Some MA teachers only teach form without application?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many CMA teachers only teach form but don't teach application. One of CMC's students told me that CMC charged $4,000 to learn his Taiji form (no application). CMC then charged $4,000 to fix/correct that Taiji form (still no application).

A: Why do you teach form without teaching application?
B: I don't want my student to learn how to fight.
A: If you don't want your student to learn how to fight, why do you even teach them?
B: MA is more than just for fighting. MA can be used for self-cultivation, inner peace, meditation, health, performance, culture study, be a better person, world peace, ...
A: ...

What are you going to do with those kind of MA teachers? Are those MA teachers trying to promote MA, or trying to destroy MA?

I'm reading a book about a CMA teacher (in US) who communicated with his CMA teacher in Taiwan in the past 15 years. His teacher had forbidden him to teach any application to his US students. His teacher gave him 3 requirements:

1. Only teach form. Don't teach application.
2. If a student makes mistake in that form, don't correct that student.
3. Modify the form to be easy of learning even if it may lose the original meaning.

No matter how much money you may pay to this kind of MA teachers, they just won't teach you the real thing. I just can't have any respect to this kind of MA teachers no matter how good their MA skill may be.

Here is a copy form that book (in Chinese) to prove that stupid thing like this do exist in our world. This may only happen in Chinese MA and doesn't happen in Karate.

What's your opinion on this?

 

[Holmejr]

Well if they advertise as a non violent non combative form of MA then it’s okay. But if they present the art as self defense then it’s rather misleading.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting take on self cultivation. By a guy who teaches combat sports to military vets for specifically that reason.

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[Kung Fu Wang]

Well if they advertise as a non violent non combative form of MA then it’s okay. But if they present the art as self defense then it’s rather misleading.

What will this "non violent non combative form of MA" turn into 100 years from today? Is this what we like to see as the MA future? Should we try to stop this from happening? How?

Today, MMA guys criticize that TMA guys can't fight. This kind of TMA teachers can only make this situation worse.

 

[drop bear]

What will this "non violent non combative form of MA" turn into 100 years from today? Is this what we like to see as the MA future? Should we try to stop this from happening? How?

Today, MMA guys criticize that TMA guys can't fight. This kind of TMA teachers can only make this situation worse.

Only worse if you need it to fight someone.

Let's use hobby horse jumping as an example.

If you needed to get better at horse riding it is functionality useless.

But if you do it for its own sake it is as valid.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting take on self cultivation. By a guy who teaches combat sports to military vets for specifically that reason.

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Can't edit.

Anyway my point is here that people seem to think personal development is somehow separate from functional martial arts. As if that is the reason you don't do it.

But functional martial arts demonstratively includes personal development. And there is no evidence that it doesn't do it every bit as well as any other method.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As a TMA lover, when we see this kind of TMA teachers, what kind of attitude should we have?

1. Encourage it?
2. Criticize it?
3. Don't care?

When I read that book, it made me mad big time. I don't care how good TMA skill that one may have. If he wants just to keep it for himself and not willing to pass down to the next generation, that person is a TMA destroyer by my definition.

Unfortunately, many TMA masters fall into this category. Those TMA masters might be good fighters themselves. But they could not produce any good fighters.

I believe if one is not willing to teach MA application, that person should not teach.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A: Why don't you teach MA application to your students?
B: I don't want my students to learn how to fight. If they get into a fight and hurt someone, that will be bad for my reputation.
A: What if your students get hurt in a fight? Will that be bad for your reputation?
B: ...

If you get hurt in a fight, can you sue your MA teacher who didn't teach you MA application? Should your MA teacher refund your tuition?

 

[Same Trick]

Many CMA teachers only teach form but don't teach application. One of CMC's students told me that CMC charged $4,000 to learn his Taiji form (no application). CMC then charged $4,000 to fix/correct that Taiji form (still no application).

A hefty sum, isn’t it said that many of his NY students where the hippie kind of types ?, I’ll guess only the rich kids could afford that kind of lifestyle.
Anyway, wasnt ZMQ with his pupils heavy into pushhands ? That’s kind of Taiji application practice .

 

[windwalker099]

Many CMA teachers only teach form but don't teach application. One of CMC's students told me that CMC charged $4,000 to learn his Taiji form (no application). CMC then charged $4,000 to fix/correct that Taiji form (still no application).

Interesting.

$8,000, Sounds like it might have been privet lessons.
Who ever the student was, knew what they were paying for, and felt it was worth it.
Was this student in the U.S. or Taiwan?

@Same Trick

I studied under two people in the U.S. who trained directly under Zheng Manqing (ZMC) in Taiwan.

One ran a public commercial gym, with prices in line with others in the area.
The other never asked for anything in return for his teaching.
Focus on the "form" common among principle-based practices.