Sinking you Chi in WC?

[JadecloudAlchemist]

To be truly open minded you need to also understand Chinese culture and not force western thought on it. If you understand Chinese culture dantien and qi are not religious at all. Taking this to religion is a western misunderstanding of things Chinese much the same way many westerners take Shen which translates as spirit to be religious when in fact it is just talking about the mind from a Chinese POV. And if you talk to many Chinese there is nothing mystical about any of it, again this is a lack of understanding form a western POV.

To a TCM Doc it is not religious at all actually. It is no more religious than Anatomy and Physiology are to a western MD. To a CMA person it is just part of the training and again no more religious than pushups are to a western boxer.

You will find dantien and qi in eastern religions and philosophy but you will also find chairs and pillows there as well and they are not religious either just something that the religion uses.

I think that is the main problem is the classification. Holmes Welch in his 1957 work Taoismarting of the way spoke about Taoism and medicine and the close realtionship that existed which of couse many scholars in the West IMO easily can get the two mixed up. I am going to talk about a Japanese word for a second because me and my wife and the Electroic Kanji translator dictonary were discussing. The Kanji:Shu 修. I read it more as asceticism she reads it more as special training(she does not know the word ascetic) the Dictionary reads it more as training(but what type?)

So the idea of going from one cultures defination into another and then by actual writing of the word and a dictionary can lead to all sorts of confusion. On top of that the whole structure of ancient writing with its cryptical mess who knows what the real message is.

I think as you say Xue Shen just means spirit as well. In Japanese it is Shin(interesting note that Ki=Qi but Chi=Blood in Japanese)IMO I think depending on who you are talking to the concept changes. Example of my Shu 修 I think if I spoke with a monk about it he would think oh ya asceticism but average person would think the training like a sushi chef goes thru(special training ala asceticism) Anyway I am sure we are way off topic.

 

[skinters]

To be truly open minded you need to also understand Chinese culture and not force western thought on it. If you understand Chinese culture dantien and qi are not religious at all. Taking this to religion is a western misunderstanding of things Chinese much the same way many westerners take Shen which translates as spirit to be religious when in fact it is just talking about the mind from a Chinese POV. And if you talk to many Chinese there is nothing mystical about any of it, again this is a lack of understanding form a western POV.

To a TCM Doc it is not religious at all actually. It is no more religious than Anatomy and Physiology are to a western MD. To a CMA person it is just part of the training and again no more religious than pushups are to a western boxer.

You will find dantien and qi in eastern religions and philosophy but you will also find chairs and pillows there as well and they are not religious either just something that the religion uses.

ok not a religion in the true sense of the word.

The earliest texts that speak of chi give some indications of how the concept developed. The philosopher modi (also known as Mo Zi or "Master Mo") used the word chi to refer to noxious vapors that would in due time arise from a corpse were it not buried at a sufficient depth.its strange how interpretations can and did in those times like a lot of things change from person to person and time to time,even Confucius spoke of chi and it can be combined with the Chinese word for blood (xue-qi, blood and breath) and that concept can be used to account for motivational characteristics. ie open to interpretation.

when you study the historical record, its interesting to see that there was indeed no universal explanation for chi,amongst the chinese,(again im only refering to the historical record not my interpretation) and word chi was even used to describe steam rising off boiled rise.it can also be assumed that there are many chinese who question others interpretations or exsistance of what chi is,much like some westerners might do.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

There are diffent types of Qi. So the Qi Mo tzu spoke about coming from the dead may be different from the Qi used in another wording. You wrote noxious gas and I am sure the ideogram Qi may be there. But if there is another ideogram before it or after it that could change the meaning of the word. I have seen the word Qi translated as Vapor but IMO because of the many different types of Qi I don't think it justify the meaning as energy does. The orginal Hanzi does have the vapors coming off cooked rice but IMO it is not so much the product ending with vapor but the actual action(energy) needed to produce the vapor that is Qi. So it is the actual cooking IMO that makes the Hanzi for Qi because IMO Qi=energy.

It is also My opinion that the majorityof Qi inside the body is mitrochondria. The ideogram for breath is a different Qi then this one 氣

The earliest way of writing qi consisted of three wavy lines, used to represent one's breath seen on a cold day-Wiki

Yes we can see this in 气 Steam(Yun) But I don't know what reference this Ideogram was used in and what ancient books if any.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

The problem is the models of the world used.

Accupunture, Qi and Daoist phisiology and anatomy work on different assumptions and rules than Medical Sciences.

Interestingly enough, they both have great success and results. Yet the basic assumptions are not very compatible, and they need not be, since they work on different aspects of the Human Being.

One mainly biochemical, and the other in more subtle, neurostimulant, "energetic" way.

"Sinking Qi" might mean a lot of things, like focus of intent, which has definite and significant effect on physical execution;

lowering of the stance as to increase alignment of forces and friction as to tranfer more mechanical kinetic energy into the target of a strike;

increase in structure and stability as to generate more power; etc.

There are definite methods to increase each, yet calling it Sinking Qi is ambigous way to describe what, and doesn't really describe how.

Hope that helps.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Actually if you focus on dan tien you feel and notice results. Including more energy. Tingling sensation going through your body. Hands tingling an after awhile it will feel like a wave or analog wave pulsationg through your hands and feet. The use of Dan Tians have different purposes...the lower dan tian in my opinion is where you distribute the power.

As for western thought lets make it simple.

Can you explain what air is? what does it look or taste like. Surely you can feel the air...But is it really there. I mean you can see it. You may see dirt or dust particles carried in the air but you can not see actual air. You may say water vapor being carried by the air. But you never see the air. So one can say the air can be felt but not seen. So the Chi can be felt but not see.


According to KJV Bible the Spirit is the wind air and breath. With out the spirit you dont have life. Also you can not see the spirit. No one has ever seen the spirit in all of history. But the average Westerner still believes they have a spirit. The spirit is Methaphyiscal not western science. Wester Science can not tell you what the spirit feels like,what color it is,what it looks like. Does the spirit have a taste. What about the soul can you tell me what the soul is? what about emotions what do they look like? What color are the emotions? Do they have a form or taste. What about your thoughts. Were do they come from? How is it possible for the human body to think talk and move?


Can science prove these things...no they have theories for the soul,spirit,thoughts,energy.

The Chi is consider energy. With out energy we do not have life. How do your cells get energy. From the air and sunlight we get energy. Thats why some Tai Chi people always say to do forms in a park with lots of trees to take in all that oxygen and chi. Also we get energy from certain foods. So in eating you also obtain energy. Certain movements also help cultivate chi as well..

When you do push ups you cultivate chi. When you meditate and breath your cultivating chi. When you run an breath you are cultivating chi.

As for the heaven gate or Third Dan Tien. We know in the west that the peniel or optic nerve is attributed to many things that have been unexplained. In many Western Cultures they speak of Pitutary Gland behind the skull. Its known as the Third Eye.

If you doubt the lower Dan Tien it doesn't mean it doesnt exist. Like many people deny the existence of Yahweh but he still exist. Our western view of the soul and spirit comes from a eastern religion of the hebrews. The hebrew word for Soul is Nefesh and the Hebrew word for spirit is Ruach.

TheActually proper english translation for nefesh is Seat of emotions,loins,thoughts etc.

The Actual proper english translation for Ruach is Wind, Breath or Air!

So in the west we translates words an loose the actual meaning of them. We need to keep the original meaning an stop trying to hellenize everything or make it into western ideology. Westerns have alot to learn from less develop societies. This whole Superior Western view is wrong. In fact Science doesnt have all the answers. If it did there would be an answer to what the Spirit is!

So if there is no such thing as Chi because science can not explain it then that must mean you do not have Ruach and Nefesh?

Do you agree skinters?

to me all this dan tian,chi etc is just another name for proper relaxation and body mechanics .

a good book worth reading is the inteligent warrior by steve jones,he talks a lot about the use of centre,and chi.

one of the things i picked up on is where to you keep the mind focus etc,some believe to keep the lower part of the abdomen just below the navel .this is fair enough and not a bad idea,but if you try to keep the mind inprisoned in the lower region of the abdomen,the idea of keeping it there will prevent the mind from operating anywhere else,and will result in the opposite to what is originaly intended.

when you put your mind and focus in a particular area say the arm the arm then becomes imprisoned and the rest of the body feels inconvenienced.the thing is to let the mind completly fill up the whole body,let it flow through your entire being.the localization of the mind on one particular area means it is frozen.

i could go on,but to me your body is one unit each part relying on the other to complete an action with good balance and form,martial art or otherwise.

 

[skinters]

Can you explain what air is? what does it look or taste like. Surely you can feel the air...But is it really there. I mean you can see it. You may see dirt or dust particles carried in the air but you can not see actual air. You may say water vapor being carried by the air. But you never see the air. So one can say the air can be felt but not seen. So the Chi can be felt but not see.

can i explain what air is ? ill give it a shot we cant see air partly because it is a gas, clean air reflects so little light that it seems transparent over short distances such as a mile or two. Even relatively clean, thin air like that in the high mountains will look hazy at distances of 20 miles or more.
The molecules that make up air (nitrogen, oxygen, water vapor, carbondioxide, argon) just don't happen to absorb light in the wavelengths our eyes can see. Infrared light is absorbed quite well by water vapor, and most of the gases in air strongly absorb short-wave ultraviolet.

as for the rest you use a lot of religious overtones,and feel your touching on quite a touchy subject.you make a connection with chi etc and religion,and just further raises my scepticism.

do i agree? not really the point,im not trying to debunk what your saying either way just responding .

 

[Xue Sheng]

ok not a religion in the true sense of the word.

The earliest texts that speak of chi give some indications of how the concept developed. The philosopher modi (also known as Mo Zi or "Master Mo") used the word chi to refer to noxious vapors that would in due time arise from a corpse were it not buried at a sufficient depth.its strange how interpretations can and did in those times like a lot of things change from person to person and time to time,even Confucius spoke of chi and it can be combined with the Chinese word for blood (xue-qi, blood and breath) and that concept can be used to account for motivational characteristics. ie open to interpretation.

when you study the historical record, its interesting to see that there was indeed no universal explanation for chi,amongst the chinese,(again im only refering to the historical record not my interpretation) and word chi was even used to describe steam rising off boiled rise.it can also be assumed that there are many chinese who question others interpretations or exsistance of what chi is,much like some westerners might do.

Qi and dantien are not a religion period. Actually to Chinese Culture and the Chinese of the 21st century is about as religious as the kidney and although most priest and parishioners do have kidneys it does not make the kidney religious.

However it is interesting that you picked Mo Zi and Kong Fuzi (Confucius) since Mo Zi argued against Confucianism pretty strongly. But then there are multiple Historical Chinese texts that deal with Qi take a look at the Dragon Tiger classic sometime.

A rather good book on the topic (to bring it close to the 21st century) that is approaching it from the view of Western science since Dr Yang is an Engineer as well as looking at it from the view of Chinese culture since Dr yang is in fact Chinese. Not necessarily the be all end all of things Qi but a good book to read.

The Root of Chinese Qigong
By Yang Jwing Ming


And if you want a much more universal explanation for qi amongst the Chinese you need to come forward a bit in History (about 1000 years or so) and look to Traditional Chinese Medicine for definitions of qi and the dantien, and possibly, since we are looking at this from a Martial arts perspective you might want to look at it from a CMA perspective and not historical based on Mo Zi and Confucius. You can learn a lot form them but I would not use that in a discussion about Qi as proof or disproof. But you were also taking issue with the use of Dantien and you may also want to look to Traditional Chinese Medicine for that as well.

And you may assume that there are many Chinese question others interpretations or existence of what qi based on Mo Zi and Kong Fuzi but then you are assuming that there has been absolutely no study, thought or change in the last 2000 years in China and that would be a very bad and false assumption. Look to more modern sources and look more into the topic and don’t get partial or old explanations and run with them.

You see I come across this all the time and many years ago I was guilty of it myself but we (westerners) tend to feel that we know it all and we tend to get partial or old definitions, views or thoughts on things Chinese and run with them (my previous example of Shen for instance) and we do not look deeper. Or worse yet we don’t understand it so we try and change it to something we understand and we miss the target completely on both counts. Another example would be the vast number of Chinese metaphors that are used in definitions are enough to throw one off the trail but you need to look to the meaning behind them to get to what the heck they are talking about. But if you stop at the metaphor you might thing you have it but you likely don’t

But this is going waaaaaaay off topic so I will stop here

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Qi and dantien are not a religion period.

That is something I have been trying to do is show the difference between th religious use of Qi and Dan tien and the more modern TCM science use of it.

I think Dr. Yang was one of the first to present Qigong in a more western science meaning. It greatly influenced my views of Qigong.

IMO the term of Qi has evolved same as the practice of Qigong. We can see how it evolved from the shamans to the fang shih who mixed docturine to the external alchemy schools to the internal schools all in the mean time merging with medical,martial,scholary,and religious usuage of Qi.
I think a problem also is we have the older definations that are written into English and writers keep using the reference. Example is James Ware translates Hsien or Xian as Fairy or God when a more modern approach is immortal. But anyway back on topic..

Sinking Qi. I posted an explaination of it based on my understanding at this time(which is limited I think) Yoshiyahu care to explain it now to get the thread back on track?

Later I will share more of what my Sifu teaches about Sinking the Chi.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay I have to asked again what is Air? you gave me a bunch scientific jargon I do not understand. Can you explain what air is in layman terms. I am not a scientist...so please explain it to me simple or with Chinese terms or with hebrew terms. These are the only ways I will be able to grasp what you mean. I do not understand the Scientific talk about argon wavelengths infrared light all this molecular stuff means nothing to me...

What is Air. How was it created? What is its purpose?
What does Air smell like? Can you really see air or is just dust and dirt particles you see? What is a gas? What does gas look like? What is a Molecule...what does it look like? how do molecules feel, smell and taste?

What is infrared? what is wavelength?

lol...

can i explain what air is ? ill give it a shot we cant see air partly because it is a gas, clean air reflects so little light that it seems transparent over short distances such as a mile or two. Even relatively clean, thin air like that in the high mountains will look hazy at distances of 20 miles or more.


The molecules that make up air (nitrogen, oxygen, water vapor, carbondioxide, argon) just don't happen to absorb light in the wavelengths our eyes can see. Infrared light is absorbed quite well by water vapor, and most of the gases in air strongly absorb short-wave ultraviolet.

as for the rest you use a lot of religious overtones,and feel your touching on quite a touchy subject.you make a connection with chi etc and religion,and just further raises my scepticism.

do i agree? not really the point,im not trying to debunk what your saying either way just responding .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

i THINK THE PROBLEM IS some people have no idea what the Dan Tien or Chi is...So the idea of sinking the chi is alien to them,Therefore the post criticism instead of sharing their personal knowledge or sharing they have no idea what sinking the chi is. I enjoyed your post along with Xue and Mook Jong.


You guys are all on point.

I am also looking forward to any more WC guys sharing there thoughts of Sinking the Chi...

Does your Sifu teach it...is it apart of curriculm? Does you Sifu say Sinking the Chi is useless?


Please share more about your WC background and sinking the Chi.

That is something I have been trying to do is show the difference between th religious use of Qi and Dan tien and the more modern TCM science use of it.

I think Dr. Yang was one of the first to present Qigong in a more western science meaning. It greatly influenced my views of Qigong.

IMO the term of Qi has evolved same as the practice of Qigong. We can see how it evolved from the shamans to the fang shih who mixed docturine to the external alchemy schools to the internal schools all in the mean time merging with medical,martial,scholary,and religious usuage of Qi.
I think a problem also is we have the older definations that are written into English and writers keep using the reference. Example is James Ware translates Hsien or Xian as Fairy or God when a more modern approach is immortal. But anyway back on topic..

Sinking Qi. I posted an explaination of it based on my understanding at this time(which is limited I think) Yoshiyahu care to explain it now to get the thread back on track?

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Sinking Qi. I posted an explaination of it based on my understanding at this time(which is limited I think) Yoshiyahu care to explain it now to get the thread back on track?

I too would love to hear what you know on the subject. I get the feeling that you know more about alot of stuff than you lead to believe. I also think that you ask alot of questiones you allready know the answers to. Please share too.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well mostly what Jade and Xue have mention before on the forums concerning sinking the Chi. But as for my belief. I was fortunate to have a WC sifu who is very indepth in the internal arts. He practices has internal arts such as Baguazhang and Yang Tai Chi. So I was woundering if other Sifu's of Wing Chun teach about the Dan Tien,Chi, and sinking the chi?

I wanted to know the differences. If there any. Many People with Internal Backgrounds incorporate parts from other arts into WC. But in my research over the years I have found other Wing Chun lineages speak of Chi and Chi Gung and the Dan Tien. So I was curious to how things are all around.

I have no view point that is different really. I agree with the Three Dan Tiens. I think the heaven or third Dan Tien is attributed to many historical teachings of piturary gland or third eye. I believe its really simple really. The Kidneys and Heart play a big part in Chi distribution through the blood. I don't think the Chi is the blood. But I believe in my opinion Chi is carried through the blood. I believe the heart has alot to do with this. An Chi is stored in various parts of the body. The Chi is ciruclated through out the body.

My belief is through Exercise and Meditation one can use their thoughts to control the movements of the Chi. What I mean by Exercise is Nei Gong and Wai Gong. But this is my opinion in short.

As for sinking the Chi i believe its a combination of stance work and visualization. I believe that one should seek to root themselves into the floor/ground as to be unmovable and envision the Chi Cycling in the Dan Tien. Practice focusing on the Chi in the Dan Tien while holding Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma for thirty minutes are more. An later you begin to mentally send the Chi to different parts of your body like the hands,arms,wrist,legs, and feet.

But this is a brief summary of some of things I have been taught and studied concerning Chi and Sinking. There is much more but I have to refer to my notes. Anyway feel free to chime in anytime?

I too would love to hear what you know on the subject. I get the feeling that you know more about alot of stuff than you lead to believe. I also think that you ask alot of questiones you allready know the answers to. Please share too.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I think I said pretty much everything I know on the subject on the "Internal thread". About the sinking of Chi; I allwas got the impression that ment lowering your breathing(I hope you know what I mean becouse otherwise it would be realy hard to explain for me). Besides that I know little on the subject of Chi. As I mentioned I was never realy that into it at the time and I "filtered" most which was not purely martial. But my instructor(who had some knowledge in the area) used to say that WC forms do a pretty good job at QI gung and qi circulation...

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Thank you for your honesty and also opinion...thats what it is about sharing opinions...I am glad you had some exposure great. Any way I am still learning my self. still growing I have a long way to go.


Okay very interesting I am curious to verbiage of other WC guys since terms and wording always seem to change depending on lineage...very interesting..

I think I said pretty much everything I know on the subject on the "Internal thread". About the sinking of Chi; I allwas got the impression that ment lowering your breathing(I hope you know what I mean becouse otherwise it would be realy hard to explain for me). Besides that I know little on the subject of Chi. As I mentioned I was never realy that into it at the time and I "filtered" most which was not purely martial. But my instructor(who had some knowledge in the area) used to say that WC forms do a pretty good job at QI gung and qi circulation...

 

[Domino]

I too have heard it called 'Nim Lik' and for those who don't know reading this thread, info on the 'dan tien'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian

 

[Eric_H]

In Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, the 3 dantiens play a pretty significant part in our structural alignment as well as energy work.

As far as "sinking the chi" it's a matter of staying grounded and activating the right "body circuitry."