Siu Lim Tau Comparison
- Thread starter Nobody Important
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In the VT I train, bong-sau is better described as springy than ballistic. This is one of the key differences in the branches we train.
BTW the idea of the springy bong also came from Yip Man. ...in his later years. Now that I'm starting to get older myself, I can attest to the fact that you have to make adjustments in emphasis as you age. What works best when you are 20, 30, or even 50 ...doesn't always work so well as you get into your 60s and beyond! 
My knees agree with you, Geezer.BTW the idea of the springy bong also came from Yip Man. ...in his later years. Now that I'm starting to get older myself, I can attest to the fact that you have to make adjustments in emphasis as you age. What works best when you are 20, 30, or even 50 ...doesn't always work so well as you get into your 60s and beyond!
Well, VT is about attacking and supporting the attack. A bong-sau that "follows", "rides", or "lifts" is overly concerned with defending and controlling the arm it's doing these things to. We call this arm-chasing.
Plus, punches are too fast to calculate like that and you may be lifting it straight into your face.
I've never seen a punch thrown in a fight starting from pre-contact with the defender's arm where they can simply "feel" and "ride" it away.
According to a notoriously dishonest "disciple", right? Not sure why you still trust that guy.
Now that I'm starting to get older myself, I can attest to the fact that you have to make adjustments in emphasis as you age. What works best when you are 20, 30, or even 50 ...doesn't always work so well as you get into your 60s and beyond!
Maybe, but we have some geezers in our lineage who haven't made such drastic changes that alter the entire strategy and tactics of VT.
Danny T
Senior Master
^^^^ This!BTW the idea of the springy bong also came from Yip Man. ...in his later years. Now that I'm starting to get older myself, I can attest to the fact that you have to make adjustments in emphasis as you age. What works best when you are 20, 30, or even 50 ...doesn't always work so well as you get into your 60s and beyond!
Attributes and abilities change.
What I teach and how I teach my young fighters is different from what I teach my elder students. I also have a blind student, his training and practice is specific to him.
Bong can be ballistic as well as can be springy unless you are closed minded to options based upon different situations, attributes, skill level, etc.
"follow", "ride", "ballistic"......semantics only. The bottom line is that something is rising towards your face from on top of your bridge, so you lift up to deflect upward to keep from being smashed in the face. What is so difficult about that? Why would that be considered "hand chasing"?
I had a friend that train WSLVT back in the day, his usage of bong was an aggressive smash-in when used for intercepting. That's not how Eagle bong works for us. In this case (which is just one usage of many), it's just a spacial covering along center, a mid to high gate change, I'm not really sure how that could be considered chasing hands.
Cephalopod
Green Belt
This is the idea that raised the red flag for me when I saw the op's video.
In my experience, you can get away with a lifting deflection like this, even if you do maintain forward pressure, if the opponent is playing light trying to tap you on the forehead.
If the punch is delivered with power and intent, if the opponent has bigger arms than you, if there is a speed/tension/direction change in the course of the punch, then your shoulder muscles will get loaded, lock up and the opponent can yank on your stiff arm and send you flying.
As such, in my WC, a rising punch is dealt with by deflecting to the left or right rather than up, hopefully in the process opening up a path for attack.
On further thought, if the opponent tries to dis-engage from the mutual tension to punch again with the same hand but to the face...
That's much easier to deal with because my bong hand will extend to fill center...a new man-sau
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I do not disagree with this. Let me clarify....
The commonest example of the "rising bong" that I can think of is really more of a lan-sau than bong-sau and its pressure is applied forward. your pressure meeting your opponent's causes the bong to rise (or turn aside, etc.). It comes into play at close range, almost clinching range. Even boxers use bong like techniques at this range. Again I seem to recall Alan Orr had a good clip covering this.
The definition is in the reply from LFJ. Arm/hand chasing is summed up in the idea of chase centre, don't chase hand. In practice this means displacing obstructions (as required) and attacking centre, rather than sticking and following.
"Riding" and "following" therefore suggest hand chasing, but without seeing it would be hard to tell.
If the punch is delivered with power and intent, if the opponent has bigger arms than you, if there is a speed/tension/direction change in the course of the punch, then your shoulder muscles will get loaded, lock up and the opponent can yank on your stiff arm and send you flying.
---Ah! But if his intent is upward/rising....then you follow...even if "ballistically"...and are not meeting force with force. You are simply augmenting his upward intent and taking it past its target. I don't see how this could be considered "hand chasing" any more than a Pak Sau the deflects a punch off the target is considered "hand chasing."
As such, in my WC, a rising punch is dealt with by deflecting to the left or right rather than up, hopefully in the process opening up a path for attack.
---In Pin Sun we would do this rising Bong with a pivot so that it is deflecting a bit to the side as it lifts and the pivot is then driving in the rising punch with the other hand. How is it "chasing" if the opponent is getting hit at the same time? If you deflect left or right, you are actually opposing the attackers force more so than if you just follow it upwards and make it go past the target. And as you rise with the Bong, you are rising with the punch! You can't do that with a Bong deflecting to the side nearly as well.
On further thought, if the opponent tries to dis-engage from the mutual tension to punch again with the same hand but to the face...
That's much easier to deal with because my bong hand will extend to fill center...a new man-sau
---Yes! Our "Hok Bong" is somewhat like a Man Sau, but with the elbow more bent.
---I will note, that in customary fashion, neither LFJ or Guy has offered a solution for this scenario from WSLVT even though they are criticizing other people's explanations. And before they go off complaining about not understanding what I'm referring to...
....let me be direct:
How would WSLVT deal with a situation where an opponent is above your bridge (both your arms are lower than his) at relatively close range and he is throwing a rising punch towards your face?
---Ah! But if his intent is upward/rising....then you follow...even if "ballistically"...and are not meeting force with force. You are simply augmenting his upward intent and taking it past its target. I don't see how this could be considered "hand chasing" any more than a Pak Sau the deflects a punch off the target is considered "hand chasing."
As such, in my WC, a rising punch is dealt with by deflecting to the left or right rather than up, hopefully in the process opening up a path for attack.
---In Pin Sun we would do this rising Bong with a pivot so that it is deflecting a bit to the side as it lifts and the pivot is then driving in the rising punch with the other hand. How is it "chasing" if the opponent is getting hit at the same time?
If you deflect left or right, you are actually opposing the attackers force more so than if you just follow it upwards and make it go past the target. And as you rise with the Bong, you are rising with the punch! You can't do that with a Bong deflecting to the side nearly as well. On further thought, if the opponent tries to dis-engage from the mutual tension to punch again with the same hand but to the face...
That's much easier to deal with because my bong hand will extend to fill center...a new man-sau
---Yes! Our "Hok Bong" is somewhat like a Man Sau, but with the elbow more bent.
---I will note, that in customary fashion, neither LFJ or Guy has offered a solution for this scenario from WSLVT even though they are criticizing other people's explanations. And before they go off complaining about not understanding what I'm referring to...
....let me be direct:How would WSLVT deal with a situation where an opponent is above your bridge (both your arms are lower than his) at relatively close range and he is throwing a rising punch towards your face?
This is not exactly the same as my Pin Sun system, but is a related off-shoot. I post this with hesitation because I realize it just opens things up to all kinds of negativity from the dynamic duo. But anyway....here at 1:08 is the Hok Bong. I don't pivot as deeply as he is, and he probably wouldn't either when using this in a real situation because it brings the Bong back too far. But it should give you an idea of what I've been talking about.
Done it with full force punches, but I'm betting what you're picturing isn't what we do. I'd totally agree that if you lock up or try to lift the bridge, you're going to be in for a world of hurt against a strong force.
One of the core differences between the YM wing chun I studied and HFY is that we're not as quick to turn left and right as this often leads to a shift/loss of center. We tend to focus more on how to "zone-in, zone-out" with one-step footwork to handle the energy, it allows us to maintain Deui Ying easier.
Unfortunately, I think we're running into one of those things we could explain physically in about 30 seconds but will spend pages with online and still end up in the wrong place =/
Cephalopod
Green Belt
I certainly appreciate this distinction.
Personally I have found that a punch to the face as you've described will not only have a vertical component that would guide my bong upward but also a more powerful horizontal component toward me that would work to collapse my bong. This is the component that I would not succeed at deflecting upward but would manage to deflect to the side.
Ah...this makes all the difference. An example of why (I hope) I would never declare a movement as wrong without knowing the full context of the system in which it's used.
Cephalopod
Green Belt
Haha...Ain't that the truth!!
When I picture lifting a bong against a full force punch it's something like this:
Probably not an accurate representation of HFY...
