You are so right. A lot of that seems to stem from a growning lack of community everywhere. How many people do you know that couldn't even give the names of their neighbors?
So what is this world coming to again?...
- Thread starter Lisa
- Start date
I think Terry's post has a big part of the story in it. There's a critical window period, and if a kid isn't exposed to moral and ethical information during that phase, it's not gonna `take' later on. It's like language---a kid thrown in a closet and kept there till the age of ten and never spoken to will never deveop develop language---capacity is there at birth but without `triggers', it can't develop once the critical phase has past, like that famous case of `Genie' in the 1970s and early 80s and other feral children. The kids are probably well past that `moral' window. At this point, probably, nothing is going to change them.
I agree with much of what has been posted - these children lack compassion, as Cory said, and also lack a sense of community. Too many people turn their backs on those around them because raising them is someone else's concern; "it takes a village to raise a child" may be trite, dated, and overused... but it's also quite true, and the villages in many first world countries have been lost to cities, through many factors, including time, safety (although kids were a lot safer when the whole community paid attention to them), distance (the corner store has been bulldozed for the megastore in far too many places)... too many factors too list here, and I don't want to get off the track of the discussion.
That children - especially children that young - would commit such an act is heinous and abhorrent. That the justice system will not deal with them appropriatelely is, in my opinion, secondary to the concept that there are children that age who would merit such attention. However, I hesitate to blame the children solely - where were the parents who should have been supervising children of those ages, especially those on the younger end, when this act occurred? What had these children seen and heard in their lives that they would even consider deliberately setting fire to a structure with a person intentionally trapped within it? This is a system issue - one that concerns and involves (or should involve) the entire community - and the response to it should include the entire community, and not just finger pointing and finger shaking at the children directly involved.
That children - especially children that young - would commit such an act is heinous and abhorrent. That the justice system will not deal with them appropriatelely is, in my opinion, secondary to the concept that there are children that age who would merit such attention. However, I hesitate to blame the children solely - where were the parents who should have been supervising children of those ages, especially those on the younger end, when this act occurred? What had these children seen and heard in their lives that they would even consider deliberately setting fire to a structure with a person intentionally trapped within it? This is a system issue - one that concerns and involves (or should involve) the entire community - and the response to it should include the entire community, and not just finger pointing and finger shaking at the children directly involved.
My own two cents for what they are worth....I agree and disagree with some of what has been said. Although I am appalled that these children sound like they are basically getting away "scot-free" I do not think a child that is 8 should have their life ruined by one bad act without any attempt to reform him/her. Though I agree that hugs and kisses are not the answer, neither do I think that these kids should be immediately given up on. I have to wonder about several things though before I could make a choice on what I think sould happen to them. I got to wonder where the parents are in all this and how the kids even got the matches or lighters necessary to start a fire. My mom is a smoker, but I know growing up I still wouldn't have been able to find anything to start a fire until I was in my mid-teens. I got to wonder why these kids were in an area that it doesn't sound like were made for kids to play, if there is no place reasonable for you kids to play in your neighborhood then why aren't they involved in some activity. I know when I was 8, I was always in my yard playing or in a neighbors yard where the mom or dad where keeping an eye on me and whomever I was playing with. I didn't get to just rom around. I don't know the violence on TV and in movies or video games gave them the ideas to do this, but I also got to wonder if it did what were they watching int he first place. And I also got to wonder even if 5 to 7 kids were involved and all are responsible, was there an instigator, someone who did it or goaded them into doing that was even older and needs to be held to a higher level or justice.
In the end I just don't know the answers. I didn't grow up in a neighborhood where everyone knew your name. I mean I knew who was to the left and right of me, but that is about it, but still, someone kept a close eye on me and when no one was available, I was at a babysitters or in a latchkey program or in other programs to keep me occupied and under someone' supervision until my folks where available again.
In the end I just don't know the answers. I didn't grow up in a neighborhood where everyone knew your name. I mean I knew who was to the left and right of me, but that is about it, but still, someone kept a close eye on me and when no one was available, I was at a babysitters or in a latchkey program or in other programs to keep me occupied and under someone' supervision until my folks where available again.
CoryKS
Senior Master
Hugs and kisses are wonderful things, but they are only effective in modifying one's behavior if 1) there is a risk that the affection will be withdrawn if one behaves badly; and 2) the possibility of losing affection outweighs the perceived benefits of the bad behavior.
I think it's less likely that this approach could be used with older children, especially if they have lived in circumstances where affection was not given. How can you fear losing something you never had?
I think it's less likely that this approach could be used with older children, especially if they have lived in circumstances where affection was not given. How can you fear losing something you never had?
Ping I can see where you are going but reality is reality childern will learn what they have been tought in early developement and soem can make the transition while a great deal end up in prison or worst ina grave for there better lack of gudgement. Society need to b holding parent accountible for there child action and daycares and child keeeper need to have qualify staff to deal with trouble childern not just somethere to watch them until 6 pm or be un supervise until the parent gets home.
On my block we have five houses that the childern are in 5th grade and lower that are by themself until there parents get hame from work, no one around to watch or police there actions
It is sad that monotary gain is more important than a child wealfare.
On my block we have five houses that the childern are in 5th grade and lower that are by themself until there parents get hame from work, no one around to watch or police there actions
It is sad that monotary gain is more important than a child wealfare.
CoryKS
Senior Master
That's the money quote. The parents are the ones can most effectively control their children's behavior. Sure, it's trendy to point the finger at everyone and say we all let these kids down. But be realistic: how much authority do you really have over the child next door? You can't touch them. I'm not even sure you can say anything to them anymore. You can call the parent or the police. If the parents were doing their job you wouldn't be on the phone in the first place, and if the police are busy they can't/won't respond. Give the parents the incentive to raise their kids right. Of course, that's making the assumption that the parents know how to act...
Kacey and Terry are dead-on here. If some children raised without moral guidance become monsters, then why are they not getting that guidance? They can't raise themselves---and while many won't turn out the way these kids did, there are always a few who will.
If we in effect give permission to people to let their children be raised by others, this kind of thing is going to happen. It reminds me a lot of that grim old movie The River's Edge...
Actually Terry that was kind probably 2/3rd of my point and maybe I didn't express it well, which was where were the parents in all this and how were the kids ever able to do this in the first place?
However, that said some kids will go bad no matter how good you do parenting, some kids will turn out great no matter how bad your parenting, I seen both sides happen, so at some point the kids need to take some responsibility even if it is not anywhere near the full amount. The 8 year olds maybe not so much, but the 11 year olds maybe needs to accept more of the responsibility than should be expect of the younger kids...
modarnis
Purple Belt
You hit the nail on the head. I deal with slightly older 16-18 year olds (who are considered adults here in CT). What is so scary is the empty look many of these violent kids have in their eyes. You can blame parents or tv or whatever, but these kids are broken at a young age and a sad but true fact is most will be repeat offenders, despite the variety of programs available to help young criminals.
That's the key phrase. After that window is shut, you can't open it up again. I have a suspicion that ethical awareness is one of those psychological systems where triggering experiences must occur before a certain age, otherwise they never develop. Language is one system like that, aspects of vision (like depth perception) in mammals also are... if the same thing is true about what we call, in not so fancy terms, `conscience', it would explain why so many of these kids turn out to be recidivists, spending large chunks or fractions of their lives in prison. They're blind to the ethical landscape, have no idea what it's about and can't acquire the sense of it later on in life. That's the future I foresee for the kids who tried to burn this other kid to death.
Best we can hope for now is that the victim is able to recover from his trauma and eventually have a happy life. I see no hope for his tormentors.
First of all, this story made me physically ill. I don't want to think that the society that I live in can produce children who could do this.
But it does.
And Terry hit it right on the head. Video games, movies, TV, you name it, IT HAS AN EFFECT. I don't have cable TV. We don't play video games. I screen EVERYTHING my kids watch, because I sincerely believe that it is in their best interest.
We need to keep our children innocent for as long as possible. One murder on TV is one too many...much less the hundreds of thousands they will see by the age of 18.
Ok I can say this for those of you reading what I said , I said TV and movies can contribrute to these things so much is out there with nothing but glorifing violence and such. I'm sorry some people do not agree with what I had to say and rather post a comment themself they would rather give out negative rep points.
I stand by what I have said earlier and about all the volence on TV video game and the movies, most childern see these as a real life scenerio and not the make believe it is.
I stand by what I have said earlier and about all the volence on TV video game and the movies, most childern see these as a real life scenerio and not the make believe it is.
N 2 Combat
White Belt
It is true that no matter how good the parenting, the child may come out bad and vice versa. I have a niece whose mother was great to her and she still turned out not as expected. In this day and age sometimes you can't even confront the parent for fear of an altercation. The days of "It takes village to raise a child" are gone. This is what is so disturbing nowadays. Of course we now have babies making babies, rasing babies. Grandma is 35. The mother 20. The child 5. Video games, t.v., movies, even life plays a big part of molding a childs mind. My wife took every game from 3 of my children that was even slightly violent. Even a Superman game?! This world is changing and not for the better. That does not mean we should give up on them. There is no silver bullet for all the troubled kids in the world or at least the American society. There was a point made earlier that at 11 they should be conscious of what they do. To lock a child that is different from them and set the shed on fire is most disturbing. They must of got that idea from somewhere. Violence is everywhere is every aspect of our lives be it media or real life. We can only try to contribute to society and hope we can make a small difference. If 1 child is reached then maybe that child can make a difference to another and create a domino effect.
heretic888
Senior Master
Well, given my background in psychology, there's something I'd like to mention here....
Namely, the notion that "media violence is bad for the kids!" is an amazingly simplified and dumbed-down way of putting the situation. It is not at all black and white. Not even close.
The truth is that the particulars of the violent imagery as well as the context that it is presented will impact what the children will "take away" from it. Violent media can either desensitize or sensitize children to violence. Many people don't want to admit it, but given all the variables of the research I have seen (i.e., realism of the violence, repercussions of the violence, use of weapons versus non-weapon in violence, etc), Bugs Bunny on Looney Tunes probably does more to desensitize children to violence than, say, Jack Bauer on 24.
That's the truth, whether people want to accept it or not.
I personally don't agree with the "keeping them innocent" approach. But, then again, I'm not a parent so my outlook may change later in life.
Laterz.
.... that being said, I do not for a second believe that the children we are dealing with here became malevolent antisocials because they listened to Pantera too much or saw too much Family Guy. If you honestly believe that's what is going on here, I would have to conclude you are being unrealistic about this case. I suspect many people want to believe that is what's going on, because the truth is much more complex and sinister in nature.
But, hey, what do I know??
OP
OP
Heretic,
I agree with most of what you say. You are right, we can't go around blaming "ONE THING" for what happened to these children.
Since you have a psychology background would you mind sharing with us some thoughts on what would cause a child or children like these to become so desensitized that they would do such a horrible thing to another human being. I am interested in your theories. Thanks
The fact that someone would give neg reps for this is evidence of their blatent ignorance of child psychology. If you look at the most basic works of Piaget, things that every teacher studies, you will find that children ARE NOT able to separate reality from fantasy at certain stages of their development. Some children go through these stages faster then others. Some slower. The bottom line is that there is a large amount of kids in their early and middle teens who may not have passed through this particular developmental stage.
I'll rep you Terry, because you are RIGHT ON with this stuff!
heretic888
Senior Master
Heretic,
I agree with most of what you say. You are right, we can't go around blaming "ONE THING" for what happened to these children.
Since you have a psychology background would you mind sharing with us some thoughts on what would cause a child or children like these to become so desensitized that they would do such a horrible thing to another human being. I am interested in your theories. Thanks
In all honesty, it could be any number of things.
There are genetic abnormalities, personality disorders, abusive home situations, social or peer pressures, negative role models, or a lack of consistent stability or order in these childrens' lives that could all feasibly account for their behavior. It will most likely turn out to be some combination of these factors.
The "they learned it from tv!" argument really only makes sense in the context of social learning theory, which may or may not be applicable here.
I couldn't tell you more without knowing more about the children themselves. Also, I am far from a qualified expert so you should take everything I say with a grain of salt.
Laterz.
heretic888
Senior Master
Well, the level of cognitive development you are referring to is Piaget's pre-operational stage. This is normally worked out by most children between ages 2 and 5, roughly speaking.
The children in this situation are at the age where they should be well into concrete operations and beginning to develop formal operations. However, we don't have specific information about them, so it would be impossible to say for sure.
Also note that these children could be fully developed cognitively, but still "retarded" (so to speak) in other developmental domains such as perspective-taking or sociomoral reasoning. Being able to distinguish between reality and fantasy doesn't ensure you will be a good person.
Laterz.
