Sometimes, it's difficult to imagine a time When we were not martial artists

[lklawson]

I was taught some Wrestling and Boxing at a very young age. I literally cannot remember not being Trained to some extent

I had wooden wasters in my boys hand by the time he was 4 or 5 and by the time he was 5 or 6 he'd already learned the 5 basic blocks of the highland broadsword method along with the basic 6/7 cuts and a thrust. He also learned the hardest lesson possible for a 5 year old wanting to have fun: Cut at the arm and body, not at the sword being swung at you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kenlee25]

Doesn't bother me a bit.

First off, they were probably just having fun and maybe getting a little exercise. I doubt that they were trying to fool themselves into thinking they were the next Ali or anything. Just goofing. But even in the event that they were serious, it would still make me happy. I'm old and slow. I'll take any advantage I can get.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

True, But you don't have to necesarilly be fast on the street. It's all about timeing. Block their strikes, hit in the face once then knee em in the groin. That will probably end most confrontations. Not to mention the older you are, the less people generally want to fight with you.

now a real self defense situation ( as in life or death ) is a different story

 

[Kenlee25]

I have been looking to see if I could find a natural stance vid to illustrate my thoughts. This is one of the closest:

IMO, the stance should be natural, not too deep, weight evenly distributed, hips slightly turned, hands just about shoulder height, elbows tucked in nice and close. I would suggest the hands should be open regardless of the situation (sparring or SD). One thing I saw demonstrated was to jump up and down a couple of times on the spot then take one foot straight back a short distance. That gave a good stable stance from which it is easy to move in any direction. For me, the JKD stance is unnatural and way too deep.

Back to the OP. I think it's good that the guys are at least putting gloves on to play around, even if their technique is less than we would expect. Given time they might decide to take lessons. As Cyriacus said, we started boxing and wrestling when we were young kids. :asian:

The one suggestion that I say to make with any stance ( the natural self defense stance or squaring up/already in the fight stance ) is to have your back foot on the ball of your foot. Always. Sure plant it deep into the ground and be stable, but this allows you not only to spring forward quicker and generate more power, but to be ready to move when you need to, launch a kick, or defend against a grappling/tackle easier. Pretty much any time you are not actively attacking or defending, your back foot should be on the ball, ready to spring.

That little tip itself has drastically improved my speed in sparring, as well as my ability to launch the move I need to launch closer to the time in which my brain sends the signal. One less step, ya know? I picked that little tidbit up from JKD as well, but I made sure to test it first. There were parts of Bruce's book I just threw out as bull while some that I embraced whole hearted.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I can't say I haven't had thoughts like that. Mostly when I was a green belt and thought I knew everything about martial arts. Now, as a brown belt, I think maybe I don't know anything.

I know nothing and understand less.

Some day I will realize that I need to not even ask the question, and maybe some day I will realize there is no question.

 

[lklawson]

True, But you don't have to necesarilly be fast on the street. It's all about timeing. Block their strikes, hit in the face once then knee em in the groin. That will probably end most confrontations. Not to mention the older you are, the less people generally want to fight with you.

I've seen people plow through blocks. I've seen people eat punches to the face. I've seen people soak up nut shots. Adrenaline can let you fight through a ruptured testicle and not know it.

now a real self defense situation ( as in life or death ) is a different story

Not every "real self defense situation" is actually, in truth, life or death and there are lots of "real fights" which are neither.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Cyriacus]

I've seen people plow through blocks. I've seen people eat punches to the face. I've seen people soak up nut shots. Adrenaline can let you fight through a ruptured testicle and not know it.

Not every "real self defense situation" is actually, in truth, life or death and there are lots of "real fights" which are neither.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yes.
Simply, Yes.
People overestimate/exaggerate the effect of a strike to the Groin. Even without Adrenalin, its not an incapacitating shot, unless Your Pain tolerance is poor. Itll hurt, yeah. So will a punch to the Head, or Ribs. As far as Ive seen, it seems to work out to provoking the other guy, more than anything.

And Yes, not all Fights are Life or Death. Theyre still pretty real.

Im mostly arcing at the first one though. Shots to the groin are not one hit wonders, and its dangerous to think that They are. For the simple reason that if You hit someone in the Groin, and Your conditioned Brain goes "HA! Its over! I busted His groin!", then He keeps attacking You, He now has the advantage, possibly more so if He had it already. There is no one single magical Self Defense move thatll act as a universal trump card, or there would be no need for the existance of so many Systems and Methods. Then Youd just have "Kick the Groin", and everyone would be too afraid to fight each other.

 

[Kenlee25]

Well yes, you are right. I'm still in school, so I always think in terms of school fights, which usually ends up in much less adrenaline and thus much less pain tolerance ( that, or I go to school with some really wimpy 18 and 19 year olds ).

Regardless, You are definitely right, you should not think of a groin shot as an end all be all, but if you land one and proceed to follow up from it quickly, it's a big step closer to victory don't you think? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing as a strike to the groin delivers a very different kind of pain than being struck with a fist anywhere else on the body, people aren't used to it. As such, it leaves them in a "stun" while they assess the weird source of pain. This stun may last for only a second or less, and if you aren't looking for it you may miss it, but if you put your groin strike into a combination and follow up with other techniques, it will place you much closer to winning the fight fast than say a straight lead to the face.

again I may be ( and probably am ) wrong.

 

[Cyriacus]

Well yes, you are right. I'm still in school, so I always think in terms of school fights, which usually ends up in much less adrenaline and thus much less pain tolerance ( that, or I go to school with some really wimpy 18 and 19 year olds ).

Regardless, You are definitely right, you should not think of a groin shot as an end all be all, but if you land one and proceed to follow up from it quickly, it's a big step closer to victory don't you think? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing as a strike to the groin delivers a very different kind of pain than being struck with a fist anywhere else on the body, people aren't used to it. As such, it leaves them in a "stun" while they assess the weird source of pain. This stun may last for only a second or less, and if you aren't looking for it you may miss it, but if you put your groin strike into a combination and follow up with other techniques, it will place you much closer to winning the fight fast than say a straight lead to the face.

again I may be ( and probably am ) wrong.

Youre not wrong in Your conclusion, just a little bit of how You got to it.

A forceful blow to the anything will stun someone, especially when theres less Adrenalin going around. Especially a good sharp kick.
Ill let You simulate this Yourself: Punch Yourself on the inside of Your thigh, about halfway between Your Groin and Your Knee. Then do the same thing on the outside when You start feeling it.
Then, on the front, and back, of the same thigh.
Low and behold, all of it has impact, and all of them will have You feeling it for a second, or more, depending on how hard You smacked it. Then just imagine a full force blow. It isnt necessarily incapacitating, but itll smart.
The biggest problem is that the more adrenaline there is, the less likely any kicking will take place at all, unless its to lumber over to someone whos gotten out of range. Much less convincing Yourself to do a strong upward kick, whilst Your hands resultingly hold still, which isnt safe practice in an altercation thats already kicked off.
As such, Id prefer snapping a lead leg kick at the leg, instead of the groin, then just lunging forward.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

...one of the things I am most grateful for in martial arts is the courage in admitting that I don't know, but also the resolve to learn and understand because I want to know...but most especially for my master instructor who says he'll be there..."on my back"...and teaching for "years to come"...

 

[lklawson]

As such, it leaves them in a "stun" while they assess the weird source of pain. This stun may last for only a second or less, and if you aren't looking for it you may miss it, but if you put your groin strike into a combination and follow up with other techniques, it will place you much closer to winning the fight fast than say a straight lead to the face.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. You can't count on it any more than anything else. It's not Harry Potter's magic wand. Like getting shot. Some people can eat bullets and crap icecream; soaking up round after round after round. Some people drop after getting shot once with a BB.

Are groin shots useful? Yes. But they're not magic and they don't affect everyone equally. Some people they won't affect at all, at least not immediately.

Same goes for anything else that has a primary effect of creating pain. Unless it's actually breaking stuff off, making it bend in directions God never intended, or causing hypoxia or exsanguination, then some folks can fight through the pain or may not even notice it. Heck, there are some folks who will keep on fighting even though they've got something broken.

The problem is, that these folks don't wear signs. If that wiring looking, pissed off dude, over there had a sign around his neck that said, "Been shot twice and didn't feel it while fighting with a mangled hand" then I'd know that a nut-shot is probably not a high percentage technique with him. Right?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Dan Hobson]

May I just ask, as a white belt myself, at roughly what point in your martial arts training would you expect someone to develop this 'martial arts vision'? Obviously it will depend on the individual but even I, after only a couple of months training, have found myself becoming much more aware of what's going on around me.

 

[Cyriacus]

It depends.

For Me, it was about 3 months.
About a month later, i had another revelation of understanding that made Me wonder how I ever misunderstood things as I did a month before.

In other words, Youre always learning.

 

[Kenlee25]

May I just ask, as a white belt myself, at roughly what point in your martial arts training would you expect someone to develop this 'martial arts vision'? Obviously it will depend on the individual but even I, after only a couple of months training, have found myself becoming much more aware of what's going on around me.

Yes it very much depends on the person as well as the art the person is training. In my opinion ( so take that with a grain of salt ) A person studying Krav Maga will develop a much stronger martial arts vision at a much faster rate than Traditional martial artists for example, as is the nature of their training. Martial arts vision ( as I call it ) can be a simple as having a better awareness of your surroundings to being able to instantly analyze a situation without trying. If you get good enough at it, you can run numerous simulations in your head quickly within a short amount of time. You will probably never execute them, but it gets your mind ready.

For example: This jerk was talking crap to me at school. Mind you, I said nothing to him to instigate a fight, and I had absolutely no intentions of getting into one -- he's just that kind of jerkish guy that everyone hates--, but just in case he decided to throw down, Within about 5 seconds of when he actually turned towards me, I had already begun to analyze the entirety of the situation. What moves I could do from my sitting at the lunch table position, approximately how long it would take for security to get there, how many trust-able eye witnesses were in the area that would vouch for me, the parts of his body that are open to attack that WON'T kill him and the parts of my body available for attack. Which of my food items I could use as distraction or weapon, how exactly I would get up, Where can i stand that gives me the most room to throw down, how to move so as to keep the fight AWAY from my female friends also sitting at the table, etc etc all of that stuff.

However it took me a long time to get that point. "Martial arts vision" is more about your own mental conditioning than physical training.

 

[K-man]

People overestimate/exaggerate the effect of a strike to the Groin. Even without Adrenalin, its not an incapacitating shot, unless Your Pain tolerance is poor. Itll hurt, yeah. So will a punch to the Head, or Ribs. As far as Ive seen, it seems to work out to provoking the other guy, more than anything.

That might be so, but in one altercation I had many years ago, the guy rushed in (can't remember if he threw a punch but if he did it didn't land) and I lifted my knee. Guy drops to ground, fight over, time ... less than one second. Don't underestimate its effect. :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

That might be so, but in one altercation I had many years ago, the guy rushed in (can't remember if he threw a punch but if he did it didn't land) and I lifted my knee. Guy drops to ground, fight over, time ... less than one second. Don't underestimate its effect. :asian:

I imagine if someone ran into a front kick to the ribs, or a punch to the face, the effect wouldnt be much different.
Dont underestimate two moving objects slamming into each other, when the Striking Tool is ultimately harder and possibly higher in acceleration than the persons poor bones.
Or testicles. Or more likely in this case, the Pelvis.
Plus, if it was early on, as in, the first punch, then He wouldnt have been very adrenalised yet.