The Mythology of the streetfighter

[myusername]

For me personally I do fear the street brawler as very much like Tez I view them as having traits of psychopathic personality disorder. They take pleasure in causing harm and they feel no remorse for the pain they cause. That is scary. It's not putting them on a pedestal as such it's more a genuine fear as to what somebody who fights with no sense of restraint could do to me.

I think it is very healthy for us as martial artists not to under estimate the power of hate and uncontrolled aggression regardless of skill or technical ability. My core personality and nature is so very different to the street brawler that I NEED to have it constantly reinforced that there are people out there who would not care wether I lived or died. I MUST have it drilled in to me that there are vicious people who would not be satisfied with just giving me a mild hiding/beating but instead quite happily stomp on my head until the cows come home!

Without this fear and aspect of my training my technical ability and skill level would stand for nothing as I know I would hold back too much and get hurt trying to be Mr Nice Guy.

Keep the "mythology" alive I say!

 

[Sukerkin]

I would have utterly agreed with your above there, MUN if it wasn't for my one and only 'real world' experience of having to use my art.

When the time came to 'choose', I certainly excercised restraint in that I did not attempt to kill my attackers but neither did I hold back from using the most instantly disabling techniques that occured to me.

Of course this does interface with the Street Tough legend that we've been addressing, as I've said before. If the breaks I employed had not stopped the assailants in their tracks (especially being explosively 'deployed' from a 'passive' starting point) then all my training would have been for naught as I had met people who were simply more resilient in the face of pain and disablement than me.

You can't train for that, you can only plan for how you will react when you face it - I suggest running like hell .

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Nasty!

And quite brief, assuming 1 to 1, "Pro vs. Joe" type of deal.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Most people fear a 'street fighter' because they simply classify people by what they think a street fighter is.

There are street punks and a few skilled people who I guess you could really call a 'street fighter'.

Most are punks. Unskilled, uneducated, may or not be strong from hard work, may or many not be on drugs/booze, may or may not have a record. They usually go on packs cause they don't have the courage to do their attacking alone. They feed off each other to get the guts to try something. Most will run at the first sign of serious resistance. They look for easy marks, easy victories.

A true 'street fighter', if there is such an animal, are simply skiled from actual fights. They may actually know some good techniques and have used them before for real (and we all know to be effective all you really need is a few good punches, kicks, blocks, and a takedown or two.) They have no moral qualms about hurting others. They don't worry about the law case they have a record already. And they have no dojo 'rules' to play by.

Thing is, most of us DO have some qualms about hurting others. Most of us do worry about getting in legal trouble. Most of us simply don't go around doing one of the Three Stupids. So we don't get all that fun street practice.

I would not worry much about bumping into a real 'street fighter'.

Oh, and not all martial artist are dojo queens that know only 'above the belt' stuff. Many are intelligent enough to train in other ways beside what the art teaches.

Deaf

 

[Rich Parsons]

I have been in fights in my youth and thanks to Youtube I can see countless fights.

As Martial artists why is the streetfighter feared or put on a pedestal?

I have and seen fights and also I have been in fights and these things seem to come into play:

Hands are usually at chest level

When striking the face is turned away to avoid getting hit.

Strikes are "wild" or "aim for the fence"

Swings are with a down motion with the back hand.

Rushing and clinches.

Most opponent or dominant goes forward.

Overly commited off balance.

Anything else you can add?

I bounced for years and did security at events as well.

I have seen lots of the wild fighters.

I knew some guys who knew how to trap down and give one good punch. They were very good at that one punch.

I knew some others that were wrestlers that could pin others with no problem.

There were lots of drunks. I call these drunks.

There were lots who postured. These are bullies.

There were lots who sucker punched and once you were off balance they took advantage of your pain or recovery time.

To me the "Street Fighters" were and are some good fighters, they are not the above drunks or bullies.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Rich,

In your experience what percent would you say were skilled fighters vs
unskilled fighters?


I can only recall one fight I have been in dealing with a tactical fighter.

I fully agree with you on the sucker punch. It mostly comes from taking the initiative during the word exchange(based on my experience)

One thing I always found interesting in watching Streetfights is the weird stances and hand position.

 

[Frostbite]

This might make me extremely unpopular but here goes: I think the problem is that we fight like we train.

There...I said it. :jaw-dropping:

Seriously though, how many times have you watched a "self-defense" demonstration in person or on YouTube that consisted of the attacker throwing one punch and the defender blocking it and doing 20982098234 techniques and then strutting away like they're the best fighter in the world? People train that way, see demonstrations from the so-called experts that work that way and then are amazed that what they trained in the dojo doesn't work on the street.

I think the biggest things that has contributed to the myth of the streetfighter is martial artists working off a script. They repeatedly train certain responses to certain attacks and fail to grasp the bigger picture. That the techniques they're learning are just tools in their self defense toolbox. What happens if they miss or something doesn't have the desired effect?

The second biggest thing that contributes to the myth is that training tends to go out the window when it comes to the adrenaline/stress response. I've personally ended two street fights with a headbutt. How many martial arts programs include this in their repertoire? I'd trained in some Muay Thai up to the point but my instinct told me to smash them with my head. What if under stress you freeze? Generally speaking, the streetfighter has the advantage of expecting the fight because they're often the agressor. What if you're sucker punched? Will your training kick in or will you curl into the fetal position?

The best and hardest training is learning to adapt and go with the flow. The only even remotely good way to train this is to either train with non-compliant partners or sparring.

 

[jarrod]

i agree with frostbite. i think a lot of fear of "streetfighters" is an underlying doubt about the realism of our own training. this plagued me greatly early in my martial arts training. if a martial artist views his training as a guidline to fighting, they will be fine. if they try to do everything exactly as choreographed, they will fall short when the faced with someone who is not internally fighting any preconceived notions of what a fight is supposed to be.

jf

 

[exile]

i agree with frostbite. i think a lot of fear of "streetfighters" is an underlying doubt about the realism of our own training. this plagued me greatly early in my martial arts training. if a martial artist views his training as a guidline to fighting, they will be fine. if they try to do everything exactly as choreographed, they will fall short when the faced with someone who is not internally fighting any preconceived notions of what a fight is supposed to be.

This is the crucial bit. And what''s important is that students learn to think creatively about the technical components of their training and how these could be adapted for real combat. A hint of the kind of thinking involved is shown in Geoff Thompson's wonderful little book, The Pavement Arena, which is specifically devoted to illustrating (not exhaustively detailing) how standard techniques and kata sequences from karate can be used effectively under the frighteningly chaotic conditions of a street attack. But students have to be trained to think along these lines, and there's the rub: all too few instructors, from what I've seen, try to teach that kind of thinking from the ground up. The model seems to be, you get students to learn kata/hyungs and kihon techs robotically in the standard Funakoshi-style 'line dance' training drill, and only later on, when they get to brown belt or something more advanced, do they get let in on the secret that hey, you've got to adapt what you know to real combat conditions. There seems to be a point of view out there that takes students early in the game as 'not ready' for this rather crucial bit of information.

My own preference is to point out from the get-go, to our white belts, that all of the basic blocking techs they're learning have striking components, and that chambering movements conceal hard striking techs, particularly elbow attacks, that pivots are applicable to throws, and so on. The point is not so much to make everything SD applications from the outset, but rather to try to encourage an attitude: don't take the movements themselves literally, they aren't necessarily what they seem to be, learn the patterns but think about how you could use these techniques in close-quarter violence. I think socializing students into that kind of inquiring frame of mind—what can I use this tech to do, how can I apply these motions effectively?—is absolutely essential if we want to avoid turning out choreographic robots. I know there's a lot of disagreement about when the CQ/SD aspects of MA training should be introduced, but my preference is to do it as early as as possible, just to get people thinking about it in those terms from the very beginning. Like anything, I think, you get the best results when you begin as you mean to go on...

 

[hpulley]

As has been said above, the real mythos surrounding the street fighter is that they are someone who has and will fight. Many trained martial artists will, just like untrained people, simply freeze up in a real fight. They don't want to actually hurt people so they won't even though the result of this is themselves being hurt. A street fighter can and has fought and hurt people and been hurt. They probably still fear being hurt but not in the paralyzing way of someone who doesn't know what to expect. Good techniques or not they've been there. They're now veterans rather than innocents. No amount of refereed fights or dojo sparring can really set you up for this; you hope that training hard and grading (which does introduce some tension and nervousness for sure but not quite life and death) will get you ready but you won't really know until it happens. For a street fighter who has done it, not just a poser, they've already passed through this and that is real, not just a myth.

The sensei at my dojo does good sparring from the get go. From white belt up you do kihon, kata, bunkai and kumite including ippon, single exchange and slow, medium and full speed randori. To outsiders it would initially appear as if there is no kihon or kata in randori (looks like it is all thrown out) as no one does full middle blocks, fully chambered punches or anything but when you know what to look for, its all in there, just used in applications instead of the exaggerated full range of motion used in basics and forms. Stances and blocks are not static positions or full sequences which must be performed; you use as little or as much as you need starting anywhere and from any other position though it takes time to learn to transistion from one to another in a real situation. Blocks contain and are strikes and strikes are not simple either, they contain other strikes depending on the range so you don't have to think about it, you just perform them and go as far as the range requires so you don't really need to think if you're doing a knee or a kick, the appropriate one will happen depending on the range. I'm still a beginner but I really like doing it this way as it means I'm always thinking when learning a kata, "when would I use this? How could I use this?" instead of just counting moves and doing them like dance steps. It is better than just doing lines of kihon and 'dancing' kata but still doesn't prepare you for a real street fight. Only a real right can.

Example of my own: most people don't practice on pavement. I nearly knocked myself out in a real fight doing a 'good move'. I took a guy down well so he landed on his back and I ended up in side control but with the force of the throw my head hit the parking lot too and I had a moment where I zoned out. In a dojo on blue mats or in a bouncy MMA ring my head would have been fine as the ground is soft but in a real situation it was a dangerous move not only to my opponent but to myself as well. It would be dangerous to practice on black top but no safe training area will teach you that even lightly knocking your own head on the ground could be real trouble.

 

[kailat]

Let me see if I can add anything to this post. I've read some great post here...I'll have to add some personal experiences to get my point accross..

When I was younger a school yard fight was pretty common. In fact the first reall fight I can recall I ever gotten into was in the 3rd grade I punched a boy in the nose causing it to bleed because he pushed me on the playground. (today this kid- now grown man is an aquaintence as he is a sherriff deputy in a nearby county)

In the 5th grade one kid stompped on my foot for no reason and I again "punched" him in the nose we then became the best of friends still to this day.. (wierd how that happens)

In 6th grade I got into my first actual fight where I was actually hit back. It was over a girl yup! We met at the local park after school and after about 10mins of rolling around and punching each other nothing was really accomplished...still had the girl after the fight ; )

Started training karate and martial arts during this time: Several years went by and when I got into the 8th grade I think it was, I was bullied by a punk who always made fun of me for doing Karate.. Now, prior to me training MA I would of just fought him.. but i let this guy bully me for quite some time. He even hit me in the face 2 times and I walked away..
This idiot continued to harrass and pick on me for quite sometime until I just had enough of it.. I finally come unglued when he hit me w/ a wooden ruler during shop class. The 2nd time he reached up to hit me w/ it, I disarmed him and commenced to whooping him so bad that he went unconcious.. Hence i was suspended from school for 3 days..

2 weeks later he wanted to fight me again! this time knowing I could easily beat him I accepted his challenge. The time, place was set and guess what? He never showed.. he was made fun of for a while for this.

Ok so anyway to skip thru many other encounters over the years to come.. I had some pretty good knock down drag out "Street fights" while in my teen years. I fought in the ring several times as well.

What my point is, for me personally that I see is STREET FIGHTERS myth is its usually something that happens so quickly and the opportunity to prepare mentally for the fight isn't an option. Or u are expected to fight under pressure or when you really just don't want too... so sometime an intimidation factor is involved.

Street fighters "fight for thier own selfish desires" there are many guys I know that can hold thier own in a street fight and i've watched them hammer guys in the bar or outside the bar... just slammin dudes and kickng teeth out.. so this is the actions in a street fight one must be preparred for. THE RuSH that guys who A) are not afraid to street fight and B) don't fear pain or harming another human

Martial artist are normally not put under distress of defending themselves in "actuality" in the dojo.. we can train for it, and come as close as we can to prepare for the reality of Self Def. BUT it will never, ever come close enough to the real encounter... Truth is the realist way to prepare for a street fighter is to have actually had a few under your belt, so that understanding of what happens is in your head.

While working security at the hospitial or doing my reserve status on the police dept and even when I worked in the prison years ago, There is where I got into deep touch w/ my inner self... If anyone wants to know where that trigger in yourself is,, get a job that allows that to be flicked.. thats truthfully the only way I can express how to put yourself in that position and know what you are capable of doing.. After 100's of altecations w/ weapons, and being outnumbered and even one on one while "on the job" either on the streets, or in the prison you'll understand the difference of MA vs. Street fights pretty quickly.. I'll say the mythology of a streetfighter is based on certian individuals but to underestimate anyone is a battle you cant afford to lose.. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE ANYONE... In the street your life is more precious then those attacking you... In the street there are no rules... And even untrained fighters live by that rule.. moreso than anyone else.. i've heard it many many times.. There are no rules out here buddy!!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

In your experience what percent would you say were skilled fighters vs
unskilled fighters?


I can only recall one fight I have been in dealing with a tactical fighter.

I fully agree with you on the sucker punch. It mostly comes from taking the initiative during the word exchange(based on my experience)

One thing I always found interesting in watching Streetfights is the weird stances and hand position.

Well here is the problem.

The unskilled ones I did not and do not count as serious conflicts.

i.e. those too drunk to move or were able to be controlled with verbal.

And for those that were serious, does being hit by a car or truck count? Multiple opponents?

But just squared off one on one, I have met some that were pretty good. But being 6'3" and at that time 230 lbs most people did not like to risk it. But those that did, had no problems jumping me and or others.

I will put some thought into numbers and get back to you.

It is more than 15% and less than 90%.

Enough for me that I worried then and now. There are those who go from bar to bar or location to location looking for the right opportunity to fight.
Even the skilled ones would pick their fights.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Hey Rich thanks for the numbers it does put in perspective the number of skilled vs unskilled which hopefully will allow others reading this thread some critical thinking on training.

 

[GBlues]

I read a response on here that went something like, " There is no logical blows being thrown." Something to that effect. I think that is a big problem in and of itself. That martial artists have tried to take a streetfight, and put some kind of a logical sequence to the way combat is supposed to go. In a fight there is no logic, no sequence, no....order. It just is.

When I was a kid and my dad was teaching me self-defense, his big thing was, " No matter how good you get, no matter how hard you practice, if you don't believe this stuff works then it never will." I think that is true of all martial arts. You have to believe that it works, if you don't you may as well pack up your gi, and go someplace else.

The big thing with a street fighter if they are good especially is they are unpredictable. You do not know what they are going to do. I know that sounds stupid, but it's true. If you see a guy jump into a neutral bo, you can kind of guess that he's going to be a karate practitioner, or whatever stance, boxing, whatever. With streetfighters especially ones that are good at it, you just can't. ANyways that's my piece on the subject take it for what it's worth. About 2 cents I would imagine. LOL!