Wing Chun and Chi Kung

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I was thinking about this last night when I said Qihai is CV7. That is incorrect Qihai is CV6.

Why do you shutter to go to different planets?

I think that type belongs in religous Taoism. I shutter because it is to newage for me.

Isn't the Macrocosom in the microcosom

Yes. Because everything is connected.

I may be thinking of the Tao way of Chi but don't you practice the "universe" inside your body/or Qi?

If you mean returning to Tao then yes.

That's kinda the surface of what I was talking about with that meditation using the light from the sky coming into your head through your crown, the feet root to the earth and take energy from there. Take energy from heaven and earth and the microcosom inside you is pretty much the universe.

Yes alot of similar Qigong exercises do this.
Taking from nature and projecting toward nature are part of Qigong.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Well now I want to talk about the Three Dan Tiens. Can you share your knowledge of the Three Dan Tiens and their benefits and uses Jadecloud?

That is a lengthy topic I could write an article on that. I could write an article just on one Dan tien. You would have to ask more specific.

Also In my opinion Si-Je is saying what does she do to rid herself of some of energy.

Why would you want to spend time gathering Qi to waste it away?

Like for instance when you got so much energy or chi it has you like ampted or hyped up and you want to go to bed while your kid is a asleep how to you ground some of that energy or Chi so you won't be so wound up.

The mind is not stilled. It is common to feel like this when you have built up a great amount. If you do not still your heart(Xin) practice may be in vain.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, what is Qigong psychosis - DSM-IV?
How is this done to yourself, I would like to avoid such unpleasent sounding qi experiences.

Another question, do you ground your energy in eastern qigong?

To avoid it find a teacher that is a real qigong teacher. There are a lot of alleged qigong teachers out there today who really do not know qigong much beyond the 7000 forms of it they dance to. Or that make fabulous claims and demonstrations to show off their great powers of Qi that turn out to be more along the lines of they have successfully taught their students how to fall down.

But now I need to say JadecloudAlchemist has a much higher level of skill and understanding than I do of things Qigong I trained Qigong for a while but know where near the length and depth of JadecloudAlchemist. All of my Qi training these days is that which is associated with the CMA styles that I train. But this is just the long way around of saying I tend to defer all things qigong to JadecloudAlchemist because he knows more about it than I do.

But a note to why you really need a teacher, in my brand of Yang style there are 2 (2.5 if you count in strange ways like me) microcosmic orbits, one much easier than the other and mostly (or at least this is my understanding of it) for Martial Arts training one specificly for MA training (and it is much harder than if looks and sound) and all are easier to develop than the macrocosmic orbit. Also there are different ways of breathing for different purposes and this too is best undertaken with a teacher.

As to Qigong Psychosis, I again have to defer to another, my wife. I honestly wish I could get here to post an answer here but she will not but I have a few links that will explain it better than I

Qi-Gong Psychotic Reaction - Qigong Psychosis

DSM-IV as "an acute, time-limited episode characterized by dissociative, paranoid, or other psychotic or non-psychotic symptoms", and that "especially vulnerable are individuals who become overly involved" in qi-gong.

And here on page 142 of the Encyclopedia of Multicultural Psychology

 

[Si-Je]

Also In my opinion Si-Je is saying what does she do to rid herself of some of energy. Like for instance when you got so much energy or chi it has you like ampted or hyped up and you want to go to bed while your kid is a asleep how to you ground some of that energy or Chi so you won't be so wound up.

If i am wrong in my opinion I apologize Si-Je...

No, that's right. There's no reason to carry around excess Chi/energy ever. You have to train your body how to handle it and store it. If you constantly walk around with a ton of extra energy you "leak" energy. You can affect those around you and set things in motion that you may not have really inteded.

Jadecloud, the reason I release qi is because I can always get more. (that part I'm pretty good at) The source is neverending, you just have to re-charge from time to time. And there is no reason to be so consumed with collecting energy/power that I have too much for my body to handle. I would think that would cause problems too. i.e. maybe make me too hyper, testy, edgy, unfocused, etc.. Take what the body understands and build that tolerance up slowly.

Xue, that was a good article on qi physcosis. And thank you for it. I had no idea there was a official "mental dissorder" attributed to this.
But, it seems to me from that particular example anyway, that people are not accepting the knowledge that is shared with them and to take anti-physcotic medication will just end your life as a conherant human being.
Why didn't he just continue to practice taking the "advice" from himself, or his guides?
It's not like the voices were telling him to kill people, or do anything crazy. He was afraid because he didn't understand what was happening.
And now he's so drugged up he's eating wallpaper!

And if qigong has been practiced as this type of new age spritual movement, why couldn't the qi masters help him come to terms with this? Couldn't they tell him what the "voices" were? Did they not know?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

There's no reason to carry around excess Chi/energy ever. You have to train your body how to handle it and store it. If you constantly walk around with a ton of extra energy you "leak" energy. You can affect those around you and set things in motion that you may not have really inteded.

Ideally you want to fill the 12 channels and 8 extra vessels up. You are suppose to be building up Qi. In order to have Qi run smoothly thru the channels you have to build it up. If your mind is calm your Qi will be smooth. The formula goes like this Jing(essence)-Qi(energy)-Shen(spirit)-Ling Shen(supernatural spirit) or Hsien(immortal)

Jadecloud, the reason I release qi is because I can always get more.

If you are speaking of sexual practices with a partner it is not within my scope of training. I know some but not enough and those who claim to teach it or those who practice it I am highly doubtful they are practicing it correctly. Because it is seen as a crooked path(I mean we are talking about monks here) Its teachings I feel are some what secret.

I would think that would cause problems too. i.e. maybe make me too hyper, testy, edgy, unfocused, etc.. Take what the body understands and build that tolerance up slowly.

If you are feeling Hyper and so on then your mind is not clear.

The Xin(emotional mind) is causing this and who knows maybe you lead Qi in one of the Organs causing this. Maybe You built Qi up but because you do not know how to freeze the spirit(meaning the spirit is not firm in its cavity)

Why didn't he just continue to practice taking the "advice" from himself, or his guides?

I am going to say that thru the different texts on Qigong and Alchemy we do find people who say they are having dreams in which someone teaches them. I have been guilty of that too.
There is also texts in which the person would see actual gods in their body parts such as God of the Liver God of the Heart etc.
We find all sorts of supernatural stories. Now I personally put them in the catagory of religion. And this does tie in with the whole traveling to another planet mediation. Yes in the texts and sects it does exist but I think there is a thin line between religion Qigong and Qigong psychosis.
With me in having a dream about certain training things I think of it more as the Superego or higher self putting a spin on an theory more than an actual person. I don't practice anything obsecure and if you treat Qigong as more science than mysticism you most likely will not fall into Qigong pyschosis.

It's not like the voices were telling him to kill people, or do anything crazy. He was afraid because he didn't understand what was happening.
And now he's so drugged up he's eating wallpaper!

God only knows what bizzare thing it could have said such as something as bad as eat babies to gain the truest source of Qi or something.

And if qigong has been practiced as this type of new age spritual movement, why couldn't the qi masters help him come to terms with this?

Who knows if they were as whacked out as he is. Ken Cohen in one of his books spoke about meeting someone who suffered from Qigong psychosis he had the guy tire himself out so he could relax and had him just do Zhang zhan mediation until he got back to normal.

Couldn't they tell him what the "voices" were?

They may have said it was one of the eight immortals talking to him only reenforcing the belief. And there are plenty of stories about learning from them!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

But, it seems to me from that particular example anyway, that people are not accepting the knowledge that is shared with them and to take anti-physcotic medication will just end your life as a conherant human being.
Why didn't he just continue to practice taking the "advice" from himself, or his guides?

Guides? Are you talking about the voices? And to say you are seeking the help of a qigong master can mean someone who calls himself a master or someone who really is a master. But as far as my understanding goes if he were training with a "real" master in the first place they could have seen the problem at the beginning and correct it. Once the damage is done it is much harder to fix if it can be fixed at all.

All I will say is that people I know and trust as trained in and about Qigong from reputable places or from reputable lineages all say the same thing, you need a teacher and high levels are dangerous without one. Low levels can be to but that is not as common since most never really gone beyond the belief that they are training it when they are basically going through the motions.

It's not like the voices were telling him to kill people, or do anything crazy. He was afraid because he didn't understand what was happening.
And now he's so drugged up he's eating wallpaper!

And if qigong has been practiced as this type of new age spritual movement, why couldn't the qi masters help him come to terms with this? Couldn't they tell him what the "voices" were? Did they not know?

Because he was given bad direction if he was given any direction at all. The damage was done and now it may be irreversible. Look at it this way if someone does not feel well and decides to take herbs on their own without a real live well trained herbologist it can be dangerous to fatal and once you are so sick they can no longer function properly they go see an MD. Well they could have reached toxic levels of whatever herb they are taking and the MD can't fix the damage. Or he finds you have been trying to self treat a tumor that was fixable in the early stages but is malignant now.

Qigong is not magic and it can be dangerous if done wrong. Go to Beijing University of TCM and they will tell you the majority of people out there claiming great powers of qi for healing and knocking people down at a distance are fake. So how many real live qigong masters are there out there. My suspicion is there are a few, but far fewer than those that claim to be. But my suspicion is also that like the majority of the real neijia people out of China these qigong masters don’t talk about it much so they are hard to find.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

How can Chi Kung benefit you in fighting. I am not interested in Tracendal Meditation, Chakras, Buddah, Nirvana, Telepathy or any other sort of Spiritual path way. I am interested in Using Chi Kung to heal and increase health and to advance my Fighting skills.


So how can Chi be used to defeat an stronger opponent or an faster opponent?

 

[Xue Sheng]

How can Chi Kung benefit you in fighting. I am not interested in Tracendal Meditation, Chakras, Buddah, Nirvana, Telepathy or any other sort of Spiritual path way. I am interested in Using Chi Kung to heal and increase health and to advance my Fighting skills.


So how can Chi be used to defeat an stronger opponent or an faster opponent?

Lots of training for relaxation, but not total relaxation (the Chinese term escapes me for the moment) and fajing.

Simply put don't let your muscles get in the way of your power.

Look for my post on Sandao (not Sanda)

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting Post

Lots of training for relaxation, but not total relaxation (the Chinese term escapes me for the moment) and fajing.

Simply put don't let your muscles get in the way of your power.

Look for my post on Sandao (not Sanda)

 

[Si-Je]

You don't have to replenish energy by getting it from someone else, either sexually or whatever. I get it other ways, neutral ways. Collect it, cleanse it, convert it, store it.

But, thanks for the insight, I had no idea people were having such a hard time with higher levels of Qi, or really anything about how you train it or apply it. Your posts have cleared up enough for me to choose which path to train in. (there are so many)

I know your into the combat aspects more Yoshi, which are great. But, I think training what your training will help you recieve your desired results.
I like learning qi for martial arts aspects too, but feel that a greater understanding of the rest of it would only benefit one in martial arts training. Even if it's transendentalist, or weird, hokie, or strange.
All of it's pretty hokie and strange anyways, so the more you can accept, understand and embrace I feel would only help you in martial arts.
I didn't mean to derail your intention with this thread. I'm just really curious person.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just a note, if you are talking the Chinese view of Qi (energy) and its associated theory

first there are 2 types

1) Congenital Qi - Inherited from our parents that Can be conserved but not replenished
2) Acquired Qi or Post Natal Qi - Can be stored and replenished

Second

1) Good/Strong flow of qi and you are healthy
2) Bad/weak flow of qi you are sick
3) No qi you are dead.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I am totally interested in Chi for these main reasons

1.Fighting
2.Healting
3.Longetivty
4.Better Health
5.More Energy

But I wasn't saying to replenish by giving it to someone else. But you can ground it with the use of another person. I believe its called emitting Chi. Or you can just hold on to it and learn to evolve with a higher level of Chi. But as for Getting Chi Sexually. Actually I can't explain it. But I am sometimes able to sense someones energy. Or even take a little bit of it. Not from sexual contact but just from tactile contact. Not totally touching but coming close to touching. Like the hand is hoovering over the four head or chest and I feel the some of the energy pouring into me. I also like to stimulate my wife's chi by certain pressure points on her spine by lightly sliding my fingers across it and massaging or circling the meridens. There are some weird things I have picked up and learn from Chi. But my main purpose is not to give demostrations of the power of Chi or do a magic trick like a Magi. I am not looking for fame. But to use my Chi in totally advatageous way. Being able to read someones mind or enter their body I would totally abuse that. I don't need that in my life. Plus those aspects of Chi open up door ways that you may not be able to close. Spiritual door ways that cause a god(demon) to enter your body and make you crazy. The voices people Hear or Spirits that have entered their body while they were astral planning to another dimension or world. My Sifu's Sihing was into Astral Planning and even levatation. But he still can beat my Sifu fighting in actual combat. So all his Chi accomplishment are great. He may be able to break bricks, Push a Dumpster five feet a way from a palm strike. But his Sidai can beat him in Combat. No matter how much older or longer he studied or how strong his Chi,Iron Palm and Iron Body how much theory or scholarly knowledge he has He can not defeat his little brother. I rather be a better fighter. I am speaking from experience now.

Which is better to be the one everyone says he has alot of head knowledge he so very smart.

Or He is the one that has mastery skill that no one can match. He is better fighter than his older brother. Although his older brother Chi is heavier he has more skill and he is the one I will be beside if a war breaks out.

Thats my point of View. As for studing and being a book worm. I do that now on several subjects as well as Wing Chun. But I want more than to be known as Theory and Knowledge man.

You don't have to replenish energy by getting it from someone else, either sexually or whatever. I get it other ways, neutral ways. Collect it, cleanse it, convert it, store it.

But, thanks for the insight, I had no idea people were having such a hard time with higher levels of Qi, or really anything about how you train it or apply it. Your posts have cleared up enough for me to choose which path to train in. (there are so many)

I know your into the combat aspects more Yoshi, which are great. But, I think training what your training will help you recieve your desired results.
I like learning qi for martial arts aspects too, but feel that a greater understanding of the rest of it would only benefit one in martial arts training. Even if it's transendentalist, or weird, hokie, or strange.
All of it's pretty hokie and strange anyways, so the more you can accept, understand and embrace I feel would only help you in martial arts.
I didn't mean to derail your intention with this thread. I'm just really curious person.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

You guys are really going deep into the Theroy. You totally brought back to my memory about the inherited Chi. I was sharing that with my wife but I didn't know the name. We were talking about Chi you cultivate and chi your born with. Thats why some children who parents practice martial arts have an easier time learning and growing in certain arts. Because they have inherited Chi level.

So true. Its Ironic I was just talking about this Wednsday Night but totally forgot the terms for it. Ironic. I need to get my eight piece of brodcade book and studie it now. lol

Just a note, if you are talking the Chinese view of Qi (energy) and its associated theory

first there are 2 types

1) Congenital Qi - Inherited from our parents that Can be conserved but not replenished
2) Acquired Qi or Post Natal Qi - Can be stored and replenished

Second

1) Good/Strong flow of qi and you are healthy
2) Bad/weak flow of qi you are sick
3) No qi you are dead.

 

[Si-Je]

Well, all I know we had a "qi" class we did at a rec. center a couple of years ago. We had one 85 year old lady with severe athritus in her hips, knees, ankles, wrists, well, just all over. She didn't walk very well at all.
Now at first, she did meditation first sitting, then si lim tao, and a bit of qigong, and then grounded energy. And we built her up to standing for longer periods of time as the classe went.
We taught her si lim tao, chum-kiu and halfway through bil ge. All forms were done extremely slow. As she could stand for longer periods of time we did more and more form. After the forms, we'd do some qigong, then have her sit on a chair for meditation of the "inner smile" meditation. (this alowed her to replenish after building so much energy and doing alot of physical exertion, for her.) After that, we had her ground a bit through her feet, and center.

After a couple of months, they only reason she "hurt herself" is because her arthritius was all but completely gone. She'd practice inner smile meditation on her own at home too. And she was walking drastically better, more balance, no pain.
So, she decided one day she was board and was froggy enough to move her 6 ft. tall bookcase up the stairs in her house. This she did, and pulled a back muscle. Made it up the stairs without incident with the bookcase! She came to our class, Hubbie did energy work on her back, and after a couple of classes like regular, she was good to go.
We did these classes for hour and half for two days a week.
It was the coolest ever watching her become more flexable, and her posture straightening, balance becoming more sturdy, and the pained look on her face leaving more each class.
This is how Qi/chi will help you in a martial art standpoint. Without the full knowledge of the big picture, your progress won't be as complete if one just focus's on fighting prowess.
We soon got this elderly woman doing more and more martial art technique of wing chun and cane defenses. Something she never thought she could do! (she didn't need the cane anymore! lol! just carried it around because we taught her cane defense)
Anyways, to me, the "esoteric" part of qi and the practical application in martial arts progression of power are one and the same. Each a part of the other. Yin Yang, whatever.
If you learn where to strike to hurt, those same points can be used to help or heal. same same, just depends on your "intention".
This is what I've learned so far from Old chi/qi man (have no idea which "school" of energy he trained from or used. I don't think he had one, or he used all).
I do love this thread, it is really helping me relearn what was given to me as teaching, that I didn't reconize then because we were just "hanging out".
I just don't think you should have fear of qi intangled into your intention when you do this stuff. Perfect love and perfect trust is the best way, that way you don't hurt yourself or others.

 

[qwksilver61]

Here is one for all of you to chew on.I once was in a transitional period,experimenting with different arts.only about 7 mos. into Wing Tsun.I noticed that after a while I developed the so called " cinnabar palms" part of the meditative stage and also known as the "cultivation of chi" I found out Ba Gua Zhang purely by accident...started the trigram-lifting-dropping of the weighted balls (heavy bowling balls) whilst practicing the form....then...all of a sudden,I became violently Ill,taking note that no one was sick around me at the time to my knowlege,not just sick...violently Ill. I immediately dropped the training and within hours I was back to normal. Honestly I have not experienced anything like it since.I believe in the theory of meridians within the human physiology and that thay can be manipulated....heck look at Monks or people in the Military.....go figure......now I sustain high energy levels all day,but caution...anxiety levels are high.....be cognizant...suggestion... when performing SNT no distractions,no anxiety.....and above all relax! Xue sheng I believe you lead this one,this is no joke for all you serious MA people.Listen!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, I don't see that as Esoteric. That falls under healing and better health. But yea. At my Tai Chi Class there was this old guy who could barely move who came to class and after a about couple of months he was moving better than me. So I have witness that. But the problem is he didn't stay with. I guess he seen progress enough where he got rid of some of pain so he didn't need it no more. You still have to have a desire. But this old guy wasn't into the estoric stuff. He just simply did the Chi Kung and Tai Chi Form. Also there was this one guy who had cancer. He did alot of Chi Kung and Tai Chi and lived about seven more years with out cancer. An others who have had health problems at the class have reported something similiar. Especially when I get a cold I do a ton of Tai Chi and Bil Gee to burn the cold out. I also do some Chi Kung and walking the circle. It really works.

Well, all I know we had a "qi" class we did at a rec. center a couple of years ago. We had one 85 year old lady with severe athritus in her hips, knees, ankles, wrists, well, just all over. She didn't walk very well at all.
Now at first, she did meditation first sitting, then si lim tao, and a bit of qigong, and then grounded energy. And we built her up to standing for longer periods of time as the classe went.
We taught her si lim tao, chum-kiu and halfway through bil ge. All forms were done extremely slow. As she could stand for longer periods of time we did more and more form. After the forms, we'd do some qigong, then have her sit on a chair for meditation of the "inner smile" meditation. (this alowed her to replenish after building so much energy and doing alot of physical exertion, for her.) After that, we had her ground a bit through her feet, and center.

After a couple of months, they only reason she "hurt herself" is because her arthritius was all but completely gone. She'd practice inner smile meditation on her own at home too. And she was walking drastically better, more balance, no pain.
So, she decided one day she was board and was froggy enough to move her 6 ft. tall bookcase up the stairs in her house. This she did, and pulled a back muscle. Made it up the stairs without incident with the bookcase! She came to our class, Hubbie did energy work on her back, and after a couple of classes like regular, she was good to go.
We did these classes for hour and half for two days a week.
It was the coolest ever watching her become more flexable, and her posture straightening, balance becoming more sturdy, and the pained look on her face leaving more each class.
This is how Qi/chi will help you in a martial art standpoint. Without the full knowledge of the big picture, your progress won't be as complete if one just focus's on fighting prowess.
We soon got this elderly woman doing more and more martial art technique of wing chun and cane defenses. Something she never thought she could do! (she didn't need the cane anymore! lol! just carried it around because we taught her cane defense)
Anyways, to me, the "esoteric" part of qi and the practical application in martial arts progression of power are one and the same. Each a part of the other. Yin Yang, whatever.
If you learn where to strike to hurt, those same points can be used to help or heal. same same, just depends on your "intention".
This is what I've learned so far from Old chi/qi man (have no idea which "school" of energy he trained from or used. I don't think he had one, or he used all).
I do love this thread, it is really helping me relearn what was given to me as teaching, that I didn't reconize then because we were just "hanging out".
I just don't think you should have fear of qi intangled into your intention when you do this stuff. Perfect love and perfect trust is the best way, that way you don't hurt yourself or others.

 

[Si-Je]

Sounds like the chi master is too smart to HAVE to fight. lol! He's got you on his side, he doesn't need to fight.
If he can palm strike a dumpster and move it like five feet, maybe he chooses to "lose" to his little brother becasue he doesn't want to use that kind of force upon him. (couldn't that kill someone?)

It is better to be hurt than to maim.
It is better maim than to kill.
It is better to kill than to be killed.

Just another peek into my head. I'm sure ya'll are getting sick of it. lol!
If I could generate that much power in a strike, I wouldn't hit my little brother either. Possibly no matter what he does. If I was smart enough to accomplish what needs to be done without doing anything. Then I would be a master!

Action without doing.

 

[qwksilver61]

Most here in the States do not teach the true combative form of Tai Chi,if you do not at least develop some relaxed hardness then you are not practicing True Tai Chi.Most are blindly lead by the form and cannot fight their way out of a paper bag.True,some activity is better than none.....my preference is the sun style.....

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well We train Yang Style. My Sifu who taught me the Wing Chun also teaches me Tai Chi. Now the Chinese guy who taught him the Tai Chi as been practicing for over 40 years. An my Sifu has been practicing Tai Chi for over 15 years. His Sifu is great a Tai Chi Expert. An they all go over combat techniques. There is another Younger student in his twenties who studies Chen. He practices many drills and can see clearly the combat techniques with Tai Chi. They do some light sparring using Tai Chi and Baguazhang we also do Chi Sau after the end of class!


But I know my Sifu can fight with it. I just really started doing the Yang form Seriously. I knew about all theory before hand because I studied because my Sifu told too years ago. But I having be doing Tai Chi on a steady basis for about half a year now...Maybe a little longer.

I can see some great application is Tai Chi. Even in the forms their are millions of applications. But it takes a partner to drill it with and spar with to get profiecent with your Tai Chi. But your right many Tai Chi Schools won't teach the fighting aspect or don't know. But then again some do. I was at Tai Chi demostration on Earth Day at forest park. A older Guy came up an told one the people who was at the stand. Yea that Tai Chi looks pretty But you can't fight with it. Now The guy at the booth was just talking to me how he and his wife spar all the time. She uses the Tai Chi and he uses the Kenpo. He is black blet and instructor in Kenpo. Anyway she holds her ground with the Tai Chi against a Black belt in Kenpo. So I think she can fight with it. He Says its no Joke himself. But the problem is most people who do Tai Chi do not seek confortation. What I mean is they frown on challenge sparring. So many people don't know they can fight with their Tai Chi.

Needle At sea Bottom is great technique for grabbing the neck to knee or just pulling the head to ground. Lets not talk about the Palm Strike with Single whip. First you pull your foe off balance then palm strike him at the same time as he weight and body plunges forward. The Palm thrust into heart of the chest. Ouch. What about Grasp sparrows tail personally I like to use this as a throw or to grab someones neck. It could be use as deadly move too. But what about wave hands like clouds, Reminds me of Tan Sau or Wu Sau blocks. An lets not forget Tiger returns to the Mountain. Wow great palm strikes to the kidneys. But the applications on the techinques I just named are infinite. But In tai chi I am just a beginner so what do I do know. May be your right no one in Amerikkka can fight with Tai Chi.


But what about Chi Kung thats found in the Wing Chun System?

What is purpose of Chi Kung In Wing Chun?

Most here in the States do not teach the true combative form of Tai Chi,if you do not at least develop some relaxed hardness then you are not practicing True Tai Chi.Most are blindly lead by the form and cannot fight their way out of a paper bag.True,some activity is better than none.....my preference is the sun style.....

 

[qwksilver61]

True and like you said,only real contact Tai Chi like with any other art...
Chi cultivation does exist within the first form......pay heed to the rules. scoffers and naysayers...hmmm..!!!