Sir and Ma'am

[KangTsai]

How do you say sir and ma'am in Korean? I recently learned that yes is "ney" and no is "anio", but what about "yes, sir" or "no, ma'am"? Or is that not a part of the Korean culture?

There is no such thing. You can address them by title if you want.

 

[WaterGal]

I do think that if people cannot pronounce the Japanese properly ( in TKD's case obviously Korean) it would be better to just use the normal language spoken. Often the incorrect pronunciations are passed from instructor to student and onwards so in the end it's sounding like nothing a Japanese person would recognise. I saw a visiting Japanese instructor at a seminar once who used the correct commands and a few people couldn't understood them, it was embarrassing.

Was thinking about this today... I've definitely heard some very dodgy Korean pronunciation from people whose, like, teacher's teacher's teacher's teacher was Korean. I remember one kid, we'd count to 8 in Korean while stretching, and he'd confidently shout out "Hannah! Door! etc etc, etc, Eagle! Yellow!".

I have to keep on my toes as far as pronunciation goes, though! There's a decently-sized Korean-American community around here, and we're the only KKW TKD school within about 20 minutes drive radius, so we have a bunch of students with Korean ancestry, some of whom I know speak Korean at home.

 

[Steve]

In the U.S. military we don't salute the person; we salute the 'rank'. Non coms salute all Officer Ranks. The lower level Officer salutes the rank of a higher Officer.

We are saluting the rank, but to be even more specific, we salute the uniform. If an officer is out of uniform (including wearing a uniform incorrectly or out of regulation), no salute is required regardless of rank. And everyone salutes medal of honor recipients.

 

[Steve]

Yes, customs are so different. "Toffs" that would be like the Landed Gentry?

Some Americans would be upset at being called "boy", yes, especially Americans of color. That would be racially insulting.
As for "boss" usually a symbol of respect, at least in my experience. As would be "Big Dog" (popular where I grew up.)

Whatever manners are appropriate where one lives....I think everyone should have them. Especially kids. Especially Martial Artists.

I don't know of any adult male who would appreciate being called "boy" or "son." Wherever I've lived, that's an intentional slight.

"Boss" isn't used much, and I don't think it's considered an insult. My neighbor is hosting a couple of Canadian hockey players. They're a couple of kids about 19 or so years old, and they call everyone "bud." I don't think anyone minds, but it does sound a little wierd.

 

[Rough Rider]

If an officer is out of uniform (including wearing a uniform incorrectly or out of regulation), no salute is required regardless of rank.

Not true. If you see someone in civilian clothing who you know to be an officer, and you are in uniform, you are supposed to salute.

 

[Steve]

Out of Army Regulation 600-25: i. Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate, or both are— (1) In civilian attire

From the Airman Handbook in the USAF, "salutes are exchanged upon recognition between officers or warrant officers and enlisted members of the Armed Forces when they are in uniform." An Airman may salute an officer who is in civilian attire, but it is not required.

I didn't look up Navy or Marines, but I suspect they are similar.

Edit: Just to add, I want to be clear that required isn't the same as recommended. If I knew the person was an officer AND I was in uniform, AND I was outside, I'd probably salute as a courtesy.

 

[Buka]

One of the things I've always loved about Hawaii is that little kids address every adult male as "Uncle" and every adult female as "Auntie". It's just what they do. I've always found it so charming.

 

[Rough Rider]

Out of Army Regulation 600-25: i. Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate, or both are— (1) In civilian attire

From the Airman Handbook in the USAF, "salutes are exchanged upon recognition between officers or warrant officers and enlisted members of the Armed Forces when they are in uniform." An Airman may salute an officer who is in civilian attire, but it is not required.

I didn't look up Navy or Marines, but I suspect they are similar.

Edit: Just to add, I want to be clear that required isn't the same as recommended. If I knew the person was an officer AND I was in uniform, AND I was outside, I'd probably salute as a courtesy.

Well, I was Navy, so here's my source:

Basic Military Requirements NAVEDTRA 14325 CH 9-6

In Civilian Clothes
If you are in uniform and recognize an officer in civilian clothes, you should initiate the proper greeting and salute. In time of war, however, an officer not in uniform may be deliberately avoiding disclosure of his/her identity, so you should be cautious in following the normal peacetime rule.

Gotta love the US military to contradict itself.

 

[Steve]

Well, I was Navy, so here's my source:

Basic Military Requirements NAVEDTRA 14325 CH 9-6

In Civilian Clothes
If you are in uniform and recognize an officer in civilian clothes, you should initiate the proper greeting and salute. In time of war, however, an officer not in uniform may be deliberately avoiding disclosure of his/her identity, so you should be cautious in following the normal peacetime rule.

Gotta love the US military to contradict itself.

For the record, I was in the Air Force. My brothers were navy and army. They tell me the USAF is an honorable alternative to military service.

 

[Tez3]

One of the things I've always loved about Hawaii is that little kids address every adult male as "Uncle" and every adult female as "Auntie". It's just what they do. I've always found it so charming.

The Indian, Pakistani and Nepalese community do that too, it is charming, polite without being ingratiating.

 

[Tez3]

Yes, customs are so different. "Toffs" that would be like the Landed Gentry?

Some Americans would be upset at being called "boy", yes, especially Americans of color. That would be racially insulting.
As for "boss" usually a symbol of respect, at least in my experience. As would be "Big Dog" (popular where I grew up.)

Whatever manners are appropriate where one lives....I think everyone should have them. Especially kids. Especially Martial Artists.

Toffs originally would have been the landed gentry but are usually considered to be anyone who talks 'posh' or has money now.

An American poster on here went mad because another poster who was disagreeing with him called him 'boss', I remember it was a bit of a kerfuffle. I don't know if the person who used the word meant it in the way it was taken but it was certainly taken as an insult. In South Africa I know it's got connotations we don't have in the UK. 'Boy' is used in a couple of regional dialects here for any male but isn't used much other than for actual boys.

I totally agree about manners, I think though that perhaps martial arts should be careful though and not turn classes into a quasi military environment where the teaching of manners is actually just a controlling device and one where the instructors have their egos stroked by being called sir hence my comment about reprimands being harsh. Any place where 'sir' is in every sentence worries me, general politeness doesn't need 'sir yes sir' in every sentence uttered. It does tend to come with lots of bowing too, there's also an air of subservience which is unpleasant. I think most people know the type of place I mean.

 

[Buka]

Toffs originally would have been the landed gentry but are usually considered to be anyone who talks 'posh' or has money now.

An American poster on here went mad because another poster who was disagreeing with him called him 'boss', I remember it was a bit of a kerfuffle. I don't know if the person who used the word meant it in the way it was taken but it was certainly taken as an insult. In South Africa I know it's got connotations we don't have in the UK. 'Boy' is used in a couple of regional dialects here for any male but isn't used much other than for actual boys.

I totally agree about manners, I think though that perhaps martial arts should be careful though and not turn classes into a quasi military environment where the teaching of manners is actually just a controlling device and one where the instructors have their egos stroked by being called sir hence my comment about reprimands being harsh. Any place where 'sir' is in every sentence worries me, general politeness doesn't need 'sir yes sir' in every sentence uttered. It does tend to come with lots of bowing too, there's also an air of subservience which is unpleasant. I think most people know the type of place I mean.

Sir in every sentence? Oh, God no. That would be....I don't know what that would be. It's primarily used (at least with us) when answering, or addressing, people outside of your classmates or instructors. Although if one of the instructors asked "Can you do that?" A "yes, sir" with a confident nod and smile would be most appropriate. But I tell ya, if a student was speaking with a parent in the dojo, or a visitor, and didn't use sir or ma'am (but NOT in every sentence, that would be silly) they're getting their butt handed to them.

 

[KangTsai]

Most of the form names do not translate very well. Keumgang, is the name of a mountain tied to a Korean mythological figure (think a Korean Arthur and you'll be close), it also means "diamond" and "hardness" and "immovability" so I think calling it Keumgang is better. Yes, it'll be mispronounced sometimes, but I've not found this to be a major problem. Most people can be taught to pronounce it well enough to be understood.
And let's be honest... the Yorkshire accent is difficult to understand even when they're speaking English...

You pronounce it 'gimgung' by the way.

 

[KangTsai]

Though to answer your "yes, sir" "no, sir" thing.
Ney and Anee-yo are pretty much the equivalent and respectful enough. I suppose if you were being very formal
Algey-sibnida would be a yes, sir. and An-ibnida for no. But again those are very formal.

At military/not casual-formal difference it's more 예 or 아닙니다.

Again, source: Korean is my first language.

 

[KangTsai]

I would say either "Keumgang halgo-eh-yo, sabumnim" or "Keumgang sabumnim". The first one means "I'll do Keumgang, honourable master", the second one just means "Keumgang, honourable master".

You shouldn't refer to yourself as Sabumnim, only Sabum, but adding -nim makes it more polite when talking to someone else.

However, this is quite normal internationally; to be asked the question in English, reply with the name of a poomsae (which happens to be Korean) in an English reply, and then be given a Korean command to start. So don't worry too much about it.

You can say '금강품세 시작합니다.' To sound professional. If your instructor demands you say 사범님, which is really cheesy and awkward, say "사범 [pause] 님!"(this is military). To pronounce Korean properly, never have your tongue in contact with your teeth.

From a Korean speaker.

 

[Tez3]

if a student was speaking with a parent in the dojo, or a visitor, and didn't use sir or ma'am (but NOT in every sentence, that would be silly) they're getting their butt handed to them

Here, Mr. or Mrs would be appropriate ( as it would be outside classes) though many of our parents are addressed by their rank and/or name as in Capt. Sgt. etc. depending on how the children knew them. The army regimental system is very much as family thing, literally, many of the soldiers are related through generations and also marry members of other of the regiments families so often they are addressed by the familial name ie uncle, auntie.
Polite here as I said would be Mr. Miss and Mrs. even without the surname. All female teachers regardless of anything are 'Miss'.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just as a thing on pronunciations, ma'am Pronunciation in English.
The other thing is women are addressed as 'Madam' or 'Miss' when being polite, only the Queen and serving military officers are 'ma'am'.

All our regional accents are difficult to understand lol.

This is certainly true in the UK, but it's important to remember that the vast majority of the English speaking world is not part of the UK.

 

[Tez3]

This is certainly true in the UK, but it's important to remember that the vast majority of the English speaking world is not part of the UK.

I do actually realise that which is why I always say 'here' or 'we' and why I also take the time to tell people what we do as I know others don't do it. If I thought everyone else was part of the UK I would hardly bother explaining what we do would I?
On the point of the link, it gives the UK and the US pronunciations just because it's interesting to see the difference.

 

[Danny T]

Well, I was Navy, so here's my source:

Basic Military Requirements NAVEDTRA 14325 CH 9-6

In Civilian Clothes
If you are in uniform and recognize an officer in civilian clothes, you should initiate the proper greeting and salute. In time of war, however, an officer not in uniform may be deliberately avoiding disclosure of his/her identity, so you should be cautious in following the normal peacetime rule.

Gotta love the US military to contradict itself.

The key word is 'should'
Should = it is to be done depending upon the situation. It is not required
Shall or Required = it is to be done no matter what the situation is.

 

[Tez3]

The key word is 'should'
Should = it is to be done depending upon the situation. It is not required
Shall or Required = it is to be done no matter what the situation is.

We stopped 'recognising' military people out of uniform in about 1969/70 when the Northern Ireland situation kicked off. It's only in the past couple of years that the wearing of uniform off camp/base has been allowed. Officers out of uniform aren't saluted though anyway, a soldier would brace up instead to show they recognised the officer.