Social Sanctions in Taekwondo Class

[Desmadona]

Hello,
I belong to a Taekwondo community and attend several classes each week taught by different instructors. I'm trying to learn to live the martial way, but I have to admit, I have a strong tendency to voice my opinions and am dangerously close to doing so in one of the classes I attend.

The instructor of this class relies on social sanctions in the form of group punishment and focused shame to motivate students to do their absolute best. This instructor comes from a military background and is using his military experience to control his class. He threatens to stop the entire class during floor drills [to focus their attention on you] if you don't do things to his satisfaction. He will make you sit down if you look at him while doing punching drills (instead of your imaginary opponent). He threatens to make the whole class start over again if you have lazy form on your combo drills (where we do some sort of kicking combo across the floor of the dojo). He adds time to exercises if he notices people failing, etc... Those are just the things he did in the last class I attended... he varies it from class to class.

Every time I'm faced with these ultimatums, I'm more and more tempted to stand up and give a little lecture on social sanctions and their effectiveness in long-term relationships, and then refuse to participate, which would be taken as a HUGE sign of disrespect and would definitely not be representative of the martial way.

I'm wondering what your take on using social sanctions in martial arts instruction is.
Thanks!

 

[drop bear]

We have them. you screw up everybody pays. I dont tnink people are being mentally damaged from the process. There are probably ways to do it well and ways to do it creepy like a lot of things.

 

[pgsmith]

I think it's the instructor's class, and he can do whatever he feels is the right thing in it. If you don't care for it, and you obviously don't, then vote with your feet. Standing up and giving a lecture to your instructor because you don't like the way he teaches is a good way to get some quick personal sparring instruction.

This is why I always urge people to try out different arts and dojo when they wish to practice martial arts. Each one is different, and some of them will agree with you more than others. Find one you enjoy going to and stick with it for a few decades.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's not an approach that would work well for me. I would leave the class and find a different teacher.

If you are tempted to speak up in the way you described, don't. It won't end well for you. I suggest you recognize that his approach is not a good match for you. Find a different teacher, with a different teaching style.

 

[Tez3]

Ok, you may not like all of this but I'm going to be honest.

I'm trying to learn to live the martial way

Who's definition of 'living the martial way' are you using? What do you mean by living the martial way? Are you planning on being a modern samurai ( not actually possible) for example or are you just training martial arts for fitness, self defence or competition like the rest of us.

social sanctions

I'm not sure why you call them 'social' sanctions, you are training in a martial arts class, it is not a social situation, it's training.

He will make you sit down if you look at him while doing punching drills (instead of your imaginary opponent).

Looking at your opponent is the best thing to do, you shouldn't be looking at him, if he makes you sit down then he is reminding you of this, it's important, if you don't look you won't see the punch coming. some instructors would throw that punch at you to remind you.

He threatens to make the whole class start over again if you have lazy form on your combo drills

That's obviously the way he teaches, some people will like it some won't.

their effectiveness in long-term relationships

You aren't in a relationship, he's a martial arts instructor you are the student.

representative of the martial way.

What martial way? You are paying to be taught martial arts, if you don't like the instructor and feel you can't learn then leave, find a class you enjoy. You are making it sound like a cult, it's not you are learning martial arts, it's a contract between you and your school/gym, just the same as if you were having dance or singing lessons. As the others have said find somewhere else. And seriously think about this 'martial way' thing.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's not an approach that would work well for me. I would leave the class and find a different teacher.

If you are tempted to speak up in the way you described, don't. It won't end well for you. I suggest you recognize that his approach is not a good match for you. Find a different teacher, with a different teaching style.

I say, suck it up, butter cup, but that's just me.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Agreed with everything else said so far. I too would find that kind of instruction very intimidating and it would ruin both my enjoyment and my progression. Have you spoken to any of the other students about how you feel? If all of you feel the same way then it might be worth approaching the instructor about it. Otherwise, just leave the class and go somewhere else. If you do approach the instructor about your feelings then the middle of the class when you are frustrated and upset is NOT the time to do it. If you have concerns do it either before or after the class when you are in a good mindset and can voice your thoughts without losing control.

I would also urge you to consider looking at this from the instructor's prospective. You said he comes from a military background right? I have quite a few friends who are ex-military and most of them have a great deal of difficulty fitting back into civilian life, including how to interact with others. It's not that they are bullies and are intentionally upsetting you, it's just that they have been in that kind of system for so long that it is all they know. "Social Sanctions" as you call them are perfectly normal for ex-military personnel and the instructor may not realise the effect he is having on you.

As a side note, I'm also curious about your "Martial Way" and what it means to you. Everyone has a different approach to their training and the Martial Arts, so it's hard to tell what you mean by this.

 

[Desmadona]

I can't say I disagree with most of the comments so far... it is definitely HIS class. I said I FEEL like speaking up, not that I WOULD... Every class is just adding to my frustration level and if I don't stop going OR fix the issue somehow, my nature will eventually get the best of me. I figured this was a good forum in which I could get some perspective, so I thank you for your feedback. But really... sucking it up is not something I do. I wish it were... that'd most certainly be the easiest solution.

As for my definition of Martial way... It's kind of a lot to explain (not sure I have the words, really), but It's something I've been taught by a couple other instructors (who no longer teach at this school) - Basically trying to see situations through a lens of understanding based in honor, loyalty, simplicity, interconnectedness, patience and balance as opposed to the lens I was born with, which is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits. It's kind of an ideal and I should have used a different phrase instead of "Martial way" because that phrase is so... vague.

Midnight Shadow. Thank you for your assessment... some useful advice in there.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I can't say I disagree with most of the comments so far... it is definitely HIS class. I said I FEEL like speaking up, not that I WOULD... Every class is just adding to my frustration level and if I don't stop going OR fix the issue somehow, my nature will eventually get the best of me. I figured this was a good forum in which I could get some perspective, so I thank you for your feedback. But really... sucking it up is not something I do. I wish it were... that'd most certainly be the easiest solution.

As for my definition of Martial way... It's kind of a lot to explain (not sure I have the words, really), but It's something I've been taught by a couple other instructors (who no longer teach at this school) - Basically trying to see situations through a lens of understanding based in honor, loyalty, simplicity, interconnectedness, patience and balance as opposed to the lens I was born with, which is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits. It's kind of an ideal and I should have used a different phrase instead of "Martial way" because that phrase is so... vague.

Midnight Shadow. Thank you for your assessment... some useful advice in there.

I see. So your Martial Way refers to the set of ideals on how to live your life, and I'm guessing respect for your teacher is one of them. To quote a bad film "the man who honours his teacher honours himself". That's all well and good but remember that at the end of the day your instructor is there to bring out the best in you, not to try and turn you into a copy of himself. If what he is doing isn't helping you then you need to let him know. It isn't disrespectful to tell your teacher if something is wrong or you don't think a method is working, as long as you do it in a respectful way (i.e. not in front of the whole class in a fit of rage).

 

[Tez3]

I can't say I disagree with most of the comments so far... it is definitely HIS class. I said I FEEL like speaking up, not that I WOULD... Every class is just adding to my frustration level and if I don't stop going OR fix the issue somehow, my nature will eventually get the best of me. I figured this was a good forum in which I could get some perspective, so I thank you for your feedback. But really... sucking it up is not something I do. I wish it were... that'd most certainly be the easiest solution.

As for my definition of Martial way... It's kind of a lot to explain (not sure I have the words, really), but It's something I've been taught by a couple other instructors (who no longer teach at this school) - Basically trying to see situations through a lens of understanding based in honor, loyalty, simplicity, interconnectedness, patience and balance as opposed to the lens I was born with, which is negative, angry, selfish, frustrated, and a host of other undesirable traits. It's kind of an ideal and I should have used a different phrase instead of "Martial way" because that phrase is so... vague.

Midnight Shadow. Thank you for your assessment... some useful advice in there.

That's not a specific martial arts thing, it's just not a bad way to live. You can however learn to do this without martial arts.

Question...why are you training with this instructor if he's a bad fit for you? There's actually no reason for you to, you don't gel, it doesn't make either of you right or wrong just a bad fit. Like teachers at school, you didn't like all of them but there you had to put up with them. In martial arts you don't, you are paying, you are the customer so choose an instructor that is a good fit for you, that you are happy training under. The instructor is teaching you martial arts only, you may admire some qualities they have but they aren't there to teach you those qualities, not their job. Would you keep wearing a pair of shoes that didn't fit if you had other pairs to chose from that were a comfortable fit?

I'd like to ask too what you mean by 'Taekwondo community'? is it a school or gym and how do they promote themselves as a community ?

 

[Desmadona]

Well...
Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.

I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...

 

[Tames D]

Edit: Never mind.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well...
Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.

I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...

So why can't/don't you just go to this person and say "I don't think you and I are a particularly good fit, so I'm going to stop coming to your classes and ask someone else to be my primary instructor."? I mean, we're talking about adults here, right?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's the truth.
If you don't like his class then train somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with going somewhere else. The last thing you want to do in a class like that is "speak your mind" about how you feel the class should be taught. To say something like that is just asking for more pain.

I use group punishment to manage troubled youth behavior. I made everyone responsible for helping each other stay on a good and productive path. When one person allows someone to do something wrong then I make everyone pay for not keeping the other person on the right path.

Your training is the same thing. If you don't want to do extra work because someone gets something wrong then help you classmate get it right. It's a tough way to learn and not everyone likes it, but keep in mind you aren't being forced to attend or pay for the class.

 

[drop bear]

So why can't/don't you just go to this person and say "I don't think you and I are a particularly good fit, so I'm going to stop coming to your classes and ask someone else to be my primary instructor."? I mean, we're talking about adults here, right?

Or even that the social sanctions are enraging you. And mabye tone it down a bit.

 

[Tames D]

When one person allows someone to do something wrong then I make everyone pay for not keeping the other person on the right path.

Just curious.. When you do something wrong, do all the instructors pay for it? Just wondering

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just curious.. When you do something wrong, do all the instructors pay for it? Just wondering

This was something that I used to do at a youth development center and not in the Kung Fu school. When I was working at the youth development center it was punishment and I singled out trouble makers and not only held them accountable but held their friends accountable. "I am my brother's keeper." "People who would let me do wrong aren't my friends." "Friends want the best for you not the worst." Things like that were all learned by punishing the entire group and allowed them to build bonds outside of the center where they looked after each others's best Interest. While I didn't punish myself, it was not fun for me either I rather spend time doing fun stuff than spending time disciplining teens. Disciplining teens takes a lot of energy to do and to be honest it's easier to just not care, but at then it becomes costly in the long run.

In the Kung Fu school we allow people to progress at their own speed we don't have a standard that everyone must perform at a certain level. However, if someone gets a smart mouth, then yes the Instructors pay for it as well. For example, if a student complains about an exercises then everyone gets double of that exercise, including the instructors. If someone gets smart and says that it's easy, then we get more of that exercise.

Sometimes when I teach the main class, if a student can't finish a form that they know within a certain amount of time, then that person has to do push ups. I volunteer to do push ups with the student who didn't complete the form and other students decide on their own if they want to do push ups as punishment or not. Instead of us singling someone out, and placing blame, everyone accepts the punishment as a supportive role (sort of like we won't let you go through the hardship alone). To be honest what's the worst that can happen? The person who has to do push ups for getting something wrong will just get stronger.

 

[Tames D]

@ JowGaWolf: I respect the way you operate. My question was sincere and not meant to be smartass. In post #12, I suggested to the OP that they ask the instructors to join in the punishments. But I decided to delete that post for obvious reasons. The Martial Arts group I train with are all adults and we really don't have a need to hand down punishment as we all have been doing this a long time and our attitudes are where they should be.
However, I am an adult leader in the BSA and we do find that "suggesting" a form of punishment does get results in attitude adjustment. I never hand down a punishment that I am not willing to do myself along side them. It use to surprise them when I would get down and do the push ups or bear crawls with them. I've earned their respect and there is always an improvement in their attitudes. It works.

 

[Tez3]

Well...
Still going to this particular class because this instructor is listed as my primary instructor because this was the first class I attended - he's the one who recommends me for promotion when I'm ready to test. I say community because there are a couple of different classes per day all taught by different instructors. I can go to however many classes taught by whoever I want, which I absolutely LOVE because each instructor brings their own flavor to the training - some focus on speed, some on technique. Some focus on forms, others on sparring, and all have different knowledge bases, which makes them all valuable. And the town I live in is VERY community oriented - everyone knows everyone else and at least pretends to care. It's rather strange having grown up in a normal town where people kind of mind their own business.

I *could* ask another instructor to recommend me for promotion, but that would be like waving a bright red flag indicating something is wrong and would lead to questions I doubt anyone really wants answers to. Thus my dilemma. If I stop going to this class, there will be questions. If another teacher recommends me for promotion, this teacher will be at those tests, wondering why he didn't know I was testing... etc...

This sounds remarkable complicated for a simple martial arts school from whom you are paying for instruction. Paying to feel uncomfortable and uneasy seems to go against the grain. You are making it sound quite worrying actually, and little alarm bells are going off in my head. If you continue to attend and pay for a class that you are unhappy in because you are worried about what the instructors will say that is very wrong. How dependent are you on this martial arts school and it's instructors? How much of a hold do they have over your views on martial arts, how it's taught and how you should live? what would happen if you left there all together and trained somewhere else?

 

[drop bear]

Just curious.. When you do something wrong, do all the instructors pay for it? Just wondering

Ours do. Everyone does the punishment.