Buying rank

[hong kong fooey]

I agree that was totaly uncalled for. it does not matter if you are a 1 dan or not. once you get the rank of black belt you can teach

 

[Gemini]

I agree that was totaly uncalled for. it does not matter if you are a 1 dan or not. once you get the rank of black belt you can teach

With all due respect, that's a huge over-generalization. Most 1st dans know just enough to be dangerous from a Master's point of view. If that were true, why then do we need masters? We could all just get our BB's and be masters. There's an old saying "He who knows not that he knows not, becomes a fool"

Of course there are exceptions. But that's what they are. Exceptions.

 

[Fluffy]

With all due respect, that's a huge over-generalization. Most 1st dans know just enough to be dangerous from a Master's point of view. If that were true, why then do we need masters? We could all just get our BB's and be masters. There's an old saying "He who knows not that he knows not, becomes a fool"

Of course there are exceptions. But that's what they are. Exceptions.

Yup, Shodan does not mean much - only that you know the basics. Those who understand teach.......

I know plenty of 1 & 2 dans who could not teach their way out of a paper bag......

-Fluff

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

With all due respect, that's a huge over-generalization. Most 1st dans know just enough to be dangerous from a Master's point of view. If that were true, why then do we need masters? We could all just get our BB's and be masters. There's an old saying "He who knows not that he knows not, becomes a fool"

Of course there are exceptions. But that's what they are. Exceptions.

With all due respect to you, gemini, I am a first dan and teach classes, but I do not consider myself a master, because I know I'm not and never will consider myself a master, because I believe no one is a master of martial arts. Martial arts is a constantly changing universe, and everyone can always learn something new from it, wether you are a white belt or a 6th dan. I also don't believe you have to be a so called "master" to teach classes. I was teaching classes and white belts at red belt level for two reasons: One, to make myself ready to know how to teach classes when I was a black belt and two, my instructor needed the help. At black belt, you know pretty much the basics (if you go to a good school). That's what the color belts are trying to learn, the basics. Therefore, since you know the basics at first dan and the color belts want to learn the basics, a fisrt dan should be able to teach classes. As for opening a school under no other higher dan instructor, I'm not too sure about that. I wouldn't open a school on my own till at least 3rd dan, but that's just me.

Becky

 

[Gemini]

With all due respect to you, gemini, I am a first dan and teach classes, but I do not consider myself a master, because I know I'm not and never will consider myself a master, because I believe no one is a master of martial arts. Martial arts is a constantly changing universe, and everyone can always learn something new from it, wether you are a white belt or a 6th dan. I also don't believe you have to be a so called "master" to teach classes. I was teaching classes and white belts at red belt level for two reasons: One, to make myself ready to know how to teach classes when I was a black belt and two, my instructor needed the help. At black belt, you know pretty much the basics (if you go to a good school). That's what the color belts are trying to learn, the basics. Therefore, since you know the basics at first dan and the color belts want to learn the basics, a fisrt dan should be able to teach classes. As for opening a school under no other higher dan instructor, I'm not too sure about that. I wouldn't open a school on my own till at least 3rd dan, but that's just me.

Becky

That's fine, Becky. As I stated, there are exceptions and I have no issue about a BB instructing under the guidence of a master. But to make a blanket one-size-fits-all comment like:

once you get the rank of black belt you can teach

well, we'll agree to disagree here. Vehemently! I've seen too many students injured from know-it-all, wanna-be's who though, may be very capable practioners in their own right, do not have the ability to convey their knowledge to others. Little if any knowledge of body mechanics, development of mental toughness, the list goes on and on. It's not important that you know how your body mechanics work, you need to know how MY body mechanics work. Teaching is not knowing. Teaching is the ability to convey to others what you know in a means that they can learn it. It takes years of tuteladge.

If you feel that you are one of those exceptions, fine. So be it. Maybe you are. But understand that just as you feel you have the right to teach, you then must also must accept my right to say "not me or my kids you don't." I'm only a 2nd dan and one of those people who knows not that he knows not, even though I have several years of tuteladge.

 

[Flying Crane]

I see a very interesting side thread coming on here. In the past, say back in the 1950s thru 1980s, is seems that earning blackbelt was accepted as a teaching certificate. For example, there is another thread in the Kenpo section where someone posted a copy of Ed Parker's blackbelt certificate that he received from William Chow. The certificate ranks Mr. Parker at First degree black belt (or perhaps it was simply "black belt"), but also gives him authoritiy as an instructor. Very few people back then held higher level rank than first or second degree. What is it that now makes us say that a person at this level is no longer qualified to teach? It sometimes seems like the prevalence of high rank is a new phenomenon. Have standards or quality changed, so that today's first degrees are not on the same level as those from the earlier era (I personally believe that in many cases this is true) and no longer deserve the teacher authority? Is it easier today to receive higher rank than it was then? Is it all about marketing, money, control and power? Has the development of organizations and governing bodies contributed to this? Keep in mind, these organizations and their rankings, rules and regulations mean nothing to those who do not belong to them. There are some very good Independents who don't care about rank, or other's opinions, who do a hell of a job as martial artists, and instructors.

I think there are valid arguments both ways, that have been posted in this thread. I think that both Beauty in the Sai and Gemini have made statements that I can agree with. What do others think?

Personally, I believe we have all become too fixated on rank. Too many black belt levels, and too many titles attached to them. Too many rules about to what level an instructor can promote a student (two levels below the instructor, for example), before he needs to appeal to those "higher up".

I have stated this before, but I will state it again, as food for thought. What if we eliminated all the high black belt levels, and the titles that go with it? What if we had only two black belt rankings: Black Belt Non-Instructor, and Black Belt Instructor. Once someone is given Instructor authority, that is it. He can teach all he wants, and can promote students all he wants, including to Instructor level. No questions. No further rankings. Instructor authority could be granted at the same time Black Belt is granted, or it could be granted at a later date, or never, depending on what is warranted, and the judgement of the instructor. Of course this does not put an Instructor on any kind of pedestal. We all know that we have more to learn, and we know who is better than us, but why keep dangling the carrot in front of us? At this level we shouldn't need the carrot, or I say we wouldn't deserve our rank if we did.

Just my thoughts...

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I think some people just forget that not all first dans, like most belts, are created equal. I'm not the best first dan nor am I the worst. I've beat up 3rd dans that "said they were third dans". So would you want that third dan that got beat up by a first dan teaching you, just because of his rank? If people can just buy ranks, what does rank really mean? I'm only proud of my first dan because I know I earned it.

Becky

 

[green meanie]

Personally, I believe we have all become too fixated on rank. Too many black belt levels, and too many titles attached to them. Too many rules about to what level an instructor can promote a student (two levels below the instructor, for example), before he needs to appeal to those "higher up".

I have stated this before, but I will state it again, as food for thought. What if we eliminated all the high black belt levels, and the titles that go with it? What if we had only two black belt rankings: Black Belt Non-Instructor, and Black Belt Instructor. Once someone is given Instructor authority, that is it. He can teach all he wants, and can promote students all he wants, including to Instructor level. No questions. No further rankings. Instructor authority could be granted at the same time Black Belt is granted, or it could be granted at a later date, or never, depending on what is warranted, and the judgement of the instructor. Of course this does not put an Instructor on any kind of pedestal. We all know that we have more to learn, and we know who is better than us, but why keep dangling the carrot in front of us? At this level we shouldn't need the carrot, or I say we wouldn't deserve our rank if we did.

Just my thoughts...

Now you're sounding like me on this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19761

 

[Flying Crane]

Now you're sounding like me on this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19761

spread the good word!

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

Green meanie, I love your avatar!

Becky

 

[green meanie]

spread the good word!

LOL! I'm trying.

 

[green meanie]

Green meanie, I love your avatar!

Becky

Hee hee. Thanks.

 

[boricuatkd]

I have read through several of the latest comments on my post. Once again, i thank you all for your thoughts on this issue. Personally, I agree with the comment made earlier abour the fixation on rank, to some point. In the martial arts community, especially in tkd, there is the feeling that to be truly accepted in the ranks of bb. you need to be 3rd or higher because supposedly you are now truly "qualified" to pass on you knowledge. Now, I don't have as many years of training as my other half does, but the years that I have been training I have been at schools where becoming a bb whether it was poom or dan meant that you were are just now beginning on your true journey into the arts. It was believed that part of that journey was to be able to pass on what your teacher/master has taught you. Now not everyone is capable of doing that. There are many peopl out there who wonderful "students" but when comes to being "teachers" its just not in them. At some the schools I have visited, I seen 17 year bbs. do a better job at "teaching" than instructors with 3rd and 4th degrees bbs at the same school. Now does this mean that those young men know more than those instructors? No by no means do they probably have the level of knowledge or experience. But what it does mean ( at least in my opinion ) that they may have a better understanding of the break down /application or at least a better understanding on how to teach or model to some one what they need to learn. Its like in teaching: there are so many people who teach as a profession but very few are truly teachers. I wish I had a penny for every teacher who is there for a pay check and summer vacations off. But the truth of the matter is not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. (academically or in martrial arts) To be true teacher comes from the heart. Its the love of passing on what you have learned and the love for what you hoping to teach. Understanding how to pass this on to students is what makes a good teacher in alll walks of life.

 

[Rich Parsons]

With all due respect, that's a huge over-generalization. Most 1st dans know just enough to be dangerous from a Master's point of view. If that were true, why then do we need masters? We could all just get our BB's and be masters. There's an old saying "He who knows not that he knows not, becomes a fool"

Of course there are exceptions. But that's what they are. Exceptions.

I think that Black Belts should be able to teach. They should be able to teach the basics, and be able to help get students moving and understanding. Full understanding may require someone of more rank and knowledge to move them forward.

Now I do not think, and a 1st degree is not the one who should be teaching other black belts no matter the rank, but to teach the color belts the basics, it should be alright. If they cannot then maybe my understanding of a Black Belt is different than yours.

 

[Gemini]

I think that Black Belts should be able to teach.

Blanket generalization I disagree with. However, you then go on to point out more specific instances that I do agree with.

They should be able to teach the basics, and be able to help get students moving and understanding. Full understanding may require someone of more rank and knowledge to move them forward.

Now I do not think, and a 1st degree is not the one who should be teaching other black belts no matter the rank, but to teach the color belts the basics, it should be alright.

I agree with this at least to the point that it is a possibility. But, only (in most cases) under the tuteladge of a more experienced instructor. We all have to learn to teach, before we can teach.
This appears to be were the debate enters. What does everyone mean by teach? My reference is not to the ones who are learning to teach under a senior instructor, it's when we see a black belt go off with no further guidence and start teaching. Their knowledge is still extremely limited.

If they cannot then maybe my understanding of a Black Belt is different than yours.

Why? Even though someone may be an exceptional practitioner, they must also have the ability to teach or no black belt for you? We weren't all blessed with that ability. Again, it isn't specific instances I referred to. It's the sweeping generalization that I can't accept.

I think some people just forget that not all first dans, like most belts, are created equal.

Kind of ironic that this is exactly what I was trying to say in the fiirst place. You're 100% right. Not all are created equal, so how should it be that ALL can teach? I will disagree with you next statement though. This is were I think you and I part ways. You beat up bunches of 3rd degrees. How is that relevant to their ability to teach and convey information? Or yours for that matter. Ones ability to fight has very little to do with ones ability to teach. We can't all be the toughest. There are students in my school lower than myself that could probably beat me, but I have many more years of instructing than they do. By this standard, they are automatically better teachers than me?

boricuatkd, What a great post! I hadn't addressed rank per sey except for the masters, but experience and the ability to convey information to others outweighs rank? Yes. I agree. It seems the disconnect is caused by continuing to tie ones physical ability in with ones teaching ability. The 2 have very little to do with each other.

 

[green meanie]

It seems the disconnect is caused by continuing to tie ones physical ability in with ones teaching ability. The 2 have very little to do with each other.

Agreed. But both can and (in my opinion) should be taught. Or...

Even though someone may be an exceptional practitioner, they must also have the ability to teach or no black belt for you?

...exactly. No black belt for you.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Blanket generalization I disagree with. However, you then go on to point out more specific instances that I do agree with.

Never said I had the only right answer.

I agree with this at least to the point that it is a possibility. But, only (in most cases) under the tuteladge of a more experienced instructor. We all have to learn to teach, before we can teach.

And I think this should be done at the higher ranks before Black Belt so they have a basic understanding of how to teach. Even if they are not cut out for it. They have been through the basics of being in front of a class and demonstrating and explaining. The more expereinced could even be part of the class, and then give feedback after wards both publically and in private.

This appears to be were the debate enters. What does everyone mean by teach? My reference is not to the ones who are learning to teach under a senior instructor, it's when we see a black belt go off with no further guidence and start teaching. Their knowledge is still extremely limited.

To open your own school and to be able to not continue your training? I would think of this as a bad thing. You should have regular check ups and even from your instructor or organization by having people come in and teach a class and or in promoting your students.

I think of teaching as when I say to Person X, go teach the class techniques a,b & c. Or someone of rank, Black Belt or higher who could cover a class with what they know, if I have had an emergency and had to be elsewhere.

Why? Even though someone may be an exceptional practitioner, they must also have the ability to teach or no black belt for you? We weren't all blessed with that ability. Again, it isn't specific instances I referred to. It's the sweeping generalization that I can't accept.

I agree that some are great practitioners and nowhere capable of being able to teach at all. Yet I think they should have the basics, to understand how teaching is done. By explaining how something is done, enlightenment may occur. It also lets people understand how people teach and also learn.

I never said that every black belt will go out and open a school and teach great fighters.

 

[bluemtn]

I think that at black belt, you can teach. Be the master- not for everyone. I've seen too many brown and black belts (1st dan, even 4th dan) who really can't teach worth a flip, and therefore shouldn't. Everone has their own individual reasons for being in MA. For some, it's just to say they are such-and-such rank, and nothing more.

 

[Fluffy]

IMNSHO 1st Dan's can assist, 2nd Dan's can teach by themselves - but under the guidence of a senior, 3rd Dans can actually own a club.......there should be some training involved, this schedule should cover it.

 

[green meanie]

IMNSHO 1st Dan's can assist, 2nd Dan's can teach by themselves - but under the guidence of a senior, 3rd Dans can actually own a club.......there should be some training involved, this schedule should cover it.

I think this tends to be the standard that most systems follow. We use it and it's worked well for us.