sparring

[r erman]

Ahh that kind of sweeping. I thought you were talking about standing sweeps and reaps like osoto or kosoto--which are in the booj.

If you had mentioned the helicopter sweep(or some other positional change), or shrimping, I would have known to what you were referring.

Thanks,

 

[DWeidman]

I dunno. I still think most people have too much "fear" of being taken to the ground.

Does it change the fight? Sure. Does it mean you are beat? No.

Will "sparring" teach you to fight a BJJ guy?

Doubtful.

Well - Cowboy up, sign the waiver, and pay your $20 for a matt fee at a good BJJ school. Then ask them to show you what a good groundfighter does when he is in his element.

You **SHOULD** be afraid of the ground if you aren't already somewhat skilled in that area.

With that said - groundfighting is in the Buj. Either find a teacher who teaches it - or suppliment. Or don't (I guess)...

Some people have made it sound like you are doomed if you are fighting a ground fighter in a "duel". This is hardly the case - but you do have to train specifically to stay clear of them.

Anywho - this is an interesting turn for the conversation...

-Daniel

 

[KyleShort]

"Rolling" aka sparring is a critical part of grappling training as well. My booj dojo taught some groundfighing, and certainly the techniques can be found in the larger body of knowledge of BBT.

Along the same lines as the original sparring discussion, do many of you that actually practice groundwork in the bujinkan "roll" aka spar? In my dojo I did not see any of this.

I think you could make an even stronger case to say that technique and principle training will not make you a good ground fighter, you must roll free with oponents and rack up the experience. Groundfighting is all about positioning and moving yourself into submissions and strikes...that is so dynamic that the only way to train it is to experience it.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If one person's will to get up and/or away is stronger than his will to put his opponent into submission, which usually is the case in self defense situations, a test of skills in groundfighting is a pretty pointless endeavour.

 

[r erman]

If one person's will to get up and/or away is stronger than his will to put his opponent into submission, which usually is the case in self defense situations, a test of skills in groundfighting is a pretty pointless endeavour.

This is somewhat myopic. Anyone can be taken or knocked to the ground. If you do not have the ability to escape someone who has you in a dominant position, you...will...not...get...away.

Screw submission, have a good judoka or bjj'er get a positional control--like the mount or cross-body--and try to get up and away. Sorry, but unless you have worked on this in a field of resistance--there's that nasty 'r' word again--you may be in for a world of a surprise. You might be surprised how hard it is to access weapons as well.

This stuff has to be isolated and drilled(& sparred) to be effective. Any good grappler will tell you that positional control and positional escapes are far more important than any submission...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If you do not have the ability to escape someone who has you in a dominant position, you...will...not...get...away.

Nor will you if the person you're up (or down ) against is more skilled than yourself.

You might be surprised how hard it is to access weapons as well.

Funny, my experience is just the opposite, depending of course on how the weapon is carried. (hint: www.shivworks.com )

 

[KyleShort]

If one person's will to get up and/or away is stronger than his will to put his opponent into submission, which usually is the case in self defense situations, a test of skills in groundfighting is a pretty pointless endeavour.

I can't say that agree with you here. While it is true that if you are more concerned about getting up and away, you will have a better chance at being able to do it. However, as noted by someone else, just the simple act of escaping from a skilled ground fighter can be very hard...requires good training.

Of course, no one should assume that a striker is totally out of his game when on the ground. Sure in MMA, Judo etc. matches strikers do not fair well on the ground...BUT a BBT guy in self defense is not limited in the same way, making striking very valid...like elbows, eye gouges accompanied with small joint breaks etc.

But Nimravus...to your original quote, I actually think that there are times that you may not want to get up in a self defense situation. Primarily, when the opponent has a gun or knife, your primary opbejctive should be controlling them and the weapon....grappling skills are crucial here. If you try to get up before the weapon is neutralized you can invite an attack of opporunity.

So, generally speaking a striker on the ground can still strike very well (along with other tricks) and get up...however when I weapon is in play he may need to take on the role of a grappler for a bit.

IMO

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Of course, you have to go through some trouble first before you encounter a skilled groundfighter determined to pin you to the ground...:asian:

Quite frankly, I think the idea that knives and guns are more easily held in check while on the ground is pure ********. Especially if you don't know about them beforehand.

 

[r erman]

Funny, my experience is just the opposite, depending of course on how the weapon is carried.

Also depending on the skill of the person keeping you from it.

I drill weapon retention and deployment as often as possible, I hope you do too. Unless you carry a neck knife or have a shoulder harness it is hard to deploy against someone who has you mounted. Not impossible, but hard.

 

[rutherford]

Of course, you have to go through some trouble first before you encounter a skilled groundfighter determined to pin you to the ground...:asian:

Nimravus, I'm not quite clear on your point through the last several posts. Is this an accurate summary?

I don't need to roll / spar groundfighting because:

1. There is effective groundfighting within Bujinkan training the does not include rolling / sparring
2. rolling / sparring groundfighting is pointless
3. Knowing a little bit of groundfighting through cross training could lead you to being overconfident and get you into trouble if you've encountered a more skilled individual
4. Getting into a groundfight is unlikely, and your primary means of self defense should be escape
5. Control of a knife / gun / or other weapon is not easier on the ground
6. If you do find yourself stuck, hope to be able to reach a backup shiv

I have issues with some of these statements, but don't want to attack strawmen or tilt at windmills.

I will point out that I'm of the opinion that women especially should know how to deal with an attacker armed with a knife who is interested in a ground "fight". This is an all too common self defense situation.

 

[rutherford]

I drill weapon retention and deployment as often as possible, I hope you do too. Unless you carry a neck knife or have a shoulder harness it is hard to deploy against someone who has you mounted. Not impossible, but hard.

Damn hard, to the point where I'd say it's totally impossible if you don't understand defensive control from this position.

I think it's really instructional to wear a motorcycle helmet and let a ground and pound fighter mount you. Once the first blow bounces off your helmet, you understand.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well - Cowboy up, sign the waiver, and pay your $20 for a matt fee at a good BJJ school. Then ask them to show you what a good groundfighter does when he is in his element.

You **SHOULD** be afraid of the ground if you aren't already somewhat skilled in that area.

With that said - groundfighting is in the Buj. Either find a teacher who teaches it - or suppliment. Or don't (I guess)...

Some people have made it sound like you are doomed if you are fighting a ground fighter in a "duel". This is hardly the case - but you do have to train specifically to stay clear of them.

Anywho - this is an interesting turn for the conversation...

-Daniel

We do groundfighting in my Buj School.

And I still dont see where BJJ is the "end all be all" ultimate martial art. Yes, I have had exposure to it.

Also, I would like to point out that my earlier comment using the term "weapons" did not refer to knives, etc... by weapons I meant Feet, Hands, KNees, Elbows, head, teeth, etc...

 

[rutherford]

We do groundfighting in my Buj School.

We do as well.

 

[KyleShort]

Of course, you have to go through some trouble first before you encounter a skilled groundfighter determined to pin you to the ground...:asian:

Quite frankly, I think the idea that knives and guns are more easily held in check while on the ground is pure ********. Especially if you don't know about them beforehand.

I agree that in all likelyhood, you will not have to defend yourself against someone trained in Judo, Sambo, BJJ, Catch etc. in a self defense situation. However I for one do not train with the intention of dueling another grappler. As an escrimador, I am primarily focused on the application of weapons.

To me self defense on the ground must give primary concern to weapons. At such a close range it is VERY difficult to avoid being stabbed or shot. If your primary concern is to get up and away then I believe that you will invite attacks of opportunity. Rather, your first order of business should be to neutralize the weapon through controlling strikes and joint breaks (aka grappling). After that is done, feel free to escape.

I do however agree with you that knives and guns are not easier to control while on the ground....they are harder because you have less control over space/range. Further adding to the importance of being trained to grapple on the ground.

I would like to hear Steve LeFebvre's input on this as he is both a high level practioner of BBT and Sayoc Kali.

 

[rutherford]

I agree that in all likelyhood, you will not have to defend yourself against someone trained in Judo, Sambo, BJJ, Catch etc. in a self defense situation..

Why? Judo is hugely popular and BJJ is The Big Thing. In the US, if you bump into somebody with training, I'd say that the chances are fairly good.

However I for one do not train with the intention of dueling another grappler. As an escrimador, I am primarily focused on the application of weapons.

To me self defense on the ground must give primary concern to weapons. At such a close range it is VERY difficult to avoid being stabbed or shot. If your primary concern is to get up and away then I believe that you will invite
attacks of opportunity.

Up and Away would not be good taijutsu. If your primary concern is to get away, you have a lot of tools at your disposal to do so that don't have up involved until you're away.

Rather, your first order of business should be to neutralize the weapon through controlling strikes and joint breaks (aka grappling). After that is done, feel free to escape.

I just get images of some poor guy trying to armbar somebody holding a knife. What you describe isn't a submission fight. This is going to be over quickly, and decisively.

To go back to the discussion on sparring, I'm not sure how rolling / sparring is applicable here. In fact, I think you've given a good example of a place where it's not applicable - even if the attacker is wearing FIST gear or similar protective measures.

 

[DWeidman]

We do groundfighting in my Buj School.

And I still dont see where BJJ is the "end all be all" ultimate martial art. Yes, I have had exposure to it.

Also, I would like to point out that my earlier comment using the term "weapons" did not refer to knives, etc... by weapons I meant Feet, Hands, KNees, Elbows, head, teeth, etc...

Hmmmm...

There is an old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none..." -- which I feel appropriately addresses the Bujinkan Method.

99% of us lose a duel with a boxer (if we play by boxing rules) - and 99% of us lose to a BJJ Groundfighter (if we play by their rules). Same with weapons (99% of us lose to escrima guys with sticks).

The strength of what Hatsumi Sensei teaches is in the application of single principles across broad spectrums of skills (happo biken). This means that we are never held to playing by ANYONE's rules in combat - which gives us an overall advantage as long as the "rules" aren't preset.

With that said - it is relatively simple to imagine scenarios where the battleground is preset by the actions of the aggressors (self defense - as defined by nononsenseselfdefense). You don't get to set up anything - just react to what is coming (or what just happened). As such - being comfortable in all of the elements is more important than training for specific scenarios.

I still train in the Bujinkan because I believe it is the best path to travel - and the one that widely applicable to life even beyond martial conflict. This doesn't mean that I **assume** my skills are at par to handle anything -- I test my *realtime* reactions with free-response / rolling as a TOOL to judge how much of my toolbox is really useable under some kind of stressor. Again - from nononsenseselfdefense - in the real thing you undergo what Marc calls "Performance Anxiety." Free-response has some of the elements of that - although not to the extreme you MAY see on the street (but, conversely, your "sparring" in class may be more intense then what you meet on the street (pub?) as well).

Anywho - this thread is drifting from free-reponse to groundfighting...

-Daniel

 

[Cryozombie]

99% of us lose a duel with a boxer (if we play by boxing rules) - and 99% of us lose to a BJJ Groundfighter (if we play by their rules). Same with weapons (99% of us lose to escrima guys with sticks).

Ahh... and THAT is an important lesson - Never fight your enemy's fight.

 

[rutherford]

Ahh... and THAT is an important lesson - Never fight your enemy's fight.

Sure. Nagato-sensei is quoted as saying much the same here on this page on groundfighting: http://uk.geocities.com/bcdojo/nagato.htm

I fail to see the relevance to this thread, except as reasons against sparring / rolling.

I also find the cliche "master of none" to be inappropriate. The principles that apply across broad spectrums of skills are exactly what's mastered, and arguably what's most important.

 

[DWeidman]

I also find the cliche "master of none" to be inappropriate. The principles that apply across broad spectrums of skills are exactly what's mastered, and arguably what's most important.

So.... pick the element we are Masters of. What are we the best in?

-Daniel

BTW - being broad spectrum means "not the best in any specific band", neh?

 

[Shogun]

A popular strategy among MMA enthusiasts is to "take the fight". meaning, you dont have to be fighting, and they will still be doing so.