Social Sanctions in Taekwondo Class

[JR 137]

Yes. <nodding>

No. Absolutely not. If asked, BE HONEST. I'm assuming that this is a commercial martial arts school. They need to make money to stay in business. To make money, they need paying students. If students are not attending, dropping out, going away, even if it's just because "I don't like how he teaches," that's something the Business Owner needs to know. Maybe he's lost other students because of it. Maybe he's lost a LOT of students because of it.

Look at it this way, if it was a restaurant, don't you think the owner should get a straight answer if the reason you're leaving is because you think his lasagna tastes like floor wax?

You don't have to be mean or vindictive. You don't even have to volunteer the information. Most people don't. But for pete's sake, don't lie about it!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I see what you're saying about being honest. Everything's got its time and place.

There's an instructor at my dojo who I've stopped going to her class. She's a very good person and means well, but I think she's an awful teacher. I think she spends too much time correcting unimportant stuff, she comes in without a game plan, and she doesn't explain the drills she has us do sufficiently. She also doesn't transition well from one thing to the next. She loses control of the class often enough when there's younger adults/teens in class because of these things.

She's been around far longer than me and most others. People like her class. She's not doing anything malicious. Any complaints about her teaching are going to be taken the wrong way. If I were to be asked in front of people why I don't come to her class, I'd simply say it doesn't fit my schedule. I don't see any point in stirring the pot; nothing good is going to come of it. If my CI asked me privately how I felt about her teaching, I'd be honest. Maybe I'm too critical because I'm a school teacher (middle science and physical education). Maybe I see her struggle more than others do. Maybe I see mistakes far easier.

If there was something outright malicious or harmful to the dojo, I'd point it out behind closed doors to my CI without hesitation. Short of that, it's not my job to evaluate instructors and run back and tell my CI. If it was my job, that would be a different story.

 

[Tez3]

I see what you're saying about being honest. Everything's got its time and place.

There's an instructor at my dojo who I've stopped going to her class. She's a very good person and means well, but I think she's an awful teacher. I think she spends too much time correcting unimportant stuff, she comes in without a game plan, and she doesn't explain the drills she has us do sufficiently. She also doesn't transition well from one thing to the next. She loses control of the class often enough when there's younger adults/teens in class because of these things.

She's been around far longer than me and most others. People like her class. She's not doing anything malicious. Any complaints about her teaching are going to be taken the wrong way. If I were to be asked in front of people why I don't come to her class, I'd simply say it doesn't fit my schedule. I don't see any point in stirring the pot; nothing good is going to come of it. If my CI asked me privately how I felt about her teaching, I'd be honest. Maybe I'm too critical because I'm a school teacher (middle science and physical education). Maybe I see her struggle more than others do. Maybe I see mistakes far easier.

If there was something outright malicious or harmful to the dojo, I'd point it out behind closed doors to my CI without hesitation. Short of that, it's not my job to evaluate instructors and run back and tell my CI. If it was my job, that would be a different story.

I think this goes back to what was being said on another thread ( sorry can't remember at the moment which one) that in martial arts very often instructors aren't taught how to teach before being given classes to take. They know the techniques, can be very good fighters, excellent at kata/forms but not know how to pass that information on. As a teacher you will have trained, qualified and certified over at least a couple of years probably more, yet more often than not a black or brown belt grading is considered enough to be able to instruct. The student may have spent many years learning and training martial arts but instructing is very much a different subject which should be trained in itself.
A lot of people in the military are trained instructors and instructing skills are transferable between skills but military instructing tends to have a different tenor from civilian instructing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see what you're saying about being honest. Everything's got its time and place.

There's an instructor at my dojo who I've stopped going to her class. She's a very good person and means well, but I think she's an awful teacher. I think she spends too much time correcting unimportant stuff, she comes in without a game plan, and she doesn't explain the drills she has us do sufficiently. She also doesn't transition well from one thing to the next. She loses control of the class often enough when there's younger adults/teens in class because of these things.

She's been around far longer than me and most others. People like her class. She's not doing anything malicious. Any complaints about her teaching are going to be taken the wrong way. If I were to be asked in front of people why I don't come to her class, I'd simply say it doesn't fit my schedule. I don't see any point in stirring the pot; nothing good is going to come of it. If my CI asked me privately how I felt about her teaching, I'd be honest. Maybe I'm too critical because I'm a school teacher (middle science and physical education). Maybe I see her struggle more than others do. Maybe I see mistakes far easier.

If there was something outright malicious or harmful to the dojo, I'd point it out behind closed doors to my CI without hesitation. Short of that, it's not my job to evaluate instructors and run back and tell my CI. If it was my job, that would be a different story.

In that situation, I'd likely just answer (if asked in front of others), "I'm not a great fit for her teaching style. Everyone has a teaching style, and every student has some styles that fit and some that don't." It's entirely true, and takes nothing away from her, because (as you are obviously aware) bringing up her shortcomings (as you see them) in front of anyone but her or the CI isn't helpful.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Well...
Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.

I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...

Just go to another school all together

 

[JR 137]

I think this goes back to what was being said on another thread ( sorry can't remember at the moment which one) that in martial arts very often instructors aren't taught how to teach before being given classes to take. They know the techniques, can be very good fighters, excellent at kata/forms but not know how to pass that information on. As a teacher you will have trained, qualified and certified over at least a couple of years probably more, yet more often than not a black or brown belt grading is considered enough to be able to instruct. The student may have spent many years learning and training martial arts but instructing is very much a different subject which should be trained in itself.
A lot of people in the military are trained instructors and instructing skills are transferable between skills but military instructing tends to have a different tenor from civilian instructing.

This instructor reminds me of a former colleague of mine. That colleague was a great tutor, but a horrible classroom teacher. This instructor is the same thing - she's great at working individually with students in the dojo. If you have a question, she's easily one of the first people you seek out (after the CI and his right-hand man). But there's a big difference between working with someone one-on-one and running a class.

But again, a lot of the people in the dojo like her class. I shouldn't make my disagreement with her teaching an issue. Nothing good would come from it. If she came up to me privately and asked for some pointers, I'd give her my professional opinion. Same as if my CI asked privately. If a few classmates discuss her teaching in the locker room, I'll keep my mouth shut. Unless they're saying what I think, then it'll me minimal and polite.

 

[msmitht]

Just because his approach to training isn't a fit for her, that's not a reason to suggest she should be rude to him AND the entire class.

How was that rude? I told her that she shouldn't say anything while getting up and leaving. If she questioned him in front of the class it would have been rude. Sounds like he was the one being rude. If a beginner doesn't understand then an instructor should help, not belittle.

 

[msmitht]

Not to me. To me, it simply sounds like that's just the teaching method he learned and he sticks with it because it's natural to his personality.

Just as we learned in the 80's that there are different "Management Styles," there are also many different teaching styles. This is his.

Orrrr.... and here's a really really REALLY weird idea...

You could talk to the guy. You know, after class one day, just ask him for a minute of his time, semi-privately. Explain that the teaching style makes you uncomfortable and ask if that's just how he is or if he'll be willing to work with you to accommodate your style of learning?

Yeah, I know the whole idea of talking to someone directly about a potential issue just doesn't fit modern western culture and all, but... Could be worth a shot.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk[/QUOy

Sounds to me like his style of teaching clashes with her style of learning. As he is an instructor it may be intimidating to approach him after or before class especially if she not confident. Posing the question that way is the same as asking "are you always a dick or can you be nice and help me like an instructor should?"
Won't help. Don't go back or at least not to his class.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

How was that rude? I told her that she shouldn't say anything while getting up and leaving. If she questioned him in front of the class it would have been rude. Sounds like he was the one being rude. If a beginner doesn't understand then an instructor should help, not belittle.

The rude thing is not avoiding questioning, it's leaving in the middle of the class without a word it's obvious to everyone, and just leaves the students and sensei wondering why you suddenly left. A conversation after class explaining it, or simply telling the instructor something came up and that you have to go, then coming by later to explain, would be much better IMO then just disappearing.

From my reading, there wasn't belittling going on, it was more issues with social sanctions for 'laziness', or repeated mistakes.

 

[msmitht]

The rude thing is not avoiding questioning, it's leaving in the middle of the class without a word it's obvious to everyone, and just leaves the students and sensei wondering why you suddenly left. A conversation after class explaining it, or simply telling the instructor something came up and that you have to go, then coming by later to explain, would be much better IMO then just disappearing.

From my reading, there wasn't belittling going on, it was more issues with social sanctions for 'laziness', or repeated mistakes.

He made her sit and watch him do punches in front of the entire class. OK maybe not belittling but these are paying students, not military. When I was an 0311, USMC rifleman, we were trained very hard and that type of training was the norm except you were being screamed at.
There are better ways to teach and apparently he does not know them yet.
I don't think it would leave any question as to why you left in anyone's mind and I do believe that that is far less rude than standing up and lecturing him about social sanctions as the op suggested.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I think this goes back to what was being said on another thread ( sorry can't remember at the moment which one) that in martial arts very often instructors aren't taught how to teach before being given classes to take. They know the techniques, can be very good fighters, excellent at kata/forms but not know how to pass that information on. As a teacher you will have trained, qualified and certified over at least a couple of years probably more, yet more often than not a black or brown belt grading is considered enough to be able to instruct. The student may have spent many years learning and training martial arts but instructing is very much a different subject which should be trained in itself.
A lot of people in the military are trained instructors and instructing skills are transferable between skills but military instructing tends to have a different tenor from civilian instructing.

That's a good point and one I'd never thought about before. I'm a swimming and diving teacher and although I haven't had as much teacher training as a school teacher I have had enough to be a successful teacher. I'm guessing that a lot of Martial Arts instructors have had no formal teacher training and so rely on copying their instructor. It makes me wonder though, when a big MA organisation recognises an instructor do they do it purely on their MA ability, or do they look at their actual teaching as well?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How was that rude? I told her that she shouldn't say anything while getting up and leaving. If she questioned him in front of the class it would have been rude. Sounds like he was the one being rude. If a beginner doesn't understand then an instructor should help, not belittle.

Getting up and leaving in the middle of a class without saying a word? That is rude.

EDIT: I haven't suggested she should question him in front of class (nor has anyone else I can recall). Nothing I saw in the posts indicated he was being belittling. His teaching style is sub-optimal, and is uncomfortable for her. No reason to be rude in that context.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's a good point and one I'd never thought about before. I'm a swimming and diving teacher and although I haven't had as much teacher training as a school teacher I have had enough to be a successful teacher. I'm guessing that a lot of Martial Arts instructors have had no formal teacher training and so rely on copying their instructor. It makes me wonder though, when a big MA organisation recognises an instructor do they do it purely on their MA ability, or do they look at their actual teaching as well?

I'm not aware of many organizations that have any sort of instructor training. The largest organization in NGA requires student teaching prior to shodan (as do all the other mainstream organizations and independent schools, so far as I know), but there's no organized instructor curriculum. It's an area I've been looking sideways at for a long time, since my background is in training and development. I've started putting together an instructor training curriculum for Shojin-ryu, but I've got a few years before I'll have any use for it. I've even contemplated offering instructor training seminars to groups outside NGA.

 

[Tez3]

How was that rude? I told her that she shouldn't say anything while getting up and leaving. If she questioned him in front of the class it would have been rude. Sounds like he was the one being rude. If a beginner doesn't understand then an instructor should help, not belittle.

The problem is one of perception though, the rest of the class may well feel he's not being rude. We could go into the class and see something completely different and the way he teaches perhaps isn't as one student describes it but how they see it.
If a student left in the middle of one of my classes without sating anything my first instinct would be to stop the class for a couple of minutes to have another take over so I could check the student wasn't ill and needed help. I'm not a brilliant instructor but it wouldn't occur to me that the student walked out because they didn't like my teaching style after attending many classes with me before. During a first class perhaps but not after a length of time.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

He made her sit and watch him do punches in front of the entire class.

So, this right here shows that the class may not be what either of us are reading. I read it as "if someone is not paying attention during punching drills, they are asked to sit", not "I had to sit down in front of the class and watch the instructor." With that much variation just interpreting her words of how the class is run, can you see how we can't make any concrete statements about the instruction itself since we have not witnessed it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, this right here shows that the class may not be what either of us are reading. I read it as "if someone is not paying attention during punching drills, they are asked to sit", not "I had to sit down in front of the class and watch the instructor." With that much variation just interpreting her words of how the class is run, can you see how we can't make any concrete statements about the instruction itself since we have not witnessed it?

That's how I read it, too. It sounded to me like a slightly overcooked response to what could be construed as a safety issue (students not paying attention). If I were in the class, I'd find it a bit awkward to be in the room (either sitting or having someone else sit) the first time or two, but it didn't sound like anything awful. But as you point out, that was just my reading, and it might have been more uncomfortable than that.

 

[lklawson]

Sounds to me like his style of teaching clashes with her style of learning.

That's what I said.

As he is an instructor it may be intimidating to approach him after or before class especially if she not confident. Posing the question that way is the same as asking "are you always a dick or can you be nice and help me like an instructor should?"
Won't help. Don't go back or at least not to his class.

Mule muffins. It's the same as going to a restaurant and sending back a steak which isn't cooked right. No one believes that is the equivalent of saying, "Are you always a bad cook or can you fix mine right?" It's exactly the same thing as saying, "this isn't what I wanted."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I'm not aware of many organizations that have any sort of instructor training. The largest organization in NGA requires student teaching prior to shodan (as do all the other mainstream organizations and independent schools, so far as I know), but there's no organized instructor curriculum. It's an area I've been looking sideways at for a long time, since my background is in training and development. I've started putting together an instructor training curriculum for Shojin-ryu, but I've got a few years before I'll have any use for it. I've even contemplated offering instructor training seminars to groups outside NGA.

In the UK we have the Amateur Martial Association (AMA), where in order to be recognised as an instructor with them you:

must be of contractual age (18) and hold an approved Dan or equivalent. They must have AMA indemnity insurance and approved current qualification and certification in coaching, first aid, child protection (if instructing any) and DBS ( via AMA) . New entrants must supply photocopies of Dan grades and or certificates and if these are from unknown sources then we may require to assess the applicant by one of our designated officers. New entrants are classed as provisional members in the first 12 months and must fit the AMA criteria following their first years membership.

Does the US have an equivalent of this?

 

[msmitht]

Getting up and leaving in the middle of a class without saying a word? That is rude.

EDIT: I haven't suggested she should question him in front of class (nor has anyone else I can recall). Nothing I saw in the posts indicated he was being belittling. His teaching style is sub-optimal, and is uncomfortable for her. No reason to be rude in that context.

Re read the op

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In the UK we have the Amateur Martial Association (AMA), where in order to be recognised as an instructor with them you:



Does the US have an equivalent of this?

Not really.

 

[msmitht]

In the UK we have the Amateur Martial Association (AMA), where in order to be recognised as an instructor with them you:



Does the US have an equivalent of this?

LOL. not at all. I've seen 14 year olds teaching other teens and adults. ridiculous, isn't it?