Some MA teachers only teach form without application?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many CMA teachers only teach form but don't teach application. One of CMC's students told me that CMC charged $4,000 to learn his Taiji form (no application). CMC then charged $4,000 to fix/correct that Taiji form (still no application).

A: Why do you teach form without teaching application?
B: I don't want my student to learn how to fight.
A: If you don't want your student to learn how to fight, why do you even teach them?
B: MA is more than just for fighting. MA can be used for self-cultivation, inner peace, meditation, health, performance, culture study, be a better person, world peace, ...
A: ...

What are you going to do with those kind of MA teachers? Are those MA teachers trying to promote MA, or trying to destroy MA?

I'm reading a book about a CMA teacher (in US) who communicated with his CMA teacher in Taiwan in the past 15 years. His teacher had forbidden him to teach any application to his US students. His teacher gave him 3 requirements:

1. Only teach form. Don't teach application.
2. If a student makes mistake in that form, don't correct that student.
3. Modify the form to be easy of learning even if it may lose the original meaning.

No matter how much money you may pay to this kind of MA teachers, they just won't teach you the real thing. I just can't have any respect to this kind of MA teachers no matter how good their MA skill may be.

Here is a copy form that book (in Chinese) to prove that stupid thing like this do exist in our world. This may only happen in Chinese MA and doesn't happen in Karate.

What's your opinion on this?

 

[Holmejr]

Well if they advertise as a non violent non combative form of MA then it’s okay. But if they present the art as self defense then it’s rather misleading.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting take on self cultivation. By a guy who teaches combat sports to military vets for specifically that reason.

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[Kung Fu Wang]

Well if they advertise as a non violent non combative form of MA then it’s okay. But if they present the art as self defense then it’s rather misleading.

What will this "non violent non combative form of MA" turn into 100 years from today? Is this what we like to see as the MA future? Should we try to stop this from happening? How?

Today, MMA guys criticize that TMA guys can't fight. This kind of TMA teachers can only make this situation worse.

 

[drop bear]

What will this "non violent non combative form of MA" turn into 100 years from today? Is this what we like to see as the MA future? Should we try to stop this from happening? How?

Today, MMA guys criticize that TMA guys can't fight. This kind of TMA teachers can only make this situation worse.

Only worse if you need it to fight someone.

Let's use hobby horse jumping as an example.

If you needed to get better at horse riding it is functionality useless.

But if you do it for its own sake it is as valid.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting take on self cultivation. By a guy who teaches combat sports to military vets for specifically that reason.

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Can't edit.

Anyway my point is here that people seem to think personal development is somehow separate from functional martial arts. As if that is the reason you don't do it.

But functional martial arts demonstratively includes personal development. And there is no evidence that it doesn't do it every bit as well as any other method.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As a TMA lover, when we see this kind of TMA teachers, what kind of attitude should we have?

1. Encourage it?
2. Criticize it?
3. Don't care?

When I read that book, it made me mad big time. I don't care how good TMA skill that one may have. If he wants just to keep it for himself and not willing to pass down to the next generation, that person is a TMA destroyer by my definition.

Unfortunately, many TMA masters fall into this category. Those TMA masters might be good fighters themselves. But they could not produce any good fighters.

I believe if one is not willing to teach MA application, that person should not teach.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A: Why don't you teach MA application to your students?
B: I don't want my students to learn how to fight. If they get into a fight and hurt someone, that will be bad for my reputation.
A: What if your students get hurt in a fight? Will that be bad for your reputation?
B: ...

If you get hurt in a fight, can you sue your MA teacher who didn't teach you MA application? Should your MA teacher refund your tuition?

 

[Same Trick]

Many CMA teachers only teach form but don't teach application. One of CMC's students told me that CMC charged $4,000 to learn his Taiji form (no application). CMC then charged $4,000 to fix/correct that Taiji form (still no application).

A hefty sum, isn’t it said that many of his NY students where the hippie kind of types ?, I’ll guess only the rich kids could afford that kind of lifestyle.
Anyway, wasnt ZMQ with his pupils heavy into pushhands ? That’s kind of Taiji application practice .

 

[windwalker099]

Many CMA teachers only teach form but don't teach application. One of CMC's students told me that CMC charged $4,000 to learn his Taiji form (no application). CMC then charged $4,000 to fix/correct that Taiji form (still no application).

Interesting.

$8,000, Sounds like it might have been privet lessons.
Who ever the student was, knew what they were paying for, and felt it was worth it.
Was this student in the U.S. or Taiwan?

@Same Trick

I studied under two people in the U.S. who trained directly under Zheng Manqing (ZMC) in Taiwan.

One ran a public commercial gym, with prices in line with others in the area.
The other never asked for anything in return for his teaching.
Focus on the "form" common among principle-based practices.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Was this student in the U.S. or Taiwan?

The student came from NYC. He was a student of the Univ. of Texas in Austin. He joined in my UT Kung Fu informal class. His name was Bruce (I forget his last name).

 

[marvin8]

The student came from NYC. He was a student of the Univ. of Texas in Austin. He joined in my UT Kung Fu informal class. His name was Bruce (I forget his last name).

Charging fees for "advanced" CMA forms...

 

[Same Trick]

@Same Trick

I studied under two people in the U.S. who trained directly under Zheng Manqing (ZMC) in Taiwan.

One ran a public commercial gym, with prices in line with others in the area.
The other never asked for anything in return for his teaching.
Focus on the "form" common among principle-based practices.

As Chinese custom, one of course give a sum one feels is right placed in an envelope that one casually hand to the teacher, gifts and dinners out to be added . I’ve learned tremendously much

 

[Teapot]

If students feel like they are being scammed by this, I can't feel much pity for them.

One of the things to look out for when finding a teacher is to ask: "Is this teacher producing skilled students?"

If the answer is no, then why should one think they will somehow be an exception to this?


I know someone who was a big fan of a certain Tai Chi teacher and paid money to learn online.

I asked him: "Does this teacher have any students you think are skilled?"

He said no.

Then I said: "However skilled you may think the teacher is - if you acknowledge that he hasn't produced skilled students, he doesn't sound useful to learn from him."

 

[drop bear]

I instinctively thought the practise was dodgy. But then people pay for seminars.

And i am not sure the difference.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Does this teacher have any students you think are skilled?"

People may have different definition of "skilled student".

A student who

- can fight.
- has good foundation.

If a student's right foot can kick his own left ear, is he a skilled student?

 

[Teapot]

People may have different definition of "skilled student".

A student who

- can fight.
- has good foundation.

If a student's right foot can kick his own left ear, is he a skilled student?

That's perfectly fine.

In my argument, I would define it with the question: "Do you think the student's skills resemble the skills of the teacher you're trying to learn from?"

Is bringing the right foot to your ear a skill that 1) the teacher has and 2) is part of the curriculum and what is taught?

Of course, people will have different definitions of "skilled teacher", but my argument doesn't care what they think is skilled. My argument merely addresses whether the things you want to learn from the teacher are being transferred to existing students.

Of course, if the teacher does not show any skills whatsoever for you to base on, then that's also kind of the students' fault for having zero evidence to support any big expectations.

If a teacher shows zero applications in any context whatsoever (and it's being taught as martial art), then one should ask: Does he even know any applications?

Because there are teachers who don't know many applications, and if a student asks what the application is for a move, his response might be: "Oh! You're not ready for that yet."

But it turns out none of these students are ready and will never be ready for it.

If the teachers wanted to avoid showing applications, the clever ones would show the basic, low-hanging fruit applications and keep the good applications to themselves.

I know practitioners who try to do an exercise/drill to replicate a teacher's skills. Plot Twist: it has been decades for them to chase after it. And they still can't do it.

If that is not blatant evidence that the exercise/drill they are training does not work, I don't know what is. The data is obvious. If this was a scientific experiment with all these participants, you would naturally conclude that there is no evidence that this training is producing results.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Only worse if you need it to fight someone.

Let's use hobby horse jumping as an example.

If you needed to get better at horse riding it is functionality useless.

But if you do it for its own sake it is as valid.

There are very few things that I don't know how to respond to. This is one of them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Only worse if you need it to fight someone.

Let's use hobby horse jumping as an example.

If you needed to get better at horse riding it is functionality useless.

But if you do it for its own sake it is as valid.

It's very similar if you compare "MA form training without application" with "wooden horse riding".

Both can give you

- health,
- inner peace,
- fun,
- self-cultivation (?)
- be a better person (?),
- world peace.

That's exactly the argument used for those MA teachers who teach MA form only without application.

I know that I don't belong to the mainstream. In the past 20 years, I only taught application without form. I told all my students, when you guys get old, you can come to me, and I'll teach you all my forms. When you are still young, I want you guys to compete in tournament and accumulate your MA experience.

 

[drop bear]

It's very similar if you compare "MA form training without application" with "wooden horse riding".

Both can give you

- health,
- inner peace,
- fun,
- self-cultivation (?)
- be a better person (?),
- world peace.

That's exactly the argument used for those MA teachers who teach MA form only without application.

I know that I don't belong to the mainstream. In the past 20 years, I only taught application without form. I told all my students, when you guys get old, you can come to me, and I'll teach you all my forms. When you are still young, I want you guys to compete in tournament and accumulate your MA experience.

The only issue i have is where the idea that is tacitly implied is non application is some sort of better route to self development.