Skill set - expectations?

[Bonhomme]

Recently, at my school, some black belts were 'choreographing' a fight for their promotion ceremony. There were (2) 3rd Dans and (1) 4th Dan and they were being promoted to 4th and 5th, respectively. While practicing, one of them took a pretty hard punch to the jaw. What surprised me is that the one who got punched didn't even attempt to block or evade it, so I asked why and the response was that there was confusion among the 3 of them and he wasn't expecting the punch at that time.

While I know rank standards are all over the place, but I really expected an experienced martial artist to be able to defend themselves against an unexpected strike, even if they were working out a planned 'dance'. Isn't that part of self-defense, protecting yourself from the unexpected? Am I wrong in thinking he should have been able to block or evade rather than taking that punch? Opinions?

 

[skribs]

BJ Penn was a phenomenal grappler who got his BJJ black belt in 3 years and was a UFC champion. He got knocked out in a bar fight because he underestimated his opponent.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You're never going to be able to block everything, especially from a close distance. If you did, fights would be boring since nothing would ever land.

 

[Cri70]

While I know rank standards are all over the place, but I really expected an experienced martial artist to be able to defend themselves against an unexpected strike, even if they were working out a planned 'dance'. Isn't that part of self-defense, protecting yourself from the unexpected? Am I wrong in thinking he should have been able to block or evade rather than taking that punch? Opinions?

Well, first thing precious few martial arts are about self defense: they are art - which gives full sense, for example, in investing your time in choreographing a fight. So an experienced martial artist isn't necessarily experienced at self-defense, and arguably most aren't.

Second - the mindset is everything, and visual reaction time is what it is. Nobody is ever in a full awareness state, and if you are in a friendly environment it's when you're most vulnerable - ask Julius Caesar Finally visual reaction is simply too slow to protect from an near punch - the moment your brain processes the image, it's landing. That's why (unarmed) self defense seldom relies on visual input.

 

[marvin8]

Recently, at my school, some black belts were 'choreographing' a fight for their promotion ceremony. There were (2) 3rd Dans and (1) 4th Dan and they were being promoted to 4th and 5th, respectively. While practicing, one of them took a pretty hard punch to the jaw. What surprised me is that the one who got punched didn't even attempt to block or evade it, so I asked why and the response was that there was confusion among the 3 of them and he wasn't expecting the punch at that time.

While I know rank standards are all over the place, but I really expected an experienced martial artist to be able to defend themselves against an unexpected strike, even if they were working out a planned 'dance'. Isn't that part of self-defense, protecting yourself from the unexpected? Am I wrong in thinking he should have been able to block or evade rather than taking that punch? Opinions?

If you are in punching range, it's hard to block a punch while your hands are down or crossed at your chest because of reaction time. With your hands up near your face, you have a chance to block it. An experiment showing this here.

Mick Coup's video shows it's hard to block a punch while in punching range even if your attacker telegraphs it. It's important for MAists to understand ranges, hand positions and reaction time for both defense and offense.

 

[windwalker099]

Am I wrong in thinking he should have been able to block or evade rather than taking that punch? Opinions?

Depends

On the training, and if, or how it was "burned" in.

Timing,
3 Phases:

Before: Preparing and anticipating actions before they occur.
During: Executing actions at the optimal moment while they are happening.
After: Analyzing and responding to actions after they have occurred.

3 Types of Actions:

Active: Proactively initiating actions or movements.
Reactive: Responding to actions or stimuli from others.
Passive: Maintaining a state of readiness or neutrality, allowing for observation and conservation of energy until the right moment to act.

there was confusion among the 3 of them and he wasn't expecting the punch at that time.

"Burned in" refers to training that has been deeply ingrained through repetition and practice.

Being able to "take" an unexpected punch might be a product of such training.

What you might be thinking about is called "hypervigilance."
Hypervigilance is not always beneficial if it is not needed within the environment where one spends most of their time.

Example:

A friend of mine trained to react unconsciously to changes in his environment.

One day, he mentioned that his wife approached him from behind while he was cutting meat in the kitchen.
He turned around very quickly with his knife in his hand, unaware of his reaction.

After this incident, he had to consciously de-train himself for fear of what might happen in similar situations.

 

[Bonhomme]

Thanks for the insights, it gives me good stuff to think about and helps me have a more realistic view of abilities vs situations.

 

[Gyakuto]

In such a situation, he would’ve figuratively had his guard down.

 

[JowGaWolf]

While I know rank standards are all over the place, but I really expected an experienced martial artist to be able to defend themselves against an unexpected strike, even if they were working out a planned 'dance'.

This isn't realistic. Professional fighters get hit with unexpected strikes all the time.

I really expected an experienced martial artist to be able to defend themselves against an unexpected strike, even if they were working out a planned 'dance'. Isn't that part of self-defense,

Self-Defense is for dealing with threats and not accidents from friends or fellow students who aren't seen as threats.

A choreographed fight scene means you are following a specific set of actions, and your focus is performed those specific set of actions. Sometimes things go wrong and accidents occur.

Am I wrong in thinking he should have been able to block or evade rather than taking that punch? Opinions?

I wouldn't say wrong, but practicing a fight scene where you have to follow certain actions is not a good way to apply this assumption.

This is a choregraphed fight scene. Like all fight scenes, each participant has planned actions that they must take. failure to move according to those rehearsed plans could cause great harm or result in death. Allowing your self-defense reaction to take over would be the wrong thing to do in a choreographed fight scene.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some people don't like the term "chase arm". When your opponent punches you, you punch to his punching arm.

This way of thinking is important. If you think this way, you will always be in offense mode and you will never be forced into defense mode.

There is no such thing as you punch me, I block your punch. If you punch me, I want to hurt your arm so you can't punch me anymore.

 

[Buka]

Some people don't like the term "chase arm". When your opponent punches you, you punch to his punching arm.

This way of thinking is important. If you think this way, you will always be in offense mode and you will never be forced into defense mode.

There is no such thing as you punch me, I block your punch. If you punch me, I want to hurt your arm so you can't punch me anymore.

I’m a counter fighter. I like defensive mode.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I’m a counter fighter. I like defensive mode.

You are a good guy and I'm a bad guy by definition.

I'm talking about sport fight and not street fight. In sport fight, there is no good guy and bad guy. I don't like my opponent's fists to be too close to my face. I like my fists to be close to my opponent's face. If I can keep my opponent busy to play defense, he won't have time to attack me. Most of the time, if you can touch (not punch) your opponent's face several times, he will lose desire/confidence to fight you (this works well in challenge fight).

 

[JowGaWolf]

Some people don't like the term "chase arm". When your opponent punches you, you punch to his punching arm.

This way of thinking is important. If you think this way, you will always be in offense mode and you will never be forced into defense mode.

There is no such thing as you punch me, I block your punch. If you punch me, I want to hurt your arm

You are a good guy and I'm a bad guy by definition.

I'm talking about sport fight and not street fight. In sport fight, there is no good guy and bad guy. I don't like my opponent's fists to be too close to my face. I like my fists to be close to my opponent's face. If I can keep my opponent busy to play defense, he won't have time to attack me. Most of the time, if you can touch (not punch) your opponent's face several times, he will lose desire/confidence to fight you.

I like to make my opponent worry about other things and not to be focused hitting me. The only way to do this is to occupy his mind.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like to make my opponent worry about other things and not to be focused hitting me. The only way to do this is to occupy his mind.

One good example is you keep sweeping his leg, or stomp on his knee joint.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One good example is you keep sweeping his leg, or stomp on his knee joint.

That video is a good example of one of the ways the cat stance is used.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That video is a good example of one of the ways the cat stance is used.

This is why when a student is standing in a cat stance. the instructor will sweep his leg to make sure that the student doesn't put weigh on his front leg.

 

[marvin8]

Some people don't like the term "chase arm". When your opponent punches you, you punch to his punching arm.

This way of thinking is important. If you think this way, you will always be in offense mode and you will never be forced into defense mode.

There is no such thing as you punch me, I block your punch. If you punch me, I want to hurt your arm so you can't punch me anymore.

Don't "chase hands" is a principle that should follow physics. Your strategy seems illogical and I gave a fight example of that. A punch is not a punch. I lure you to react with a punch(s) then attack your center. If you use your interpretation of 6 harmonies with all your punches, it's that much easier to control and counter you. Unless you can explain or give an example, it is impractical and doesn't follow tai chi strategy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Unless you can explain or give an example, it is impractical and doesn't follow tai chi strategy.

When my arm touches your arm, I know where your arm is. When I wrap your arm, your arm cannot punch me. If I can wrap your leading arm, there are more than 20 different throws that I can apply on you. When I pull your arm, your body will follow.

Let's use sword fight as an example. You swing your sword, and I swing my sword. You cut my head off, and I cut your body in half at the same time. If my sword can touch your sword (chase sword), I can press your sword away from me when I move in. When my sword cut into your body, your sword cannot cut me.

 

[marvin8]

When my arm touches your arm, I know where your arm is. When I wrap your arm, your arm cannot punch me. If I can wrap your leading arm, there are more than 20 different throws that I can apply on you. When I pull your arm, your body will follow.

I throw a punch, you react by chasing, punching (6H) with intent to hurt my arm. My punch was a lure. I use punch (one hand) to lure and punch or kick (other hand or leg) to attack center is better to follow. When you can't change, I change attacking your center. I follow yin-yang using both offense and defense.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I throw a punch, you react by chasing, punching (6H) with intent to hurt my arm. My punch was a lure. When you can't change, I change attacking your center. I follow yin-yang using both offense and defense. I use punch (one hand) to lure and punch or kick (other hand or leg) to attack center is easier to follow.

The way that I chase your arm is trying to use your one arm to jam your other arm. When I use my right arm to knock your left arm to your right, your right arm cannot punch me.

It's better to discuss with an example. When you throw jab-cross (linear), I throw double hooks (circular). What will happen next?

Here is an example that when you use hook to deal with jab, if your opponent changes his jab into hook, you change your hook into comb hair.