Hard/Soft?

[SFC JeffJ]

It's in human nature to catagorize things. Just look at all the genres and sub genres in novels. For the most part, it's a good thing. Helps us keep the world around us and what's in our brain more or less organized. In the Martial Arts, techniques often get put into one of two catagories. Hard (striking) and Soft (grappling and throwing). Now I certainly don't think I've had any ground breaking revalation here, but it seems to me that's a little too simplistic. Not that there isn't both hard and soft techniques, but how they are catagorized. For me, it's become a matter not of technique, but of intent. You can have a "soft" strike, where the primary goal of the strike is not to injure your opponent, but to distract or reposition. Likewise, you can have a "hard" joint lock, not for control, but for destruction of the joint.

Like I said, I don't think I've come up with a new idea here, but I've been doing a lot of reading and have yet to find anyone who's said it.
Is it something that you are just supposed to figure out on your own? Could it be (gasp!!) that I'm growing as a martial artist and am coming to a better understanding of what I've been training in all these years?

OK, this has gotten too long. What are your thoughts?

Jeff

(edit for grammar and spelling)

 

[Flying Crane]

That has not generally been my understanding of the difference between hard and soft, but I think it is as valid a way of looking at it as any. I can see the sense in it, in the proper context, so why not?

 

[CuongNhuka]

I study Cuong Nhu, this is no secret. Cuong is Vietnamese for hard, nhu is soft. The reason is Cuong Nhu has both hard and soft techniques. Strikes can both hard and soft. Hard techniques tend to deal surface damage. I.E. bruises, cuts, and broken bones. Soft attacks deal internal damage. I.E. ruptured organs. Same with grappling. Locks and throws can be both hard and soft. Styles that use hard strikes (in Cuong Nhu): Boxing, Wing Chun, Shotokan, and Vovinam (?). Styles that use soft strikes (in Coung Nhu): Tai Chi, Wing Chun, and Vovinam (?). Cuong Nhu only has Aikido and Judo in it. Both are soft grappling styles. Jui – Jitsu and wrestling however are hard grappling styles.
Are you growing as a martial artist? Of course we all are, all the time. But it’s just a matter of how much it shows. I think that you are very advanced in your understanding of the martial arts. And the blue belt after such a short amount of time tells me that you have a desire to learn and grow more. Or that you have a lot of time on your hands (lol).

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[Xue Sheng]

That is not what hard and soft is defined as from a Chinese martial arts point of view, but I do not know what martial art you are basing this on. Chinese martial arts are divided into hard and soft styles, not individual techniques. A Qin na lock from Shaolin long fist is a Qin na lock from a hard style. A Qin na lock from Tai Chi is a Qin na lock from a soft style. It all has to do with were the energy comes from for the application and how you manifest that energy and how you use your thoughts to direct that energy.

But I can see you logic

 

[SFC JeffJ]

[SIZE=3 Or that you have a lot of time on your hands (lol).[/SIZE]

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

My job entails a lot of sitting around waiting for something to happen, lol.

Jeff

 

[SFC JeffJ]

That is not what hard and soft is defined as from a Chinese martial arts point of view, but I do not know what martial art you are basing this on. Chinese martial arts are divided into hard and soft styles, not individual techniques. A Qin na lock from Shaolin long fist is a Qin na lock from a hard style. A Qin na lock from Tai Chi is a Qin na lock from a soft style. It all has to do with were the energy comes from for the application and how you manifest that energy and how you use your thoughts to direct that energy.

But I can see you logic

I study Shiho Karano Kenpo Jitsu. It's always seemed to me the JMA catagorizes things in a more simple manner than the CMA.

Jeff

 

[Rich Parsons]

It's in human nature to catagorize things. Just look at all the genres and sub genres in novels. For the most part, it's a good thing. Helps us keep the world around us and what's in our brain more or less organized. In the Martial Arts, techniques often get put into one of two catagories. Hard (striking) and Soft (grappling and throwing). Now I certainly don't think I've had any ground breaking revalation here, but it seems to me that's a little too simplistic. Not that there isn't both hard and soft techniques, but how they are catagorized. For me, it's become a matter not of technique, but of intent. You can have a "soft" strike, where the primary goal of the strike is not to injure your opponent, but to distract or reposition. Likewise, you can have a "hard" joint lock, not for control, but for destruction of the joint.

Like I said, I don't think I've come up with a new idea here, but I've been doing a lot of reading and have yet to find anyone who's said it.
Is it something that you are just supposed to figure out on your own? Could it be (gasp!!) that I'm growing as a martial artist and am coming to a better understanding of what I've been training in all these years?

OK, this has gotten too long. What are your thoughts?

Jeff

(edit for grammar and spelling)

I have always looked at Hard and Soft a little differently.

If you block into the attack or the technique is force to force then it is a hard impact. Some people have tried to simplify this into linear, and I do not see it as that either. Just as I described.

If you use go with the force or 90 degree approach vector so there is no force to force impact then it is soft.

The result of the technique I agree depends upon the intent. You can hit softly or slap to get someone's attention or tell them to back off. You can also break a nose or rib. You can take control of someone and move them aside or out the door, or you can break a joint. You can place them on the floor and your can dump them on the floor.

None of this determines for me is it is hard or soft. That is determined by the initial contact and point of impact.

Yet I expect no one else to use my definitions.

 

[Kacey]

In the Martial Arts, techniques often get put into one of two catagories. Hard (striking) and Soft (grappling and throwing).

I tend to agree with Rich. The distinctions I learned had less to do with the power in the technique, and more to do with the method - although it does comeo out to striking and grappling/throwing, but not for the same reason you gave. Here's the way it was explained to me:

In hard (striking) styles, you use your own momentum against your opponent (kicking and punching).

In soft (grappling and throwing) styles, you use your opponent's momentum against your opponent (redirection through grabs and throws).

Both broad areas (hard and soft) have elements of both - it is the emphasis that is different. As a hard stylist (TKD), if someone attacks me, my first response will mostly likely be a strike (kick, punch, block designed to break the attacking tool); a soft stylist's first response would more likely be a redirection of some type (trip, throw, release, block designed to redirect). That doesn't mean that I don't know, and teach, soft-style techniques, nor does it mean that soft stylists don't know, and teach, hard-style techniques - but the emphasis in each art is different, and a practitioner will react most quickly and automatically with whatever s/he trains with the most.

So that's hard and soft styles. Hard and soft contact refer to how hard the contact is - how much force, and how deeply into the person the attack goes (or is intended to go). The use of these terms in the different contexts can be quite confusing.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Hard and soft...just terms use to discribe the difference of some arts. Not neccessary hard as stone and soft like pillow?

For us strike with a hard fist or kick, in the soft part of the body. Throws can be done gently or very hard slam.

Soft is usually more with the flowing arts( lot of Kung-fu styles here), Karate is usually consider a hard style. Goju-ru can be a combintion of both the hard and soft..plus many other styles too. Just my views and belief here. Yours may be different --Thank-you.

To brush away a punch...soft style...to block with forearm...hard style.

Speak softly and hit hard....best combintion to use.

Everyone will have there own interpretation, here? ..depends on where you from.....Me from this world. .........Aloha

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not neccessary hard as stone and soft like pillow

That sounds incredibly familiar.

But I agree with your description

Tai Chi is considered soft
Baguazhang is considered soft
Xingyiquan is considered hard/soft
White crane is considered hard/soft
Shaolin is considered hard
Tiger claw is considered hard.
ETC.

And by CMA standards just about all, if not all Japanese styles are considered hard styles

 

[FearlessFreep]

I ran into the same kinda disctinction when in a BJJ class I learned BJJ defenses/counters to attack in which I had already learned TKD defenses. The TKD would be 'hard' and the BJJ 'soft'. Even when 'striking' against a limb, the purpose was different. The strike in the BJJ defense was meant as a way of redirecting the limb, nothing more, in order to get past it into the body. The strike in TKD was done to damage/injure the limb. Even in as simple a thing as defelcting a punch, there as a softw way and a hard way to do it that seemed to stem from what you were trying to accomplish which was a result of the system you were coming from

 

[bushidomartialarts]

seems to me a continuum would be more useful here than a dichotomy. put aikido way on the right and old-school japanese karate-do way on the left. other arts will be sprinkled in between.

also, one can practice a 'hard' style using 'soft' methods, and vice versa....

 

[Wing Chun Dummy]

if you can get away with using only soft techniques / soft intent ... then surely that's best for you

 

[still learning]

if you can get away with using only soft techniques / soft intent ... then surely that's best for you

Well said here! .....Better to be hit with a soft ball than a skin ball. .Just kidding here.

But you are right on ....with soft intent.....we all need to practice and do this more................Aloha

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Wow!. All the different ideas are fascinating. Not only do different styles have different meanins of hard and soft, it seems to (rightly) be different for some individuals too. I think the reasons I make this distinction between hard and soft techniques is 1. My first arts where Shorin Ryu and Kyokishin, both very concerned with hitting your opponent hard. Very different from the Japanese Jujitsu I do now. 2.My instructor seems to make the distinction as well, maybe for the same reason I do. His first art and BB level rank was in TKD. Plus one of his favorite sayings is if attacked hard, respond soft, if attacked soft, respond hard. Buy hey, that's another kettle of fish.

Thanks for all the thoughful responses.

Jeff

 

[Koryuhoka]

I tend to agree with Xue Sheng. Hardness and softness are misinterpreted often in the MA. For instance, many people believe that Goju Ryu's concept is "blocking soft & hitting hard". This is a shallow interpretation of the name that was given to the art by it's founder, Maegusuku Chojun.

Originally the reference is from the "poem of the eight fists" the eight precepts... "the way of inhaling and exhaling is hardness and softness". Hokama Sensei said that the body and its extremities are "like bamboo". Paraphrasing: [The stalk is thick and strong at the base and yielding at the top]. Bamboo is hard yet soft, not hard AND soft. Hard Soft.

A punch can be executed with a tight fist but also, as in some internal Chinese arts and some Okinawan kata, there is a punch where the fingers are curled as in a fist but left hollow. This is said to be an "internal" punch.

The term "block" is also incorrectly interpreted. The term used is UKE (oo-kay). It does not mean "block", but "receive". The UKE is a two part technique consisting of a parry followed by what seems like a "block". If you analyse the movement it can become anything from a seize to a strike. The Goju Ryu "UKE" techniques epitomize the hard/soft concept.

There are hard qigong styles as well as soft. Yet most people associate qigong with "soft".

Whether hard or soft, one thing is for sure, the recipient has no problem categorizing. :erg:

K.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I tend to agree with Xue Sheng. Hardness and softness are misinterpreted often in the MA. For instance, many people believe that Goju Ryu's concept is "blocking soft & hitting hard". This is a shallow interpretation of the name that was given to the art by it's founder, Maegusuku Chojun.

Originally the reference is from the "poem of the eight fists" the eight precepts... "the way of inhaling and exhaling is hardness and softness". Hokama Sensei said that the body and its extremities are "like bamboo". Paraphrasing: [The stalk is thick and strong at the base and yielding at the top]. Bamboo is hard yet soft, not hard AND soft. Hard Soft.

A punch can be executed with a tight fist but also, as in some internal Chinese arts and some Okinawan kata, there is a punch where the fingers are curled as in a fist but left hollow. This is said to be an "internal" punch.

The term "block" is also incorrectly interpreted. The term used is UKE (oo-kay). It does not mean "block", but "receive". The UKE is a two part technique consisting of a parry followed by what seems like a "block". If you analyse the movement it can become anything from a seize to a strike. The Goju Ryu "UKE" techniques epitomize the hard/soft concept.

There are hard qigong styles as well as soft. Yet most people associate qigong with "soft".

Whether hard or soft, one thing is for sure, the recipient has no problem categorizing. :erg:

K.

Are you referring to the Uke Waza drills? I've just been introduced to them and are finding them fascinating. Could you name some of the Okinawan kata with that fist? Great post by the way. Glad I started this thread. Really giving me a lot of food for thought and changing the way I look at techniques.

Jeff

 

[Koryuhoka]

Hi Jeff...
The term “blocking” is used for what more correctly is Uke = receive. The Okinawan system of blocking is not the “I’ll bash my arm really hard against his attack to stop it” type. It is a technique that deflects and redirects the antagonists energy.

Jodan Uke = high level block, Chudan Uke = middle level block, Gedan Uke = low level block. So, Jodan Uke actually means High level receive. These are examples of what are called “blocks”.

Uke is also the attacker in two-man drill type training and demonstration of bunkai or technique application. (Bunkai actually means ‘to analyse&#8217 It refers to the person who will “receive” punishment for being antagonistic. The “more Okinawan” term is Ti Chi Ki. I don’t know the exact translation of this term but the first part “ti” is hand, as in “te”.

Here is an analogy: If you have a very long board, and try to break it with a hammerfist strike, it’s length makes it flexible and your fist crashing down on it might make it spring up and hit you back. If you place your hand on it and press until it gives, you minimize any risk to yourself.

The Okinawan Uke(block) is like this. It does not meet the attack in a crashing manner. It is a circle. On contact it rolls onto the attack. In “blocking”, arms crashing together will hurt you(the defender), as well. If the attacker has really strong arms you may be in a bit of trouble.

The Uke Waza you may be referring to is called Sandan gi. It is practiced by many Okinawan schools. It is useful for introducing partner training before beginning kumite.

As for the open fist, White Crane (Hakutsuru) practitioners do this and also Chen style Tai Chi utilizes this fist.

K.:asian:

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Thanks for the info. I'll have to look more into Goju Ryu. Sounds fascinating.

Jeff