Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[geezer]

There are many large problems with the Moy Yat (Yip Man) version as performed here. The HFY looks like a completely different system not focused on the same things. TWC looks like it might be a highly corrupted form of YM- if so then hard to see how it wouldn't be broken beyond repair.

My personal perspective might be much the same. But, holy moly! This is no way to begin a productive discussion on an open forum!!! Are you really surprised at the hostile you got?

How about a less confrontational approach? I will try to demonstrate what I mean:

Yes, I too see some things in the Moy Yat VT version of SNT as shown that would be counterproductive ...from the perspective of the VT I practice. For example, the very high position of the double lan-sau or "bar arms" preceeding the double fak-sau movement (left hand frame at 2:30 in the clip) would be problematic in the context of my VT.

Interestingly, when I was first taught this, we also held our sheung lan sau or "double bar-arms" nearly as high as shown here. Later, I learned to let the lan sau settle to a lower position, more in front of the chest. I found this helped me maintain a better structure, with my shoulders relaxed and down, my weight sunken, and my stance better rooted. The slightly lower position also kept my arms and energy closer to centerline and reminded me to focus my energy and intent forward.

Those would be the essential reasons. There are also concerns that could be related to common applications ...such as keeping your arms lower so that you do not get uprooted, but rather can direct the resistance you receive from your opponent downward into your stance. I believe Alan Orr did a nice video on this relating to the way he uses bong-sau to press and move an opponent. We often aply lan-sau similarly. A caveat here would be that applications are specific, situational, and limited. They can be useful to as examples to illustrate how a technique can come into play, but in my VT they are not the reason behind the movements. That is conceptual.

Anyway, that would be my quick, off-the-cuff response ...from the perspective of what I do, expressed honestly, ...but without presuming to know what the Moy Yat practitioner intended, and without being judgemental. Maybe you could try a similar approach?

 

[KPM]

Tell us again how you don't share the same opinion of William Cheung and his TWC.

Huh? That doesn't even make sense!

 

[Transk53]

Pretty much high light the case of the frog in the bottom of a well ... his universe encompass only all that he could or want to see.

I for one am glad that I don't have such a insular skill set. it just so stupid to blind oneself with that the notion that taking one viewpoint actually helps, it doesn't, it blinds.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I get the feeling this video was designed to make Moy Yat/Yip Man guys look bad and make HFY look good while piquing people's interest at its apparent similarity to TWC.

As a person that doesn't do Wing Chun, I couldn't tell who was looking bad or not. The most that I saw as some mechanics issues where the punch wasn't connected to the core, but things like that aren't a big deal for me. It says more about the person doing the Wing Chun than about the system and these guys can only do Wing Chun to the best of their abilities.

But for all of these other things that Wing Chun people say such as "Make style Wing Chun style A look bad" isn't going to register with people outside of Wing Chun. The most they are going to do is look for similarities that Wing Chun has in their systems and critique that. If you are worried about looking bad to the outsider than don't. If you are worried about looking bad to an insider than don't. You Wing Chun guys are trenched in pretty good, so a video like this isn't going to change you mind about what you do.

To your point Jow, the reason you likely see more comparison of one's SNT to another's SNT or focus on that is that it contains the "seed" techniques and essentially the conceptual base for the system, far more than the other forms do. Differences between different versions of SNT highlight where lineages have changed or diverged from each other, not just a change to individual techniques, but likely the concept behind it.

Thanks, this makes sense to me as it is something that I would expect to naturally happen within fighting systems as they are passed down through the generations. The more students and teachers one has in a system, the faster and more wide spread the changes will be.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, I too see some things in the Moy Yat VT version of SNT as shown that would be counterproductive ...from the perspective of the VT I practice. For example, the very high position of the double lan-sau or "bar arms" preceeding the double fak-sau movement (left hand frame at 2:30 in the clip) would be problematic in the context of my VT.

This is probably an issue of the practitioner and not the style. For example,when I see someone do something in wrong in Jow Ga, I don't stay the way Jow Ga does it is wrong. I say the way the practitioner is doing is not the way that most schools teach, or I'll pull out the application of that technique and explain why it needs to be performed a certain way. Everyone who does wing chun isn't going to be good at it and that includes some of the sifus who teaches it. If the teacher doesn't understand the application and why a technique must be done a certain way then, it's only natural that there will be some techniques that are less stellar than say someone form your school.

And this is how you presented your case of why it's incorrect for your school. The detail that you gave is useful information. It allows other Wing Chun practitioners to think about why they may do things a certain way. Jow Ga has a move that's similar to the double lan-sau and the double fak-sau movement, and your explanation made me think about how that similar move is done in a non-Wing Chun martial arts

Later, I learned to let the lan sau settle to a lower position, more in front of the chest. I found this helped me maintain a better structure, with my shoulders relaxed and down, my weight sunken, and my stance better rooted. The slightly lower position also kept my arms and energy closer to centerline and reminded me to focus my energy and intent forward.

This statement is true in Jow Ga. the only different is the degree in which the arms are crossed. In Wing Chun your arms are on top of each other in Jow Ga the arms are crossed to where my hands are not on my shoulder and my arms for a cross. Based on how you described this, I can only assume that these techniques have similar purposes

The guy on the right (red and black) does the lan sau closer to the way that it was taught to me. That the drop that follows the double lan sau has purpose. The guy in the middle drops his lan sau as well so in my eyes it's the same technique in Wing Chun, however the guy on the left never drops his. It doesn't mean that it's wrong it just means that from my perspective in what I train in, there is something that usually comes after that move, normally it's a drop or collapse type movement because of what the double lan sau does. I don't know if the follow up technique was intentionally left out or if the technique that follows is a legitimate technique that can be used after the double lan sau. Of course all of this is wrong if my assumption about the Wing Chun double lan sau is wrong.

 

[Mattattack]

Wing Chun is very diverse. Unfortunately a lot of branches are held in comparison to Yip Man branch as the standard of accepted practice. In reality this just isn't true. Many branches are much older, and as such contain much more diverse material.

Which is exactly why watching this video was interesting for me as a practitioner from a Yip Man branch. Neat!

To your point Jow, the reason you likely see more comparison of one's SNT to another's SNT or focus on that is that it contains the "seed" techniques and essentially the conceptual base for the system, far more than the other forms do

Very true. That's one thing I like about Wing Chun. I've learned SNT, Chum Kiu, and I'm learning some of the Chi Sao sections if that tells you where I am about now, and SNT keeps becoming more and more important as I train.

I made a T-shirt to train in with something my teacher said on the back "Siu Nim Tao Much?"

You Wing Chun guys are trenched in pretty good, so a video like this isn't going to change you mind about what you do.

Yeah, I'm continually shocked by how vociferous it can get.

 

[Transk53]

Which is exactly why watching this video was interesting for me as a practitioner from a Yip Man branch. Neat!



Very true. That's one thing I like about Wing Chun. I've learned SNT, Chum Kiu, and I'm learning some of the Chi Sao sections if that tells you where I am about now, and SNT keeps becoming more and more important as I train.

I made a T-shirt to train in with something my teacher said on the back "Siu Nim Tao Much?"



Yeah, I'm continually shocked by how vociferous it can get.

Yeah once sets of fingers get warmed up for the KB, then overly so

 

[guy b]

They aren't your method, they are their own.

If they are a different method then why would anyone be offended if they wouldn't work according to YM VT?

I don't remember asking you how your YM VT works.

You posted a clip comparing a flawed version of YM VT SNT vs apparently similar forms from other systems on a public forum. If you don't want any comment then suggest you PM them privately to people you think might be interested.

 

[geezer]

If they are a different method then why would anyone be offended if they wouldn't work according to YM VT?.

Yet, to judge by all the negative responses, once again you came of as insufferably rude in the eyes of just about everybody else here. And you ask, "why would anyone be offended?" ...Gee, I wonder!

 

[guy b]

Yet, to judge by all the negative responses, once again you came of as insufferably rude in the eyes of just about everybody else here. And you ask, "why would anyone be offended?" ...Gee, I wonder!

I would say at this point it is a knee jerk reaction

 

[Nobody Important]

If they are a different method then why would anyone be offended if they wouldn't work according to YM VT?



You posted a clip comparing a flawed version of YM VT SNT vs apparently similar forms from other systems on a public forum. If you don't want any comment then suggest you PM them privately to people you think might be interested.

It appears it's you who gets offended when YM VT doesn't work according to other systems.

I never said it was flawed, you assumed because it is different to yours. I don't judge a system by one practitioner, just as I don't judge a practitioner by their system. Someday maybe you'll understand that.

Lastly, this conversation is finished. You've said your piece. This thread isn't about, broken, inferior or illegitimate. It's about the variety present within Wing Chun, let's try to leave the negativity and politics out of it.

 

[KPM]

I would say at this point it is a knee jerk reaction

So....are you saying that you have been "insufferably rude" here so often that people have just come to expect it of you???

 

[Nobody Important]

Remember to keep in mind that when watching someone performing a form that they may not be thinking the same as you. Your purpose & understanding for doing a movement may not be the same as theirs. Where you emphasize push they my emphasize lift. It's all about application, without it, it's impossible to tell intention. All this "It wouldn't work in my system" nonsense is moot. Without having intimate knowledge of how their methodology interplays with the movements it all just speculation. What you see as a block maybe a strike or lock to them. Best thing to do instead of speculate & judge is to ask why. Siu Lim Tau is "Little Imagination" not "Little Written in Stone".

 

[KPM]

Uh-oh! You said "application"!!!!

 

[Nobody Important]

@JowGaWolf

I'll be labeled as a heretic for this, but, Jow Ga has a fair amount of Hung Gar influence. I'm of the belief that Hung Gar, especially Lam family, has a good deal of Wing Chun in it, though expressed differently to the mainstream stuff. My question is , does Jow Ga have a set similar to Lam family Tiger & Crane's that contains the short bridge opening? If so what is your impression as to it's purpose?

 

[Transk53]

You know what this getting ridiculous. I have been in the sin bin, and embarrassing so. Yes I am going to get in trouble here, but please, how much longer does any member, have to put up with Guy B, and LFJ collaborating, and trolling? IMHO of course.

 

[Cephalopod]

Hey!
I have a very particular question about the vid, especially for anyone familiar with HFY:

At 3:23 the HFY guy (in the center) forms a bong sau and then lifts it straight up into, well, a high bong sau.

A lifting movement with the elbow pronated like this would just annihilate my shoulder if it was against any kind of resistance.

Any idea what is being trained?

 

[Mattattack]

Im kind of afraid to say anything about anything on this thread

 

[Cephalopod]

Im kind of afraid to say anything about anything on this thread

Noooo!
The reasonable level-headed folks must re-take the thread!!
We will rule by superior numbers!!

 

[Nobody Important]

Im kind of afraid to say anything about anything on this thread

Please don't be. Feel free to state or inquire about any thought you have. As long as you aren't divisive or trolling you'll be alright.