Slow sparring

[drop bear]

All the time.

It's not so easy to work takedowns slowly, unless you have a significant skill advantage. Once you're on the ground, however, it becomes much more viable.

It's pretty normal for me to be rolling with lower belts and be puttering along at my lackadaisical old man speed while the young guy I'm with is trying to go 60 miles per hour. I don't try to match their speed or effort. If they want to go faster, more power to them. Usually it doesn't help them that much.

When I'm rolling with other black belts it's not uncommon for both of us to go relatively slow because we're trying to focus on technique. If I'm going with a younger black or brown belt who really wants to be competitive they can sometimes get an advantage by going faster. I'm reasonably fast for a 51 year old with a desk job, but a 28 year old competitive athlete will have a definite edge there.

It is always slow until it is a scramble or you are about to get a sub. Then it is a hundred miles an hour.

I have fallen in to the gentle roll trap.

Wrestling or rolling with punches tends to be automatically explosive. Just the nature of a thing.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

From the safety stand point of view, the slow speed "take down" such as single leg, double legs, ... may work. But the slow speed "throw" such as hip throw, shoulder show, leg lift throw, ... that require full body rotation can be very dangerous.

If you try to perform a slow hip throw, your opponent's head will hit straight down to the ground. To throw your opponent "1/2 way" or "1/2 speed" is a guarantee way to cause serious injury. You don't give your opponent enough speed and force to allow his body to complete his "full body rotation".

Huh. That hasn't really been my experience with hip throws. I don't think it really takes a lot of speed to make your partners body complete the full rotation on a basic hip throw as long as your technique is solid. When I teach O Goshi I usually demonstrate how I can load my uke onto my hip, pick him up, balance him there without using effort, then dump him on his back with an easy dip of my shoulder. Very little speed needed. (Obviously you wouldn't want that pause in the middle in actual application, but it's a helpful training tool to check that the thrower has solid balance and control of uke's weight.)

The times I've seen a student throwing their partner at an unsafe angle, it's generally been down to improper technique or poor balance, not insufficient speed.

Some throws do require more speed to execute properly - ones which involve capturing the opponents momentum or those which reap his legs out from under him, for example. The basic hip throw and shoulder throw, not so much. (In a competitive environment, of course, most takedowns require speed to complete before the opponent counters, but I don't think you're talking about that.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It is always slow until it is a scramble or you are about to get a sub. Then it is a hundred miles an hour.

I have fallen in to the gentle roll trap.

Wrestling or rolling with punches tends to be automatically explosive. Just the nature of a thing.

Ehh, the whole "let's go easy (until I'm about to lose)" routine is common enough to be a joke in BJJ circles, but I really don't play that way. If I'm set to move at 10 miles per hour during rolling today and you are able to beat me by going 60 miles per hour, then good for you. I'll have to figure out how to be more efficient next time.

Rolling with strikes does tend to up the intensity level due to adrenaline kicking in, but it's still possible to work a slower, more relaxed game.

 

[Buka]

All the time.

It's not so easy to work takedowns slowly, unless you have a significant skill advantage. Once you're on the ground, however, it becomes much more viable.

It's pretty normal for me to be rolling with lower belts and be puttering along at my lackadaisical old man speed while the young guy I'm with is trying to go 60 miles per hour. I don't try to match their speed or effort. If they want to go faster, more power to them. Usually it doesn't help them that much.

When I'm rolling with other black belts it's not uncommon for both of us to go relatively slow because we're trying to focus on technique. If I'm going with a younger black or brown belt who really wants to be competitive they can sometimes get an advantage by going faster. I'm reasonably fast for a 51 year old with a desk job, but a 28 year old competitive athlete will have a definite edge there.

Yeah, those young guys sure do like going 60 miles an hour. I think it's more a "new" guy thing than an age thing, though, I went way too fast when I first started grappling as well. I found out that a good ju-jitsu guy will just wait while you go nuts because he knows you're about to put something in the wrong place. Then he grabs and says, "Let's just keep this leg right here for a second while I move my hips to here." Then it's over.

What I find to be the single most interesting faction of Martial Arts I've experienced is rolling with elite BJJ practitioners. It's one thing to be rolling with someone better than you, it's a great learning experience, but is just frustrating at times. But when rolling with those that are just off the charts better, it's actually hilarious. They'll move so fricken slow it's like they're bored, stoned or dead, while you just do anything you want. You even get to recognize how you're about to get submitted and can't do anything about it.
That is just so completely different than a striking comparison in skill level.

 

[Blindside]

What I find to be the single most interesting faction of Martial Arts I've experienced is rolling with elite BJJ practitioners. It's one thing to be rolling with someone better than you, it's a great learning experience, but is just frustrating at times. But when rolling with those that are just off the charts better, it's actually hilarious. They'll move so fricken slow it's like they're bored, stoned or dead, while you just do anything you want. You even get to recognize how you're about to get submitted and can't do anything about it.
That is just so completely different than a striking comparison in skill level.

My very first experience with a high level BJJ guy was watching Rigan Machado come to our school (this was '97ish) and ask you what you wanted to be submitted by and he would do it. And he would talk and joke and not break a sweat as he subbed the entire class one at a time. Very very impressive.

 

[Buka]

My very first experience with a high level BJJ guy was watching Rigan Machado come to our school (this was '97ish) and ask you what you wanted to be submitted by and he would do it. And he would talk and joke and not break a sweat as he subbed the entire class one at a time. Very very impressive.

Awesome. Isn't that trippy when you experience that? How many moves ahead must a guy be to even think about doing that? Do you remember what you asked to be submitted by? (that sentence sounds so odd!)

 

[Blindside]

Awesome. Isn't that trippy when you experience that? How many moves ahead must a guy be to even think about doing that? Do you remember what you asked to be submitted by? (that sentence sounds so odd!)

Triangle. I was a total newb so about all I knew was an armbar, a triangle, the double hand scissor collar choke, and a rear naked, so I figured triangle because it had a more specific setup, naturally it didn't help.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From the safety stand point of view, the slow speed "take down" such as single leg, double legs, ... may work. But the slow speed "throw" such as hip throw, shoulder show, leg lift throw, ... that require full body rotation can be very dangerous.

If you try to perform a slow hip throw, your opponent's head will hit straight down to the ground. To throw your opponent "1/2 way" or "1/2 speed" is a guarantee way to cause serious injury. You don't give your opponent enough speed and force to allow his body to complete his "full body rotation".

That's almost entirely untrue. There are ways (from both sides of the technique) to do slow and safe during almost any throw. Yes, faster can make the body turns easier, but there are ways to offset that while going slow and actually make the slow version safer. I can only think of one throw in my experience where there's a real difficulty with that, and the danger is to the person doing the throw (and only if they don't position their weight properly to begin with).

 

[drop bear]

Triangle. I was a total newb so about all I knew was an armbar, a triangle, the double hand scissor collar choke, and a rear naked, so I figured triangle because it had a more specific setup, naturally it didn't help.

 

[Blindside]

I did mention total newb right? (still am) But how many armbar setups can you do? 1324? Besides, I only had to defend one neck, with armbars I would have two targets to worry about.

 

[marques]

To continue this discussion about fast sparring vs slow sparring...

I use fast sparring mainly as an evaluation (A few minutes each ~3 months?). I can't learn pretty much about how to fight during fast sparring. But I can learn a lot about myself, my strong points and weaknesses easier. Injuries or headaches, easier too... And at lesser extent, learn about my partners. If they spar competitively I already know what they are able to do in a 'more serious' context.

Other recent conclusion is: as I train slower than my partners, when I go at the same speed and both quite fast, my advantage becomes evident. As I need (and train a lot) feints and tricks to compensate my slowness, when I go fast(er) partners freeze. Training at low speed, my technique have opportunity to be well executed, too.

Nowadays I am eating many jabs when they (get frustrated and) go 100% speed, suddenly. I don't care. I mean, I will not compensate this weakness with more speed. I will manage their fast jabs with slow, short movements, better distance management... as I'm doing with most of other things. And.. well, better jabs than hooks.
They are exhausted in minutes. I keep sparring (learning) for 1h+ long each session.

My advice is: Both partners should train slow most of the time, but you train even slower than your partner.

 

[Lameman]

Never slow sparred, but I do slow fight. I'm a thinking fighter. Precision, timing and contact, these are what are important. If you can't hit, it really doesn't matter how hard you can hit. While insticts are king during the first few seconds against an unknown attacker, the, slower, thinking fighter will be more likely to to do what is needed over an opponant who is not thinking. Slow training is also important for learning structure, energy, and movement potential. Once I learn these things about myself, I easily recognize them in others, especially when they do not understand these things. Lastly, It is better to learn something correct first and then quick. 75% is death, 25% of the time. Not that most fights end in death, but you should learn to take the fight seriously. 100% or nothing.