SKK Combos

[Gufbal1982]

23A?
Draw back into a cat stance (left leg forward) + Both hands trap and pull attacker to the right
Left foot lunges forward into a half-moon stance + left cross knife to throat + right ridgehand strike to stomach or solar plexus
Left palm heel to face + left knee buckling attacker's right knee

23B?
Draw back into a cat stance (left leg forward) + Both hands trap and pull attacker to the right
Left foot lunges forward into a half-moon stance + Left palm heel to face + Right palm heel to ribs
Left hand hooks jaw + right hand controls attacker's right shoulder
Left hand pulls to the left and right hand pulls shoulder to the right wrenching the attacker's neck.

FV still has the letters with some combinations, while USSD doesn't have those.

23A

Draw in a left cat.
Trap the arm (left hand on top, right on bottom) and pull the attacker in.
Step out into a left half moon stance, left cross hand shuto to the throat and right hand shuto to the ribs.

23B.

Draw in a left cat.
Trap the arm like in 23A.
Step inside their stance while you throw the arm out towards the left.
Left palm to the face, right palm to the groin.
Rake up with the right hand towards the face.
Right crab strike to the throat and draw in a cat.

23C.

Draw in a left cat.
Trap arm like in 23A and B
Pull the opponent to the right as you step in with a palm strike with the right to the ribs.
Upward palm to the jaw with the right.
Step behind with the right leg (so you are cheek to cheek so to speak) and grab their left shoulder.
Hip throw.
Left Tigers Claw rake to the face as you throw.

 

[RevIV]

Marlon,
Every motion that you just wrote about did not step back and attack, it stepped back, blocked and attacked.
Jesse

 

[SK101]

The simpelest analogy for the principle I am exploring is to take any cross step away from your opponent and add a back fist toward your opponent while performing the cross step. Not start too cross step then reverse direction and attack. That would be yield and attack in my humble opinion.

Does it have maximum energy? No. Will it catch an opponent trying to follow you? Maybe. It definately will make it harder for the opponent to travel through that space and follow you.

 

[SK101]

DM #24 -

X block low, X strike thraot, twin honshu strikes or inward tiger rakes, then twin eagle thumbs to eyes(Palms turned inward toward each other).

I always wondered why some masters did their katas with the salutation at chest level. Someone charges maybe for a bearhug and you deliver a scissor strike to the throat and maybe finish with the rest of 24.

The first strike brings them down then the next 3 push toward a bent back position. Hmmmmm.

This always looked like an Eagle technique to me as far as the strikes.

 

[Hand Sword]

The simpelest analogy for the principle I am exploring is to take any cross step away from your opponent and add a back fist toward your opponent while performing the cross step. Not start too cross step then reverse direction and attack. That would be yield and attack in my humble opinion.

Does it have maximum energy? No. Will it catch an opponent trying to follow you? Maybe. It definately will make it harder for the opponent to travel through that space and follow you.

It will pop if you execute it at the same time as your left foot steps out of the cross step, and lands. Use the chamber of it, across the body, to help you into the cross stance, step out with the left and fire. Try it, you should feel the difference.

 

[Hand Sword]

DM #24 -

X block low, X strike thraot, twin honshu strikes or inward tiger rakes, then twin eagle thumbs to eyes(Palms turned inward toward each other).

I always wondered why some masters did their katas with the salutation at chest level. Someone charges maybe for a bearhug and you deliver a scissor strike to the throat and maybe finish with the rest of 24.

The first strike brings them down then the next 3 push toward a bent back position. Hmmmmm.

This always looked like an Eagle technique to me as far as the strikes.

Review the combo's use in 5 kata.

 

[marlon]

Marlon,
Every motion that you just wrote about did not step back and attack, it stepped back, blocked and attacked.
Jesse

Some of then did that Jesse but others no...i think you do not have the nenglis forms it is very clear there. and if you step out of the bo a little the beginning of 2 kata there does not need to be a block...someone rushes you you step back for better rooting and rising crane to there head or your being held you step back sink your weight unbalancing then and strike. We tend to teach forms with the i dea of this move is this and then stop exploring. If you never look at combo three a bit more than you were first taught deeply you might miss a terrific arm lever /break....i guess i just look at some things differently...not better or worse just different. this is why i like this forum so others can help me 'see' a little more. thanks for everyone's opnness to sharing and looking at new ideas

Back to what you said Jesse about what i wrote, i started by saying that technically you are not moving back when you strike or forwards for that matter you must root for an effective strike...even a supposedly weak kick if properly rooted delivers what some may find surprising power. Any way if you want to call it yeilding fine by me i am more interested in the concept rather than arguing semanitcs. However, it is still a valuealbe skill to be able to fight even when you are moving backwards.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

#24
i have the right leg settles back into a left cat stance dropping the weight and double downward scissor strike to the forearm, enter in with the left leg to uke's center into a forward stance (taking the center) with a double upward scissor strikes to the neck. shuffle forward with double outward tiger claws to the face, shuffle forwads with double poison thumbs to the eyes

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

Stepping back with the left and throwing a right roundhouse kick...I would call it a weak kick, and never try it. If they are coming and you try this, expect to end up on your backside. As for the 2 kata and 5 pinion analogies, you're not moving away. You've settled in your stances when you block then strike. You momentum has come to a stop, and you deliver power in your strikes. Or, the settling of the bottom half, empowers the top half. It's a timing thing, basically. Feel the power difference of rising Chicken wristing with the left, while dropping back with the right leg, as opposed to shuffling back and chickenwristing. Closer examining of your examples will show that you're shifting parts of you, and not "moving away" per say. You yield, never retreat. That will draw them in or feign them in.

we differ about the kick (i have tried it and like everything else there are appropriate times for such a response and inappropriate times) and we seem to agree on the rest. I read your post and re read the beginning of mine and we seem to be saying the same thing except for i said moving away and you have corrected this term with yield. the never retreat idea seems very tiger to me and skk is a 5 animal system. there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position...but now i am bringing up a discussion on the book of five rings and the like that i guess do not really belong here.

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[14 Kempo]

The never retreat idea seems very tiger to me and skk is a 5 animal system. there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position

In my training, you are correct, "the never retreat" idea would be very Tiger. However, you mention the 5 animals and I would like to point out that the next line, "there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position" relates to another of the 5 animals, Leopard.

If one studiies how the Leopard hunts, it stalks, from downwind. If he wind shifts, it will retreat and reposition. There you have it. How does this relate? If you find yourself in an inferior position, step back, reposition, regain the 'superior' position.

 

[fnorfurfoot]

#24
i have the right leg settles back into a left cat stance dropping the weight and double downward scissor strike to the forearm, enter in with the left leg to uke's center into a forward stance (taking the center) with a double upward scissor strikes to the neck. shuffle forward with double outward tiger claws to the face, shuffle forwads with double poison thumbs to the eyes

Respectfully,
marlon

Your strikes are the same as mine. When we block, we step back with the right foot and then push-drag forward as needed with the strikes.

 

[fnorfurfoot]

Now that I've read yours again, I guess everything is the same accept that we don't use a cat stance, we teach it as a half-moon stance. But I can see how the cat would prepare you for the first shuffle forward.

 

[14 Kempo]

#24
i have the right leg settles back into a left cat stance dropping the weight and double downward scissor strike to the forearm, enter in with the left leg to uke's center into a forward stance (taking the center) with a double upward scissor strikes to the neck. shuffle forward with double outward tiger claws to the face, shuffle forwads with double poison thumbs to the eyes

Respectfully,
marlon

At USSD, or at least at my dojo, our initial movement on #24 is inward with the left foot using a downward crosshand block. Scissor strike to the throat. Double outward tiger rakes. Finish with poison thumbs to the eyes or orbits. Seems the only difference is the initial movement which then eliminates the shuffle forward towards the end of the technique.

 

[marlon]

In my training, you are correct, "the never retreat" idea would be very Tiger. However, you mention the 5 animals and I would like to point out that the next line, "there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position" relates to another of the 5 animals, Leopard.

If one studiies how the Leopard hunts, it stalks, from downwind. If he wind shifts, it will retreat and reposition. There you have it. How does this relate? If you find yourself in an inferior position, step back, reposition, regain the 'superior' position.

sound interesting the crane also retreats, snakes and dragons move in ways that are yielding and deceptive. This is why i like the 5 animal system. Different ways to respond to different attacks, attackers and situations.

marlon

 

[SK101]

If one studiies how the Leopard hunts, it stalks, from downwind. If he wind shifts, it will retreat and reposition. There you have it. How does this relate? If you find yourself in an inferior position, step back, reposition, regain the 'superior' position.

I hope I don't get us off message here, but I have to be a little sarcastic. If my opponent can smell me I should use a different direction?

I completly agree with the Leopard analogy. A leopard is said to strike then leave then strike and leave again. The snake uses the recoil as it's retreat/reposition. I also would see this with the crane in it's yield & attack theory. It obviously doesn't always move forward, but to be fair the comment made by someone I beleive was reposition rather than retreat and to copy someone else's post we might be talking about the same thing, but have different terms. To me and this is just me, repositioning while moving backward is reatreating. Repositioning is something military's do to avoid calling it retreating. Or rather tactical repositioning. Going home is tactical redeployment.

To me 3 out of the 5 animals use retreating or tactical reposition in order to gain superior position.

This last comment is only meant in a little bit of fun, but when the dragon flys away is that retreating or acquiring superior position?

 

[SK101]

At USSD, or at least at my dojo, our initial movement on #24 is inward with the left foot using a downward crosshand block. Scissor strike to the throat. Double outward tiger rakes. Finish with poison thumbs to the eyes or orbits. Seems the only difference is the initial movement which then eliminates the shuffle forward towards the end of the technique.

I've seen this one both ways. When we step straight in we need to focus the speed from the block to the throat attack to keep the left hand from firing or stopping it's energy if it has fired already. On both I personally like to hide in front of the opponents right shoulder after the block to avoid the left, but I was never told to do that as far as I know it's just a personnal thing.

In general does anyone know of any advantage to using a scissor block with palms up versus down?

How about advantage between poison thumbs, iron thumbs, eagle thumbs, etc.

I have seen some Martial artists place the poison thumb in line with the leopard paw knuckles while others place the thumb between the front punch and leopard paw knuckles. Anyone been given any explanations as to times when one is superior to the other?

 

[marlon]

I've seen this one both ways. When we step straight in we need to focus the speed from the block to the throat attack to keep the left hand from firing or stopping it's energy if it has fired already. On both I personally like to hide in front of the opponents right shoulder after the block to avoid the left, but I was never told to do that as far as I know it's just a personnal thing.

In general does anyone know of any advantage to using a scissor block with palms up versus down?

How about advantage between poison thumbs, iron thumbs, eagle thumbs, etc.

I have seen some Martial artists place the poison thumb in line with the leopard paw knuckles while others place the thumb between the front punch and leopard paw knuckles. Anyone been given any explanations as to times when one is superior to the other?

the palms down gives a better strike inwards for limb destruction while the palms up to me is more of a falling leaf block softer but drops the limb more. imho

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[14 Kempo]

I've seen this one both ways. When we step straight in we need to focus the speed from the block to the throat attack to keep the left hand from firing or stopping it's energy if it has fired already. On both I personally like to hide in front of the opponents right shoulder after the block to avoid the left, but I was never told to do that as far as I know it's just a personnal thing.

In general does anyone know of any advantage to using a scissor block with palms up versus down?

How about advantage between poison thumbs, iron thumbs, eagle thumbs, etc.

I have seen some Martial artists place the poison thumb in line with the leopard paw knuckles while others place the thumb between the front punch and leopard paw knuckles. Anyone been given any explanations as to times when one is superior to the other?

Agreed, it needs to be a speed move from block to scissor strike.

 

[Hand Sword]

we differ about the kick (i have tried it and like everything else there are appropriate times for such a response and inappropriate times) and we seem to agree on the rest. I read your post and re read the beginning of mine and we seem to be saying the same thing except for i said moving away and you have corrected this term with yield. the never retreat idea seems very tiger to me and skk is a 5 animal system. there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position...but now i am bringing up a discussion on the book of five rings and the like that i guess do not really belong here.

Respectfully,
marlon

Marlon, I don't know about what real experience you have ( I don't care about your rank), but, the kick (right round) after stepping back with the left, does nothing but put all of your weight (which is moving backwards) on your left foot. Since you are moving backwards, your momentum is too. The kick ends up being more of a flick. There's no power in it. Can't be, you have to put your body into your strikes, not away from them. This move I have seen countless times in Point fighting. You can do what you like sir. But, if for real, I would suggest moving into your strikes, or, if you're intent on this move, maybe, sticking the kick into the oncoming knee of the puncher, meeting the action, per say, is your best option.

As for never retreating being tiger, it could be if we're discussing the animals and the qualities. I didn't believe that we were. As I have tried to point out, once engaged, you are not retreating, but, are instead shifting yourself, leaving you in positions to hit, and counter. Retreating would take your attacker out of position to hit, but, You too. Then again this just might be an argument of semantics. Being an old schooler, I have heard this point hammered many times, by Mr. Villari, and others. Retreating is more apart of jockeying for positions pre-engagement, Shuffling, circling, etc..

 

[marlon]

perhaps you are right. i have real life experience, yes the kick is best placed at the knee or ribs. Where is your center / belt knot pointing when you land this kick (btw it was just an example i could have said side thrust) mine is at a 45 degree angle downward. as you mentioned to strike we generall stop and root. no differnce in what i am talking about. but perhaps you are right ansd i am wrong. thanks for your thoughts i will take them in to consideration. I really do not want to clutter this thread anymore with this stuff.

forever a student

Respectfully,
marlon