Some MA teachers only teach form without application?

[windwalker099]

Some may find the movie interesting...
A master violin teacher, a young violin prodigy...

Not all teachers seek fame. Not all well-known teachers are the best.
Not all teachers seek many students— only the right ones.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know"

If we all apply your logic here, there will be no online discussion. All our forum members here belong to "Those who speak do not know".

A: What should I do when ...?
B: You may try ... (Those who speak do not know).
C: You should ask your teacher/coach/sensei (Those who know do not speak).
D: Don't expect to get any valuable information online. Nobody will give you information for free (Those who know do not speak).
E: ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

ok, so your not exactly keen on elaborate on what you mean by your writing ...

Less is better than more, if we all apply the logic of "Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know".

 

[Same Trick]

Less is better than more, if we all apply the logic of "Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know".

“Who says A must say B”

 

[windwalker099]

If we all apply your logic here, there will be no online discussion.
All our forum members here belong to "Those who speak do not know".

Would not agree, nor would I classify them as such

In online forums, the loudest voices aren’t always the most knowledgeable. Often, those with the most expertise speak less, but when they do, their words carry weight.

 

[Appledog]

Would not agree, nor would I classify them as such

In online forums, the loudest voices aren’t always the most knowledgeable. Often, those with the most expertise speak less, but when they do, their words carry weight.

You don't agree? What is that supposed to mean? You don't understand what lao tzu said, so how can you disagree? What is written in Tao Te Ching chapter 56 refers to the dao, and is highly remeniscient of the phrase "the dao that can be told is not the true dao". The meaning of this chapter is usually taken as meditative advice when contemplating the dao, to not try to put it into words or understand it directly.

Second, this Chinese turn of phrase is not at all unique to daoism and appears in Confucianism, Buddhism, and general Chinese literature:

"To change oneself is to save oneself, to influence others is to save others". This grammar is poetic, not literal.

• "To control others is strength, to control oneself is true power." (Laozi, Chapter 33)
• "The soft overcomes the hard, the weak overcomes the strong." (Laozi, Chapter 78)
• "When the great Way is lost, there is benevolence; when benevolence is lost, there is righteousness." (Laozi, Chapter 38)
• "The more laws there are, the more thieves there will be." (Laozi, Chapter 57)
• "To see what is right and not do it is to lack courage." (Confucius, Analects 2.24)
• "A gentleman is calm and at ease; a petty person is always anxious and worried." (Analects 7.36)
• "The superior man seeks within; the inferior man seeks without." (Analects 15.20)

Forgetting not, that Laozi was a confucian scholar, the head of the the emperor's court library.

Also in Buddhism:

• "To gain is to lose; to lose is to gain."
• "The mind makes the world; the world makes the mind."
• "Sitting quietly, doing nothing, spring comes, and the grass grows by itself."

some others

• "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." (Laozi, Chapter 64)
• "Dripping water pierces stone, not by force but by persistence."
• "To know the road ahead, ask those who have traveled it."

What is going on here is not something you can just pick up and throw at people you disagree with, that just reveals your misunderstanding over what the phrase actually means. These are not hard dichotomies. They are poetic comparisons made to show a point. They do not actually apply in a black and white fashion.

As for "He who says A must say B" this is a German proverb („Wer A sagt, muss auch B sagen.“) that likely originates from Russian *("Сказал А, говори Б",) and has no meaning or application here. I didn't say anything -- Trick trolled the thread by asking me if I was involved in crimes, and I said no. What did you expect, now he is bringing up an old German proverb? Bravo Trick, class A trolling.

Look around -- The teaching is right in front of your eyes -- it is not necessarily that the applications are not being taught or that no response is being provided, it is that those with low morals cannot see it, they will not allow themselves to see it.

Let's close this off with a look at the standard commentary.

1. Wang bi ​

Wang Bi (王弼, 226–249 CE), one of the earliest and most influential commentators, emphasized the ineffability of the Tao. He wrote:

"The Tao cannot be grasped through words. Those who truly understand it recognize that language is inadequate, so they remain silent. Those who speak excessively are often those who lack true understanding."

2. He Shao (何劭, 3rd century CE)​

"A sage who governs does not boast of his knowledge. Instead, he nurtures the people with quiet wisdom and non-interference. Those who speak too much and claim to know everything are often deceiving themselves."

3. Heshang Gong (河上公, circa 2nd century CE), whose commentary is deeply mystical, explained:​

"To 'seal the openings' means to guard against excessive desires. To 'blunt the sharpness' means to let go of arrogance. To 'untie the knots' means to free oneself from attachments. The sage, through these actions, becomes one with the Tao."


Therefore the statement "he who knows does not talk, he who talks does not know" does not apply to online discussions. For example, to criticize this post as being 'excessive' would be to say that Wang Bi's words above have no value, or to insinuate that there was no reason to write down the tao te ching in the first place.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't agree? What is that supposed to mean? You don't understand what lao tzu said, so how can you disagree? What is written in Tao Te Ching chapter 56 refers to the dao, and is highly remeniscient of the phrase "the dao that can be told is not the true dao". The meaning of this chapter is usually taken as meditative advice when contemplating the dao, to not try to put it into words or understand it directly.

Second, this Chinese turn of phrase is not at all unique to daoism and appears in Confucianism, Buddhism, and general Chinese literature:

"To change oneself is to save oneself, to influence others is to save others". This grammar is poetic, not literal.

• "To control others is strength, to control oneself is true power." (Laozi, Chapter 33)
• "The soft overcomes the hard, the weak overcomes the strong." (Laozi, Chapter 78)
• "When the great Way is lost, there is benevolence; when benevolence is lost, there is righteousness." (Laozi, Chapter 38)
• "The more laws there are, the more thieves there will be." (Laozi, Chapter 57)
• "To see what is right and not do it is to lack courage." (Confucius, Analects 2.24)
• "A gentleman is calm and at ease; a petty person is always anxious and worried." (Analects 7.36)
• "The superior man seeks within; the inferior man seeks without." (Analects 15.20)

Forgetting not, that Laozi was a confucian scholar, the head of the the emperor's court library.

Also in Buddhism:

• "To gain is to lose; to lose is to gain."
• "The mind makes the world; the world makes the mind."
• "Sitting quietly, doing nothing, spring comes, and the grass grows by itself."

some others

• "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." (Laozi, Chapter 64)
• "Dripping water pierces stone, not by force but by persistence."
• "To know the road ahead, ask those who have traveled it."

What is going on here is not something you can just pick up and throw at people you disagree with, that just reveals your misunderstanding over what the phrase actually means. These are not hard dichotomies. They are poetic comparisons made to show a point. They do not actually apply in a black and white fashion.

As for "He who says A must say B" this is a German proverb („Wer A sagt, muss auch B sagen.“) that likely originates from Russian *("Сказал А, говори Б",) and has no meaning or application here. I didn't say anything -- Trick trolled the thread by asking me if I was involved in crimes, and I said no. What did you expect, now he is bringing up an old German proverb? Bravo Trick, class A trolling.

Look around -- The teaching is right in front of your eyes -- it is not necessarily that the applications are not being taught or that no response is being provided, it is that those with low morals cannot see it, they will not allow themselves to see it.

Let's close this off with a look at the standard commentary.

1. Wang bi ​

Wang Bi (王弼, 226–249 CE), one of the earliest and most influential commentators, emphasized the ineffability of the Tao. He wrote:

"The Tao cannot be grasped through words. Those who truly understand it recognize that language is inadequate, so they remain silent. Those who speak excessively are often those who lack true understanding."

2. He Shao (何劭, 3rd century CE)​

"A sage who governs does not boast of his knowledge. Instead, he nurtures the people with quiet wisdom and non-interference. Those who speak too much and claim to know everything are often deceiving themselves."

3. Heshang Gong (河上公, circa 2nd century CE), whose commentary is deeply mystical, explained:​

"To 'seal the openings' means to guard against excessive desires. To 'blunt the sharpness' means to let go of arrogance. To 'untie the knots' means to free oneself from attachments. The sage, through these actions, becomes one with the Tao."


Therefore the statement "he who knows does not talk, he who talks does not know" does not apply to online discussions. For example, to criticize this post as being 'excessive' would be to say that Wang Bi's words above have no value, or to insinuate that there was no reason to write down the tao te ching in the first place.

This seems like a really wordy response that doesn't really convey much. You've quoted a lot of sources about the tao...but to what end? The short saying "he who knows does not talk, he who talks does not know" seems to have a direct meaning. Surely (like most sayings) it's meant to be more nuanced than the saying, itself, but making a long post about philosophy doesn't seem to clarify the point.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Many CMA teachers only teach form but don't teach application. One of CMC's students told me that CMC charged $4,000 to learn his Taiji form (no application). CMC then charged $4,000 to fix/correct that Taiji form (still no application).

A: Why do you teach form without teaching application?
B: I don't want my student to learn how to fight.
A: If you don't want your student to learn how to fight, why do you even teach them?
B: MA is more than just for fighting. MA can be used for self-cultivation, inner peace, meditation, health, performance, culture study, be a better person, world peace, ...
A: ...

What are you going to do with those kind of MA teachers? Are those MA teachers trying to promote MA, or trying to destroy MA?

I'm reading a book about a CMA teacher (in US) who communicated with his CMA teacher in Taiwan in the past 15 years. His teacher had forbidden him to teach any application to his US students. His teacher gave him 3 requirements:

1. Only teach form. Don't teach application.
2. If a student makes mistake in that form, don't correct that student.
3. Modify the form to be easy of learning even if it may lose the original meaning.

No matter how much money you may pay to this kind of MA teachers, they just won't teach you the real thing. I just can't have any respect to this kind of MA teachers no matter how good their MA skill may be.

Here is a copy form that book (in Chinese) to prove that stupid thing like this do exist in our world. This may only happen in Chinese MA and doesn't happen in Karate.

What's your opinion on this?

View attachment 32808

There are benefits to training without application. Not all students intend to fight or defend themselves. The original myth regarding kung-fu begins with monks being taught to improve their overall health and strength for meditation.

Tai chi is often taught to those with no aim of fighting and continues to serve people throughout China and the rest of the world. You can also see examples of non-contact boxing being used in various way to keep people fit and healthy which benefits them greatly.

There will always be clubs that attract those who wish to learn the fighting arts, just as there will always be those who enjoy learning the forms and exercises with no desire whatsoever to learn the fighting methods. The martial arts will never fade into obscurity or lose their fighting style - there are too many instructors and students who enjoy sparring and fighting in competitions.

Karate has also been used and taught in non-contact settings such as gyms and health centers for those who wish to keep themselves fit and healthy. Combat fitness classes are also big in gyms, as are MMA-styled training classes and bootcamps.

 

[windwalker099]

What is written in Tao Te Ching chapter 56 refers to the dao, and is highly remeniscient of the phrase "the dao that can be told is not the true dao". The meaning of this chapter is usually taken as meditative advice when contemplating the dao, to not try to put it into words or understand it directly.

Second, this Chinese turn of phrase is not at all unique to daoism and appears in Confucianism, Buddhism, and general Chinese literature:

"To change oneself is to save oneself, to influence others is to save others". This grammar is poetic, not literal.

• "To control others is strength, to control oneself is true power." (Laozi, Chapter 33)
• "The soft overcomes the hard, the weak overcomes the strong." (Laozi, Chapter 78)
• "When the great Way is lost, there is benevolence; when benevolence is lost, there is righteousness." (Laozi, Chapter 38)
• "The more laws there are, the more thieves there will be." (Laozi, Chapter 57)
• "To see what is right and not do it is to lack courage." (Confucius, Analects 2.24)
• "A gentleman is calm and at ease; a petty person is always anxious and worried." (Analects 7.36)
• "The superior man seeks within; the inferior man seeks without." (Analects 15.20)

Forgetting not, that Laozi was a confucian scholar, the head of the the emperor's court library.

Also in Buddhism:

• "To gain is to lose; to lose is to gain."
• "The mind makes the world; the world makes the mind."
• "Sitting quietly, doing nothing, spring comes, and the grass grows by itself."

some others

• "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." (Laozi, Chapter 64)
• "Dripping water pierces stone, not by force but by persistence."
• "To know the road ahead, ask those who have traveled it."

What is going on here is not something you can just pick up and throw at people you disagree with, that just reveals your misunderstanding over what the phrase actually means. These are not hard dichotomies. They are poetic comparisons made to show a point. They do not actually apply in a black and white fashion.

As for "He who says A must say B" this is a German proverb („Wer A sagt, muss auch B sagen.“) that likely originates from Russian *("Сказал А, говори Б",) and has no meaning or application here. I didn't say anything -- Trick trolled the thread by asking me if I was involved in crimes, and I said no. What did you expect, now he is bringing up an old German proverb? Bravo Trick, class A trolling.

Look around -- The teaching is right in front of your eyes -- it is not necessarily that the applications are not being taught or that no response is being provided, it is that those with low morals cannot see it, they will not allow themselves to see it.

Let's close this off with a look at the standard commentary.

1. Wang bi ​

Wang Bi (王弼, 226–249 CE), one of the earliest and most influential commentators, emphasized the ineffability of the Tao. He wrote:

"The Tao cannot be grasped through words. Those who truly understand it recognize that language is inadequate, so they remain silent. Those who speak excessively are often those who lack true understanding."

2. He Shao (何劭, 3rd century CE)​

"A sage who governs does not boast of his knowledge. Instead, he nurtures the people with quiet wisdom and non-interference. Those who speak too much and claim to know everything are often deceiving themselves."

3. Heshang Gong (河上公, circa 2nd century CE), whose commentary is deeply mystical, explained:​

"To 'seal the openings' means to guard against excessive desires. To 'blunt the sharpness' means to let go of arrogance. To 'untie the knots' means to free oneself from attachments. The sage, through these actions, becomes one with the Tao."


Therefore the statement "he who knows does not talk, he who talks does not know" does not apply to online discussions. For example, to criticize this post as being 'excessive' would be to say that Wang Bi's words above have no value, or to insinuate that there was no reason to write down the tao te ching in the first place.

If we all apply your logic here, there will be no online discussion. All our forum members here belong to "Those who speak do not know".

Would not agree, nor would I classify them as such

In online forums, the loudest voices aren’t always the most knowledgeable. Often, those with the most expertise speak less, but when they do, their words carry weight.

You don't understand what lao tzu said, so how can you disagree?

My post was a disagreement with KFW's characterization of my post.
Your post was "what I meant" "Those who speak do not know"

good example,

thank you

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Tai chi is often taught to those with no aim of fighting and continues to serve people throughout China and the rest of the world.

I taught Taiji class to a group of old people (over 60). I always taught them form along with application. One guy said, "Do you expect us to fight in our age?" I said, "Application is the guideline for a correct form. Without the application guide line, the Taiji form can be evolved beyond recognized."

For example. when you do the Taiji "double pulling", Should your

1. both palms face down?
2. both palms face up?
3. left palm face down while the right palm face up?
4. right palm face down while the left palm face up?

When you use "double pulling", there is only 1 correct way to do it.

Also, when you use "double pulling", should your weight be

- on your leading leg (you want to pull yourself into your opponent)?
- on your back leg (you want to pull your opponent into you)?

Without understanding the application, how do you know which way is the right way?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This seems like a really wordy response that doesn't really convey much.

I agree! Waste a lot of words without saying anything.

I truly hate this kind of logic, "To gain is to lose; to lose is to gain." By using this logic, I can come up with:

- To be rich is to be poor; to be poor is to be rich.
- To be good is to be bad; to be bad is to be good.
- To be honest is to cheat; to cheat is to be honest.
- To love is to hate; to hate is to love.
- To save is to kill; to kill is to save.
- To go to heaven is to go to hell; to go to hell is to go to heaven.
- ...

 

[windwalker099]

I taught Taiji class to a group of old people (over 60). I always taught them form along with application. One guy said, "Do you expect us to fight in our age?" I said, "Application is the guideline for a correct form. Without the application guide line, the Taiji form can be evolved beyond recognized."

once taught Taiji to a group of seniors when I was younger, near an Army base where I was stationed in Oklahoma.
The first day, 25 people showed up. The next week, only 10 remained. By the third week, no one came— just me.

lesson learned : to be commercially successful, you have to teach based on what people can do and what they expect—not just what they need to learn.

I’ve condensed my practice somewhat. The health and wellness aspects that some focus on aren’t part of my approach.
For those seeking that, I always recommend others who specialize in it.

To be clear, I work with others, helping them to understand what they already know.
do not teach

Wang Yongquan, a prominent Yang-style Taijiquan master, outlined his approach

"When practicing Tai Chi, you must first determine the correct purpose according to your
age, physique, personality, environment and the development of your practice. Elderly
people practice boxing to prolong their life, while young people seek combat."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

once taught Taiji to a group of seniors when I was younger, near an Army base where I was stationed in Oklahoma.
The first day, 25 people showed up. The next week, only 10 remained. By the third week, no one came— just me.

Once taught a Taiji class in Austin Community Colledge. During the 1st class, I taught 8 basic stances used in Taiji. A guy said, "This is not Taiji". He then left and I haven't seen him since then.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

"When practicing Tai Chi, you must first determine the correct purpose according to your
age, physique, personality, environment and the development of your practice. Elderly
people practice boxing to prolong their life, while young people seek combat."

Knowing the kind of students you wish teach is an important lesson for any martial artist. This is especially important if you plan to earn a living from your teachings. It is entirely possible to make the error of trying to pass on your passion to the wrong group of people. Not everyone needs to know the fighting applications. As mentioned earlier, non-contact boxing can benefit people on many levels and the same applies to TMAs - it's horses for courses as they say

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Elderly people practice boxing to prolong their life, ...

When I walk, I like to do the following punching combos:

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
- right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook, right uppercut, left uppercut.
- right uppercut, left hook, right hook, left uppercut, right jab, left cross.
- right overhand, right vertical back fist, left overhand, left vertical back fist, right overhand, right horizontal back fist, left cross, right jab.
- ...

I drill each combo 20 times before going to the next combo.

Punching combos are good for maintaining health (if you have knee problem from kicking).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

non-contact boxing can benefit people on many levels and the same applies to TMAs ...

Here is the concern. Assume you have trained many different throws.

If you understand application, you can link throws in meaningful ways.

For health, you can link throws anyway that you may like. Some combos may not make any sense. One day you teach those combos to others, and they pass it down to the next generation, those "doesn't make sense combos" will have serious application problem.

 

[Shotlandets]

Many CMA teachers only teach form but don't teach application. One of CMC's students told me that CMC charged $4,000 to learn his Taiji form (no application). CMC then charged $4,000 to fix/correct that Taiji form (still no application).

A: Why do you teach form without teaching application?
B: I don't want my student to learn how to fight.
A: If you don't want your student to learn how to fight, why do you even teach them?
B: MA is more than just for fighting. MA can be used for self-cultivation, inner peace, meditation, health, performance, culture study, be a better person, world peace, ...
A: ...

What are you going to do with those kind of MA teachers? Are those MA teachers trying to promote MA, or trying to destroy MA?

I'm reading a book about a CMA teacher (in US) who communicated with his CMA teacher in Taiwan in the past 15 years. His teacher had forbidden him to teach any application to his US students. His teacher gave him 3 requirements:

1. Only teach form. Don't teach application.
2. If a student makes mistake in that form, don't correct that student.
3. Modify the form to be easy of learning even if it may lose the original meaning.

No matter how much money you may pay to this kind of MA teachers, they just won't teach you the real thing. I just can't have any respect to this kind of MA teachers no matter how good their MA skill may be.

Here is a copy form that book (in Chinese) to prove that stupid thing like this do exist in our world. This may only happen in Chinese MA and doesn't happen in Karate.

What's your opinion on this?

View attachment 32808

I always show applications.
Learn the 4 forms of a Kata. Start with heian shodan.
Use ippon kumite learn distance, timing, kime and moving with hara
Defend with gedan barai+gyaku zuki
Shuto age uke + age uke+ gyaku zuki
Shuto uke + shuto uche(change legs on the spot)
Then advance to same in different directions.
Use the same in reverse(ura) directions of the kata.
It takes about 10 sessions to be competent.
Distance and timing is most important (from ippon kumite)
First 5 sessions slowly.
The rest fast.
Biggest problem is people only wanting to learn the next grading syllabus.
It can be spread out over 6 months.
The level of karate in the dojo will skyrocket.
Always practice 4 forms of the katas throughout the year.

 

[windwalker099]

Not everyone needs to know the fighting applications. As mentioned earlier, non-contact boxing can benefit people on many levels and the same applies to TMAs - it's horses for courses as they say

While I agree, in my experience, some people I’ve met use combat or boxing—however one terms it—as the context for what they teach. Yet, when called upon to demonstrate, they cannot apply what they talk about, often saying their practice isn’t actually based on combat.

If that’s the case, why teach Taiji? Why not focus on moving Qigong or something similar instead?

Not an issue for me personally. It only comes up in interacting with some who teach taiji, when working them. They cannot move beyond their own practice. It works both ways...For others unable to really "fan song" A little difficult depending on what and how long they've practiced.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Here is the concern. Assume you have trained many different throws.

If you understand application, you can link throws in meaningful ways.

For health, you can link throws anyway that you may like. Some combos may not make any sense. One day you teach those combos to others, and they pass it down to the next generation, those "doesn't make sense combos" will have serious application problem.

If the training is not devised for fighting then it will not be used in application. The scenario of which you speak is not something to be concerned about. For health purposes the throws will continue to work. Remember this class was not devised for fighting. Unless of course the people in your imaginary example are claiming to teach an effective martial art???

 

[Taiji Rebel]

While I agree, in my experience, some people I’ve met use combat or boxing—however one terms it—as the context for what they teach. Yet, when called upon to demonstrate, they cannot apply what they talk about, often saying their practice isn’t actually based on combat.

If that’s the case, why teach Taiji? Why not focus on moving Qigong or something similar instead?

Not an issue for me personally. It only comes up in interacting with some who teach taiji, i work with but cannot to move beyond their own practice. A little difficult depending on what and how long they've practiced.

Some teachers have no idea when it comes to fighting. This can be seen in lots of martial arts clubs. There are instructors who can go through the motions and appear to know the applications. It doesn't mean they can actually apply the techniques in reality though. My examples of non-contact, or application-free training, were relating more to the students not needing to know rather than the instructor being clueless in regards to the fighting applications of their practice.