www.akban.org/wiki/index.php/Randori

 

[Chris Parker]

To be honest, that just showed more of the same issues. What Yossi showed in the first place (not actually the Moto Gata for Bobi no Kamae, for the record, that involves Yoko Aruki, not angling off to the side, and a different deflective action, amongst other things) was what I would call semi-traditional (the kamae was good, the fudo ken were correct, but the footwork and movement don't match any Ryu methodologies, particularly not Koto Ryu. If anything, it was slightly closer to Kukishinden Ryu, at a higher level). The rest, however, was nothing to do with anything involved in the Ninjutsu traditions at all. The body movement was from boxing, as were the hands and the footwork, the kicks were from karate/kickboxing, and the posture (again more of a boxing one) showed none of the traits of Bobi itself.

When it comes to my comment about what is seen in the sparring being completely removed from the martial art being taught itself, that's further shown in the video on the Akban wiki page you linked as well, with the beginning showing kata (I saw some Koto Ryu, some Gyokko Ryu, what could have been Koto or Shinden Fudo, the kata is very similar) and traditional drilling, particularly of nage waza, using X-kan/Takamatsuden movement, kamae, methods, footwork, and so on. Then, the sparring footage basically turned into kickboxing with grabs. In other words, nothing like what was being drilled first. The power source was completely different, the postural concepts were completely different, the weapons (strikes, kicks etc) were completely different, the movement was completely different, the timing was completely different, the angling was completely different, the distancing was completely different, and so on. Really, it was like watching two completely different martial arts training clips... because it really was.

And, to clarify, the classical Ninjutsu method isn't to "use any method to end the fight", it's to apply the strategies, tactics, lessons, and movement as expressed within the art. Which is shown in a decent way in your kata performance, but is completely missing in the sparring clips.

Now, there are ways to train what is taught in a free-form way, but sparring (in this form) tends to make everything into a generic kickboxing mix, which, to my mind, really defeats the purpose of training in a particular art in the first place, if you are training that, once a random element is brought in, it all gets thrown out the window in favour of something completely different. Oh, and, while popular as a thought, I'd argue against the idea of standing on the wall with your arms crossed being a form of Jumonji, because it's completely missing the strategy that Jumonji represents.

But, all in all, this is really just more confirmation that sparring doesn't work for these arts, as you need to drop what the art teaches, even in regard to posture and footwork, just to start sparring in the first place with it. I recognise that sparring is a big part of the Akban approach, and I'm not saying that sparring itself is necessarily a bad thing, but if it means that you're testing things that aren't in what you're training in the first place, I'd question it's validity, usage, and purpose in what you're doing.

 

[Haikuguy]

Hi Chris

Different systems teach differently and that's a good thing.

Maybe because most of the Akban practitioners have military backgrounds (myself included) we prefer the "down to earth" approach.
I think again, the main reason is our attempt not to remove Ninjutsu totally from everyday life but to incorporate it, and one of the ways we do it is through realistic (yet safe- sometimes an oxymoron) randori.

When I trained with Akban in Israel we sparred in the Desert Gatherings with fully loaded backpacks (which demonstrates a lot of the Kamaes' logic) and on un-even ground (which demonstrated a lot of the tai sabaki's logic).

I also remember when I just started training there, more than 10 years ago, we even had one class where we all sparred in the bathrooms of the dojo (about 35 people in a very confined space...), haha...
Anyway, those sessions teach us a lot about fighting, sensitivity (in the sense of "sensing", not in the sense of crying while watching "Titanic"...), and about ourselves.

We find it useful and essential, and just imagine a tsuki actually working in sparring...such beauty.


But if sparring doesn't work for you, don't spar!
I think that a differences of interpretations and of schools of thought is a good thing.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Chris

Hi Oded (great to know your name, by the way! Thanks for that!)

Different systems teach differently and that's a good thing.

Absolutely agreed. The question might be how much two groups teaching the same art are teaching different systems, though....

Maybe because most of the Akban practitioners have military backgrounds (myself included) we prefer the "down to earth" approach.
I think again, the main reason is our attempt not to remove Ninjutsu totally from everyday life but to incorporate it, and one of the ways we do it is through realistic (yet safe- sometimes an oxymoron) randori.

Realistic randori, scenario training, and the like are all very good, down-to-earth realistic training methods, and can (and should) be done as a method of pressure testing and training the material that the art teaches.... however the sparring clips show a completely different approach to combat and martial arts. There isn't any element of the art that's actually left in the sparring, so it's not a matter of "not remove Ninjutsu totally", it's a matter of whether any is present at all.

Akban have always been known as being solid, serious practitioners with their kata and traditional training, making sure that everything is trained solidly and properly, coming from Doron Navon down. What I don't understand is the solid, serious training in such forms seems to be completely thrown out the window when you get into free-form training (sparring). It honestly doesn't have anything to do with being down to earth, or having a military background, it's a complete negation of the majority of the training for the image of realism.

When I trained with Akban in Israel we sparred in the Desert Gatherings with fully loaded backpacks (which demonstrates a lot of the Kamaes' logic) and on un-even ground (which demonstrated a lot of the tai sabaki's logic).

Sounds interesting, and a very good idea.... but what was being used in the sparring? Was it actually the Ninjutsu methodologies, or was it the same kickboxing-style sparring that are seen in all of the Akban videos? If the former, why isn't that used in the rest of the sparring? And if the latter, how does that show anything about the kamae or tai sabaki when it isn't present at all?

I also remember when I just started training there, more than 10 years ago, we even had one class where we all sparred in the bathrooms of the dojo (about 35 people in a very confined space...), haha...
Anyway, those sessions teach us a lot about fighting, sensitivity (in the sense of "sensing", not in the sense of crying while watching "Titanic"...), and about ourselves.

We find it useful and essential, and just imagine a tsuki actually working in sparring...such beauty.

(Ha, love the Titanic line....) Again, what was the form of sparring used?

But if sparring doesn't work for you, don't spar!
I think that a differences of interpretations and of schools of thought is a good thing.

Sparring is a great way to test what you're doing, but it needs to be in the context of the art itself. What I see in the Akban videos is not in the context of the Ninjutsu traditions.... in fact, it was completely opposite to it.

 

[Haikuguy]

Sparring is so ingrained within the Akban's DNA that I'm having trouble imagining training without it...


Chris, if you have a minute, read what my teacher Yossi wrote long ago about the "Methodical Pyramid"- there he explains how sparring is so essential to our practice.


I think what you're saying is that you want to see "Ninjutsu punches" and "Ninjutsu kicks" if we bother to sparr, correct?
Well, it's the right place to state, then, that in Akban we are big believers in Convergent evolution in martial arts.
(which is natural when you have all over the world people with two hands and two legs fighting within the same constraints of gravity...)

Or, like I like to say "When a tribesman in Africa kicks another tribesman in the balls, he's not thinking "oh I might just do a Kinteki Sokushi geri on this guy!"...

Oh, and by the way, if you don't like the sparring we do, you'd HATE our 24 hour sparring!

 

[Aiki Lee]

Hi Oded, I'm Lee, and welcome to Martialtalk!

I think the idea of pressure testing randori is good, but when I think of "sparring" I think of an aimless game of a back and forth tag. Sparring to me lacks the urgency that a self-defense or combat situation would realistically have. In pressure testing, there is still the idea of an attacker and defender or sometimes two attackers where the winner has not yet been predetermined. There is always a goal of continuous attack in a randori setting. Sparring doesn't have this and so doesn't allow for the correct execution of ninjutsu tactics or strategies. So in actuality I agree with the ideas you have present, it just doesn't look like it is being done properly by the people in the background of the clip Chris posted.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Oded,

Sparring is so ingrained within the Akban's DNA that I'm having trouble imagining training without it...

Oh, I get that, absolutely. What I'm getting at is the reason and benefits (or flaws) in the form that the sparring is taking, as it seems to have little reason for the way it's done, no benefits (as pertains to the art that is being taught), and quite a number of flaws. If the sparring was a way of testing what was being taught, great. If it's not, there's little point in going through it, really.

Tell you what, here's some old footage of Hatsumi, including some sparring using the lessons and methods of the art itself. Compare this form with the way of sparring shown in the Akban clips:

You may even note Doron getting thrown around by his hair... at least Yossi wouldn't have that problem, ha!

Chris, if you have a minute, read what my teacher Yossi wrote long ago about the "Methodical Pyramid"- there he explains how sparring is so essential to our practice.

Actually, that doesn't say anything about why sparring (in the fashion shown) is essential. Sparring is mentioned once only, and not said to be anything other than one aspect of the training earlier in Yossi's development. The closest to that argument is in the last paragraph, which states:

In this atmosphere, there is the need to update and re-adjust traditional techniques to contemporary combat situations. Several instructors have found themselves in inner conflict: on the one hand, they feel the need to preserve the traditional knowledge with which we have been entrusted, and on the other hand, the obligation to accommodate their knowledge to combat situations that have transformed since this knowledge was sealed in Japan. Japan has entered a time of peace and its need to develop warfare has died out. Israeli reality is tough and ever-changing, and peace still seen merely as a hopeful dream.​

And that's part of the issue. I completely agree that, if you're teaching and training a traditional art, and you expect it to be designed for modern conflict, you should take a deeper look at things. However, if you're teaching a particular art, with a particular approach to combat and conflict, it can be "modernised" without grabbing completely incongruent outside methods to fill perceived gaps.

I think what you're saying is that you want to see "Ninjutsu punches" and "Ninjutsu kicks" if we bother to sparr, correct?

Half, really. The reason I'd want to see "ninjutsu punches and kicks" is because the ones being used are not in any way compatible with the actual principles of the art being taught. And it's those principles that I'm actually wanting to see. Otherwise it's like learning to play golf, and testing your ability by playing tennis. It just doesn't make any sense. There really is no reason to have a sparring format that is so alien to every aspect of the actual martial art being taught itself.

Well, it's the right place to state, then, that in Akban we are big believers in Convergent evolution in martial arts.
(which is natural when you have all over the world people with two hands and two legs fighting within the same constraints of gravity...)

The problem is that convergent evolution just doesn't work, or apply in martial arts. At all. If it did, we'd all be training in the same one, and doing things the same way, which is not the reality. Yossi even says as much in the article you linked, talking about changes in different environments and so on. The argument of "two hands, two legs" is firstly flawed, and secondly, negates the actual influences on martial arts development. I mean, the very fact that you have two completely distinct and removed ways of moving (the sparring form and the traditional form) shows that there are huge differences in the structure, methodology, and development of martial arts. Convergent evolution has no part in this.

Or, like I like to say "When a tribesman in Africa kicks another tribesman in the balls, he's not thinking "oh I might just do a Kinteki Sokushi geri on this guy!"...

Nor are you thinking such things when using martial traditions, or other methodology. You simply kick them the way you know (believe) to be powerful, whether based on previous experience, cultural conditioning, martial training, or watching movies. Ideally, if you are trained, you will respond (kick) with the way the training has taught you to kick, using the kicking surface taught, the power source taught, and so on. If you have trained more than one way (meaning from two or more different sources with different ideas of power source and so forth, rather than just different forms of, say, front kicks from the one art, which would all have the same concepts, power source, angling, etc), then you would pick the one that you (unconsciously) feel is the most powerful. And that means that whatever else you've trained will be largely wasted effort. If you've trained one method as a sparring form, and you feel good at it, that might be given preference in your values, which means there's little point in you having trained the traditional side of things. If you don't feel that the sparring is something you're good at, you may go more to the traditional... but, then again, if you haven't tested it in sparring, but have tested other things, you just may feel that you have nothing powerful enough to actually rely on... which would make all the training rather wasted effort.

That's the biggest issue, really. It's not that sparring (testing in a random, free-form way) is a bad thing, it's that it would need to reinforce the other training, not contradict it. By contradicting it, you're just telling yourself that what you're training in isn't powerful, and can't be relied on. Training, to get the most out of it, and have the greatest chance of success, needs to be congruent. And that is not present in the Akban forms of sparring.

Oh, and by the way, if you don't like the sparring we do, you'd HATE our 24 hour sparring!

Nah, that looks like fun. It's not really 24 hour sparring, it's 24 hour training, which includes some sparring, from the video provided there.

 

[Haikuguy]

Hi Lee! Thanks!

Sparring doesn't have this and so doesn't allow for the correct execution of ninjutsu tactics or strategies. So in actuality I agree with the ideas you have present, it just doesn't look like it is being done properly by the people in the background of the clip Chris posted.

The correct execution of ninjutsu tactics and strategies will result in injuries or death. That's what it's meant for.
Before I came to Akban (late 90'), they were sparring quite hard, and many students and veterans were injured regularly.
From what I understand, Yossi understood that instead of making the students tough and hard from doing "realistic randori", they got fat and chubby from sitting on the couch eating potato chips in front of the TV while recovering from their injuries...
So the intensity was lowered.

As someone who comes from a military background and working in security in ridiculously dangerous places in Israel I can say that very few things can prepare you for a life threatening situation, but one of those few things is getting as close as you can to realistic sparring without injuring yourself or others.
I have never had security training without sparring in some way- it's like learning to shoot in a classroom and not in the gun range- it just won't work.
And regarding self defence, there is a story about it in one of Yossi's articles here.

And regarding the sparring in the background of the video, I don't really think it represents anything in particular- some veterans are sparring while using the belt of their Gi, or using the walls of the dojo etc, there is a lot you don't see in that video...

Sparring against multiple opponents is done regularly in Akban but you don't see that in this video also....

 

[Haikuguy]

Hi Chris

I LOVE that video and know it well.

You see, I think you and I mainly disagree about the amount of difference between the martial arts, or the fighting techniques.

Hatsumi grabbing Doron by the hair in the video, although it's what I call "classic ninjutsu" is not JUST ninjutsu, you know?
It's grabbing the hair.
People do that all the time, and it make total sense, even without learning ninjutsu.

I remember when first starting in Akban the first few years I got to sparr mainly in ground fighting (Ne waza) for some reason, and then the group I was at moved to round sparring (strikes were allowed as well in the Ne waza) and wow- I was blown away- such a difference between just waiting in the guard for the opponent to make a mistake (Bjj style) and realizing you are being exposed to strikes!

And then, some of the sparring were done as "classical ninjutsu" and I was blown away again!
I thought I had the strikes and Ne Waza under control, and now all of a sudden eye gouging is allowed, groin attacks, small joint manipulation (all with care and compassion of course), and wow, what a difference again!
Now it's not just strikes, if the opponent has his hand on your face during a struggle on the ground, you and him know that he could have just as easily pulled one of your eyes out!



And I loved that. That feeling of sudden vulnerability just opens up the horizons.
Those layers of understanding can only come from sparring, I believe.
You learn something, get good at it, and then realize it's useless in some situations- a wonderful disillusion.

Look at the video, how they sparr in a downhill, we do that too- and (like the iPhone) it changes everything, again!


oh and in the 24 hour sparring (it was sparring- in one of them we had representatives from the guinness book of world records...) , I was there, twice- in the video you can see us perform a kata (I think Jumonji no kata) right at the end of one of the 24 hour sessions - a thousand times.

Haha, it sounds crazy when I write about it like that.
well it WAS crazy.
damn I miss it.


And here are some more thoughts that might interest you on this subject from an Akban veteran.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Lee! Thanks!

Hi Oded,

I know you addressed this part at Lee, but if you don't mind, I'll add some thoughts from my side as well. Thanks.

The correct execution of ninjutsu tactics and strategies will result in injuries or death. That's what it's meant for.
Before I came to Akban (late 90'), they were sparring quite hard, and many students and veterans were injured regularly.
From what I understand, Yossi understood that instead of making the students tough and hard from doing "realistic randori", they got fat and chubby from sitting on the couch eating potato chips in front of the TV while recovering from their injuries...
So the intensity was lowered.

I'll be blunt here and say that the correct execution of the techniques/tactics/methods of the various Ryu-ha taught in Ninjutsu schools don't allow for sparring at all. In fact, a lot of them are designed to avoid any type of lengthened encounter at all. That said, it is possible to do free-form randori with them with a fair degree of safety, so the idea of "it'll result in injury or death" is not accurate. That only happens when the instructor doesn't know how to structure the randori properly, or pushes people into it too early. If the guys were going too hard, and getting hurt? That's the instructor not having control or understanding of what was going on in the sessions. Not that it's "too deadly to spar".

As someone who comes from a military background and working in security in ridiculously dangerous places in Israel I can say that very few things can prepare you for a life threatening situation, but one of those few things is getting as close as you can to realistic sparring without injuring yourself or others.
I have never had security training without sparring in some way- it's like learning to shoot in a classroom and not in the gun range- it just won't work.
And regarding self defence, there is a story about it in one of Yossi's articles here.

Completely agreed with your sentiment here (few things can prepare you for genuinely life-threatening encounters), but I will argue with the idea that "sparring" is the closest you can get. To my mind, scenario training is far closer, as it doesn't have the restrictions that sparring has, and it is designed, specifically, to replicate a real encounter as much as possible. In all the security training we've done, scenario training is always there (after the skills have been drilled seriously), but not sparring. It's just unrealistic.

With the "learning to shoot" metaphor, I hear that a lot, but it's really not accurate either (it's come up in the other 'sparring' thread as well). In fact, I'd consider shooting at the range to be more like sparring, as it's a known environment, with safety measures, no movement of the target, and an unrealistic environment to use a gun in. There are, however, tactical shooting ranges, which you move through, and have targets pop up, some you have to shoot, some you have to protect, moving targets, and the like. The FBI have used such training villages for many years, and my instructor used to go to one semi-regularly (mainly for fun, to be honest!).

As far as the story in Yossi's article, there wasn't much mentioned other than what the other guys had... although you might want to mention to Yossi that there isn't such a thing as "Kukishin Ryu Ichimonji". There's a Hira Ichimonji, but that'd be rather inadvisable to adopt when being approached by a group with impact weapons. Ichimonji is from Gyokko Ryu.

And regarding the sparring in the background of the video, I don't really think it represents anything in particular- some veterans are sparring while using the belt of their Gi, or using the walls of the dojo etc, there is a lot you don't see in that video...

Sparring against multiple opponents is done regularly in Akban but you don't see that in this video also....

The issue isn't the conditions that are put upon the students (use a belt, stay on the wall, stay on the ground etc), it's that there is no trace of Ninjutsu methodologies present at all. If there are any videos showing actual Ninjutsu being sparred, can you show them? So far the only clips we've seen are nothing to do with the art itself.

Hi Chris

I LOVE that video and know it well.

It's certainly a good one to show what training used to be like.... kids today, huh?

You see, I think you and I mainly disagree about the amount of difference between the martial arts, or the fighting techniques.

I'll put it this way, then.

When you are training, you are conditioning yourself to respond in a certain way. What you are conditioning is less your body than most think, and more your mind, specifically, your unconscious mind. You see, when it all comes down to it, it's your unconscious mind that's in charge. So you need to ensure that what you train in is solid and strong.

The reason the unconscious is in charge (well, it always is, but in this specific case where it comes to the fore) is that, under the stress and adrenaline of a real, sudden, dangerous encounter, the conscious mind shuts down. This is a survival trait, as the conscious mind is too slow to act, it gets removed from the equation.

Thing is, though, the unconscious can only give you one option to use at any one time. So what it'll do under that stress is look inside itself for anything that can be used in the circumstances.... something that has been put in a box labelled "Strong, Survival, Powerful, etc". If you've trained one thing, and trained it in a way that you have put it in that "Strong, Survival" box, you'll have one choice, and you'll go with that. That's the idea of training in a martial art, you give yourself the single approach (one thing in the box), and put everything behind that. However, if you have two different ideas trained, especially if they don't "fit" with each other (such as the two different methods found in the Akban clips, having completely different ideas of power, distance, angling, posture, striking, kicking, grappling, and more), one of a couple of things will occur.

First, you may believe (unconsciously) that they are both powerful, so you have an unconscious choice. Okay, but whichever is chosen (which would be the one believed to be more powerful, more successful, the "better" choice), the other is discarded. It doesn't matter if you've spent 13 years training one, and 2 months training the other, if the 2 month one is believed to be the more powerful option, that 13 years is frankly just wasted time and effort, because it won't be there to be called upon. Similarly, you may have only had an unconscious belief about one of the two training methods when training them, so half the training is wasted (which could be from anywhere, by the way... having success in sparring with the more kickboxing approach could feel more powerful for you, so the ninjutsu training doesn't get a look in, being believed to be less powerful... or the Ninjutsu could be believed more powerful, as you have felt the locks and throws, maybe got the wind knocked out of you by a throw early on, so the kickboxing side of things, even though it's the "tested" aspect, amounts to nothing as well). Bear in mind that the belief can really have no logical reason for it... it could be that one side looks more like the movies you saw as a kid, so that's considered (unconsciously) to be more powerful, even if you're not as good at that as opposed to the other side.

The worse scenario is that the two counteract each other. You may have doubts about your Ninjutsu ability (and it's reliability) as your sparring has shown you no success with it... while at the same time not trusting the sparred (kickboxing) training as it doesn't have the same impact as the Ninjutsu side of your training. The end result is that when you go to look in that little "Strong, Survival" box... there's nothing there, as you haven't considered anything you do strong, or suited to survival. This is where "Freeze" happens (from "Fight, Flight, or Freeze").

When learning a martial art, you're not learning (conditioning into yourself) techniques, you're learning a particular approach to combat, with a particular way of achieving things like power and success. Giving yourself more than one way of achieving that is not a good idea, and is a conscious mind attempt to give yourself an illusion of control and ability. You need a single, coherent, congruent approach, otherwise you have nothing. Take the example of your guy in Yossi's story, he was approached, he immediately adopted Ichimonji no Kamae. Why? Because he unconsciously believed that was powerful. It might not be the best option for him, it might not strategically be a good idea, but he unconsciously believed it was the most powerful responce he could give. And, from the sounds of things, it worked for him. Great. But if he then started using the kickboxing strikes and kicks from that posture, they would have been rather lacking in power, as the kamae is in no way set-up to deliver power in that way. So hopefully he didn't.

Hatsumi grabbing Doron by the hair in the video, although it's what I call "classic ninjutsu" is not JUST ninjutsu, you know?
It's grabbing the hair.
People do that all the time, and it make total sense, even without learning ninjutsu.

Actually, there's some specific approaches to pulling hair that exist in our traditions, but that's by the by. More realistically, you're still looking at "techniques", which isn't the reality. What is trained is the approach, underscored by beliefs. The approach being trained needs to be the one being tested, not a completely different one.

I remember when first starting in Akban the first few years I got to sparr mainly in ground fighting (Ne waza) for some reason, and then the group I was at moved to round sparring (strikes were allowed as well in the Ne waza) and wow- I was blown away- such a difference between just waiting in the guard for the opponent to make a mistake (Bjj style) and realizing you are being exposed to strikes!

Yeah, staggered introductions, gradually increasing the scope, is great. But if none of it was from what you were training in (the Ninjutsu side of things), it's all still rather pointless.

And then, some of the sparring were done as "classical ninjutsu" and I was blown away again!
I thought I had the strikes and Ne Waza under control, and now all of a sudden eye gouging is allowed, groin attacks, small joint manipulation (all with care and compassion of course), and wow, what a difference again!
Now it's not just strikes, if the opponent has his hand on your face during a struggle on the ground, you and him know that he could have just as easily pulled one of your eyes out!

Eye-gouging, groin attacks, and small joint manipulation doesn't make it any more Ninjutsu than not having them, you realize. It's just a slightly wider range of offensive and defensive actions available to you.

And I loved that. That feeling of sudden vulnerability just opens up the horizons.
Those layers of understanding can only come from sparring, I believe.
You learn something, get good at it, and then realize it's useless in some situations- a wonderful disillusion.

I get that, I really do. And I agree wholeheartedly. However the question still remains what is being tested?

Look at the video, how they sparr in a downhill, we do that too- and (like the iPhone) it changes everything, again!

Again, change of environment as a training device, fantastic. But what was being tested? Ninjutsu? Or something completely different?

oh and in the 24 hour sparring (it was sparring- in one of them we had representatives from the guinness book of world records...) , I was there, twice- in the video you can see us perform a kata (I think Jumonji no kata) right at the end of one of the 24 hour sessions - a thousand times.

Haha, it sounds crazy when I write about it like that.
well it WAS crazy.
damn I miss it.

Yeah, it did look fun...

And here are some more thoughts that might interest you on this subject from an Akban veteran.

Honestly, that entire article basically agreed with me. You're not using what is taught in the Ninjutsu Ryu-ha when sparring, as you're going for a "sports martial art" approach, while agreeing that it's not Ninjutsu, and not suited to Ninjutsu usage, application, or training at all. There are a few major issues with the article, though (such as the "all fights go to ground" myth, which is far from accurate, being used as a reason for some of the training), but it does highlight that, if you want to get good at the Ninjutsu side of things, the sparring isn't where it happens, and if you want to get good at the sporting approach (which is what the sparring there is), then the Ninjutsu teachings aren't of much value.

So why have them presented as the same art?