Hard vs. Soft Training

[Kneevsface]

Well im a sempi for go ju jutsu an as the name states we go hard an soft. U cant make a sandwich with no bread. So both are as important as each other

 

[Xinglu]

You need to have some soft training to ingrain specific skill sets, internal work and then you need some hard training, external work to get some pressure testing in.

Sorry, I just need to say this:

<rant>Internal/External....
So many people misapply these terms.

&#20839;&#23478; Neijia: Internal MA (Taoist in Nature and influence, meaning it is native 100% to china)

&#22806;&#23478; Waijia: External MA (Not truly chinese, buddhist influence, meaning it is not 100% native to China)

External does not mean they don't use Qi... It means that they cultivate it using non-taoist principles. Shaolin gongfu uses qi as do all of the styles that spawned from them. All the Japanese arts use it.

Jujutsu, aikido, etc, while soft styles will still always be waijia or "external" by definition. Yet, just look at Xingyi... it LOOKS more like Karate then any "soft art", yet it is still neijia.

Internal and External were/are political terms.

Internal does not equate soft. External does not equate hard.

</rant>

lol Thank you all for your patience

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sorry, I just need to say this:

<rant>Internal/External....
So many people misapply these terms.

&#20839;&#23478; Neijia: Internal MA (Taoist in Nature and influence, meaning it is native 100% to china)

&#22806;&#23478; Waijia: External MA (Not truly chinese, buddhist influence, meaning it is not 100% native to China)

External does not mean they don't use Qi... It means that they cultivate it using non-taoist principles. Shaolin gongfu uses qi as do all of the styles that spawned from them. All the Japanese arts use it.

Jujutsu, aikido, etc, while soft styles will still always be waijia or "external" by definition. Yet, just look at Xingyi... it LOOKS more like Karate then any "soft art", yet it is still neijia.

Internal and External were/are political terms.

Internal does not equate soft. External does not equate hard.

</rant>

lol Thank you all for your patience

That is not anything about what I said!

 

[Xinglu]

That is not anything about what I said!

You were talking about using "external work" to pressure test "soft" training. It made me wonder what political/regional/philosophical influences had to do with pressure testing. That's all

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey no sweat! I probably should not even have put them up there as I added them in after putting in the soft and hard just to round the sentence out.

 

[MJS]

Well, first of all, the bujinkan is essentially a for-profit cult and what they do is called LARPing. The bujinkan is a joke to real martial artists.

Well, as I said in my OP, the idea came from a Bujinkan thread on another forum, but I also said that any art could be inserted. Lets not turn this into a Buj bash fest ok?

MMA fighters train "hard" because they want to win real fights. You play like you practice.

"Soft" training is a disgrace to real martial arts because it doesn't prepare one for a real life situation. It only gives a false sense of confidence and can end up getting one hurt and embarassed if they depend on it in a real fight.
It is a good way to identify McDojos, though.

I'll agree with part of this, and disagree with the other part. Yes, I do feel that hard training is important, for the reasons that I, and others have listed. The soft part can still be done, to take a break, so to speak, from the hard training. I'll use my sparring example again...there are days when I gear up, and fight hard. Other days, my focus will be different. Perhaps I'll want to work on something specific, really getting the finepoints, so the sparring will be more drilling, with lighter contact. IMO, theres nothing wrong with that. I"d also go so far to say that a good portion of the BJJ schools that I've seen, do the same thing. They don't learn a tech. and jump right in with the full resistance, all out sparring. They ease into it, gradually adding in the pressure, aliveness, resistance, etc.

 

[MJS]

I'm not sure that you and I are on the same page when speaking about HARD and SOFT. I train my neijia (soft arts) as I train my kenpo or CLF. We hit each-other, we spar, we train techniques/applications at the same speed as any other MA. Blindsage already spoke to this. So I'm not sure I understand.

What exactly do you mean by "hard training" and what do you mean by "soft training?"

To me when I hear soft, I think of rapid, fluid, fajin is not readily apparent in all movements (though it is there) to the untrained observer, it avoids direct interception techniques in favor of checking, avoiding, enveloping, redirecting, trapping, etc.

When I think of hard, I think of intercepting techniques, fajin is readily apparent in all movements, attempts to damage opponent with every block, heavy on strikes, prefers to advance then to move any other direction.

Of course these are generalizations and they can change from art to art but they are what pops to the front of my mind when I hear these terms.

Training is training what you do should have purpose... so I'm not really sure what you mean by hard vs soft training.

Sorry, didn't mean to neglect this thread or reply.

Hard training: Hard contact all the time. Things are done fast and hard. During sparring, heavy contact is made. During self defense, when that punch is coming, you better move, otherwise you're going to get hit in the face.

Soft training: Little/light to no contact.

The reason why I feel that both are important: IMO, if the goal is SD, then I feel that the student should be used to contact. I doubt the guy trying to attack you on the street is going to tap you like a fly. But at the same time, it does take a toll on your body. Many of us don't fight for a living. We have 40 or more hour a week jobs, need to go to them, and can't afford to be out with injury. So, many times, when I do my sparring or my techs., the contact will be there, but it will be light. I use this training, when I want to focus on something specific or really work on a fine point. Ex: I'll do thru some kata very slow, stopping after each move, making sure that my stances are correct, making sure that the strikes are correct and to the correct areas. This, IMO, helps with the muscle memory. You're body gets used to doing something, used to moving in the correct way, so when you pick up the pace, hopefully, it'll be second nature.

Hope that answered your questions.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry, didn't mean to neglect this thread or reply.

Hard training: Hard contact all the time. Things are done fast and hard. During sparring, heavy contact is made. During self defense, when that punch is coming, you better move, otherwise you're going to get hit in the face.

Soft training: Little/light to no contact.

The reason why I feel that both are important: IMO, if the goal is SD, then I feel that the student should be used to contact. I doubt the guy trying to attack you on the street is going to tap you like a fly. But at the same time, it does take a toll on your body. Many of us don't fight for a living. We have 40 or more hour a week jobs, need to go to them, and can't afford to be out with injury. So, many times, when I do my sparring or my techs., the contact will be there, but it will be light. I use this training, when I want to focus on something specific or really work on a fine point. Ex: I'll do thru some kata very slow, stopping after each move, making sure that my stances are correct, making sure that the strikes are correct and to the correct areas. This, IMO, helps with the muscle memory. You're body gets used to doing something, used to moving in the correct way, so when you pick up the pace, hopefully, it'll be second nature.

Hope that answered your questions.

I think we are getting hung up in the difference between what you are defining as soft and hard and what people like Xinglu and myself that train CMA define as soft and hard.

CMA is big on Waijia and Neijia, internal and external, soft and hard and although Xinglu did properly define Waijia and Neijia many do not understand what it really is and there are multiple (reputable) sources telling you it is something else. Internal and External can also be defined as soft and hard but that is not necessarily always the case.

And all CMA style, as Xinglu has already said, train internal and external it is just some go about it differently and as the old saying goes "Internal goes to external and external goes to internal.

But to be honest this whole division between internal and external was really no big deal, even in China, prior to the Qing Dynasty. Basically it appears more as a protest against the Qing (Manchu and external to China) than a real division of styles and here is the kicker is was not first applied to Taiji, Bagua, Liu He Ba Fa or Xingyi. It was applied to the martial arts of Wang Zhengnan which I do not believe anyone really knows what that was.

But regardless CMA is big on balance and internal and external, soft and hard, Yin and Yang are necessary otherwise you end up unhealthy.. very unhealthy in the end

Sorry for the derailment now back to the post

 

[The Last Legionary]

Well, first of all, the bujinkan is essentially a for-profit cult and what they do is called LARPing. The bujinkan is a joke to real martial artists.

MMA fighters train "hard" because they want to win real fights. You play like you practice.

"Soft" training is a disgrace to real martial arts because it doesn't prepare one for a real life situation. It only gives a false sense of confidence and can end up getting one hurt and embarassed if they depend on it in a real fight.
It is a good way to identify McDojos, though.

So, MMA fighters regularly practice against knife, gun and crowbars?
You always practice full intensity? Really? Never pull a strike or stop short? Because, remember, you play like you practice and if you're not regularly breaking your training partners arms and legs, collapsing those lungs and snapping those necks, well, guess you'll just puss up in a fight huh kiddo?

So, how many people you send to the hospital each week in class?

Larping? Naw, but there is a joke here. Sniff. I think it's you.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, first of all, the bujinkan is essentially a for-profit cult and what they do is called LARPing. The bujinkan is a joke to real martial artists.

I have seen real LARPing and it does not compare to any of the problems I have seen in martial arts, unless one is talking about the fantasy, in which case buying into any fantasy that any system of training is superior or inferior can get you into trouble.

MMA fighters train "hard" because they want to win real fights. You play like you practice.

Can you define a Real Fight? Because none of the REAL FIGHTS I have ever been in or seen looked anything like a MMA Fight. I am confused.

"Soft" training is a disgrace to real martial arts because it doesn't prepare one for a real life situation. It only gives a false sense of confidence and can end up getting one hurt and embarassed if they depend on it in a real fight.
It is a good way to identify McDojos, though.

This is incorrect. Soft training allows for one to practice timing, and reall MMA schools use this as well. They go slow and sloft you a person can learn a technique and learn when to move and how to move. If it was 110% from the first move all the time, then you get those poor schools were they have more people on the injuried list not training then training.


Also, where in the Great Lakes area are you? Maybe this summer I could stop be and see what you guys do?

 

[Xinglu]

Sorry, didn't mean to neglect this thread or reply.

Hard training: Hard contact all the time. Things are done fast and hard. During sparring, heavy contact is made. During self defense, when that punch is coming, you better move, otherwise you're going to get hit in the face.

Soft training: Little/light to no contact.

The reason why I feel that both are important: IMO, if the goal is SD, then I feel that the student should be used to contact. I doubt the guy trying to attack you on the street is going to tap you like a fly. But at the same time, it does take a toll on your body. Many of us don't fight for a living. We have 40 or more hour a week jobs, need to go to them, and can't afford to be out with injury. So, many times, when I do my sparring or my techs., the contact will be there, but it will be light. I use this training, when I want to focus on something specific or really work on a fine point. Ex: I'll do thru some kata very slow, stopping after each move, making sure that my stances are correct, making sure that the strikes are correct and to the correct areas. This, IMO, helps with the muscle memory. You're body gets used to doing something, used to moving in the correct way, so when you pick up the pace, hopefully, it'll be second nature.

Hope that answered your questions.

Thank you, it is clear to me now that we're not talking about the same thing when talking about hard and soft training. As Xue has pointed out - the terms imply different things to we CMA folks.

I refer to these things as light and heavy training. And I agree in full, you need both. However, in both cases the training should be difficult if you are to improve