Sifu Emin Boztepe

[bcbernam777]

sounds liek a good option, but I am refering to WT instrcutors saying "a wrestler will shoot like this.." and they lean in like they are trying to tickle them or something. now these students have it in their muscle memory and have no knowledge of how a wrestler will actually shoot, plus, on the chance they get into it with a wrestler, instead of playing it safe they may have a false confidence because they have ......you know, basically what I am saying is don't train to defend against stuff that you haven't trained. chances are its wrong.

Then I would suggest WT (and I assume you are talking about Leung Tings crew) but any Wing Chunner needs to step outside their comfort zone and train against wrestlers, but I made my comment not to be a smart **** but with good reason. We try to make MA so bloody complicated that we loose the sense of who we are in the midst of real live combat. The reality is the shortest distance between two points is from A to B, the most simple and direct answer at the time is often the most approprate. I mean Bruce was right when he talked about the fancy mess. Please dont think that Wing Chun holds no answers against grapplers, because it does, even at an elementary level with Sifu he forged our understanding of the different energies at play and how to utilise them so as to retain our centre of gravity, now this has not failed me yet, but let me tell you if someone comes for the shoot, then I will shoot of the other direction, or I will apply principals bothe from Chum Kui and Bui Gee to overcome my oponants energy, will that work every time? I have no Idea, I know however that the principal is sound, the logic is structurally intact, and I have utilised these principals a number of times against grapplers. Now they may not have been the gracies, but lets be honest the majority of us are not going to have to face someone with the calibre of the Gracies, and let me say now I think the Gracies are awesone fighters, they are, there is no doubting it, but I have studie3 enough arts and been alive enough to know this one thing, an art is only as invincible as its practicioner allows it to be, we are all learning and developing in our chosen art. But to say that grappling has it on Wing Chun, sorry, your wrong, just as much as Wing Chun does not own grapplers. If any man, woman or child thinks that their art will save them, they are a fool, it is the man that saves himself, not the art.

 

[Shogun]

ok. thanks for clarifying your thoughts. And no. I wouldn't ever believe that training a certain discipline is superior. I just wanted to express how foolish it is to train against something you've never trained yourself. when teaching GJJ, I would NEVER say, "a Wing chun guy is just gonna run in throwing punches at your face" or anything like that because its not necessarily true, and I don't know the mechanics. I'm not refering to tyypical people. I am talking about the contless times I have heard in videos and in person WC and WT teachers telling their students to fight "like this" against Muay Thai, aikido, BJJ, and wrestling. it arrogance in my opinion

 

[bcbernam777]

ok. thanks for clarifying your thoughts. And no. I wouldn't ever believe that training a certain discipline is superior. I just wanted to express how foolish it is to train against something you've never trained yourself. when teaching GJJ, I would NEVER say, "a Wing chun guy is just gonna run in throwing punches at your face" or anything like that because its not necessarily true, and I don't know the mechanics. I'm not refering to tyypical people. I am talking about the contless times I have heard in videos and in person WC and WT teachers telling their students to fight "like this" against Muay Thai, aikido, BJJ, and wrestling. it arrogance in my opinion

and I agree with you Shogun, if a WT guy has never actually tested their art against a grappler then you are right it is arrogant to assume this and that will work, all they have are theories. Diffenrent story if a WT guy has developed his theory from actual real time combat against a grappler.


You know thats what I love about this forum, we can agree to disagree but still find some common ground

 

[Shogun]

true. I respect WT/WC, and seeing as we teach out of a WT school, I get exposure to it. I just don't have the time to train it. but at this seminar, a high level WT instructor was showing "what a Jiu-jitsu guy would do" and it was totally incorrect. made me think.

regards

 

[Rook]

true. I respect WT/WC, and seeing as we teach out of a WT school, I get exposure to it. I just don't have the time to train it. but at this seminar, a high level WT instructor was showing "what a Jiu-jitsu guy would do" and it was totally incorrect. made me think.

regards

This stuff is actually quite common. Arts say that you can train against tactics of another art without really knowing how they work. We see TMA guys practicing against "karate" with no hip rotation with their punches, against "boxing" with punches I have seen no boxer use and against "grappling" with tackles that no competent grappler utilizes.

 

[bcbernam777]

Whoever it was that had the courage of their convictions to neg rep me should also have the courage to leave their username and explain what I said that is "bs"

 

[Si-Je]

What you have to stop focusing so much on is what the other guy is going to do. If you stick to your technique and follow WC/WT concepts and principles it won't matter much how your opponent attacks, for you intercept their intention and negate their intended technique before they get to finish their movement.
Thus, it doesn't matter if they kick, punch, shoot in to grapple whatever, you focus on flowing with their force and deflecting it from you using it against them. Hence, a TKD attacker doesn't finish the kick, a boxer doesn't finish his/her boxing combo, a grappler isn't allowed to complete a take down or a arm bar. Because you have already executed WC technique to counter their attack from the moment they move.
If your constantly worried about what the other guy is going to do to you you give them the chance to do it by anticipating the outcome, and if you don't stay open minded ready to adapt you play their game and lose.
I've sparred TKD, MMA, and BJJ trained martial artists, and the trick is to stay true to what you train everyday and what you know, have confidence in it whatever art you study, and have faith in your ability to execute otherwise you will lose.
WC's biggest advantage is "getting there first", the quickest way between two points, thus hit them first and follow up quickly and confidently. No time to worry about what the opponent wants to do to you. Only enough time to react.
I've stopped fast and skilled kickers before they can stretch their leg out enough to kick me with WC, I've stopped boxers by intercepting their first jab and crowding their space so they can't follow up with a flurry of combo punching, I've initaiated attack against those that only faint a strike trying to find a "hole" in my guard, and I've stopped grapplers and BJJ/MMA fighters from finishing a takedown simply by strictly following WC concept and reaction.

Plus, if you intend to grapple a striker and they are not allowed to strike you with full force that negates their technique. As you said before that you got the striker in a choke even though he hit you. That's the equivilant of me saying to a grappler, "okay, you can grapple me, just don't take me to the ground." That puts me as a striker at the advantage. And the grappler at a disadvantage.

We train with full gear so we can strike much closer to full force, so a grappler is unbalanced by the forward force of WC, their body and head is turned thus their takedown doesn't work, it keeps them off balance. Just like in a actual fight, just without the pain. But, it gets the point across.

So, in not so short, (lol!) it doesn't matter so much if you don't attack eachother EXACTLY the way another style attacks in class. This won't prepare you that much more for an encounter with other styles. It helps, but again, you focus too much on learning another styles attacks and are not focusing enough on what you need to be doing in the conflict. Thus many stylists when they come into contact with another fighter whether in tournament or street "mimic" their opponents style sometimes subconsiciously and thus end up fighting in their opponents style and not their own. If you train a style, fight in that style, otherwise, what's the point of training it? I don't train WC to learn how to fight like a ju-jitsu stylist. I train WC to fight with WC concepts. Your fighting style doesn't change for your attacker. Whether your TKD, BJJ, WC, ect... You fight the way you train. Not the way the attacker trains.

just for example: I don't care that a Mui Tai stylist can kick trees with his shins, I'm focused on taking his space away so he cannot execute technique. I may be aware that he could break my leg with those shins, and fight accordingly, but the WC concepts of combat still doesn't change.

 

[Si-Je]

And on the note of anti-grappling partners not coming into attack a WT practicing anti-grappling hard or aggressively enough to satisfy other stylists; this is because they know whats coming. They want to be able to keep training tomorrow. The harder and faster they come into an anti-grappling WT trained person the harder and faster they will get hit.
Pain is a good reason for pause. lol!
I trained Japanese Ju-jitsu, and the more stiff and strong your opponent is, the more force they try to resist you, the easier it is to get them in an armbar. Very similar with WT/WC, the harder, faster, and more forceful you come into them the more you will be hurt. I mean, it seems that so many people complain that WT or other schools don't train realistic enough in class, it makes me wonder how realistic do they REALLY want their classes to be? Do we really want to lose teeth, break bones and give eachother concussions while training? You have to keep things in perspective. Your training to learn not to get beat up. That's why these guys are not coming in so agressively, because they know better. Guiterrez hits hard! And hits you many many times!

More WT schools should put on full gear, is what I think, to get that quality of training to get used to more forceful attack.

Guiterrez and Emin still train their people without gear, and they get hit very forcefully alot. My instructor/husband trained with Emin and was smacked around all the time. Not everyone wants to train that hard core (myself included! lol!) MMA trains with full gear and the students are able to go all out, and gain much valuable experience and confidence in their ability to execute technique. Which IS very valuable training. That's why we train with the gear in free sparring, and while practicing basic WC drills like chi sau, lat sau etc.. Our students have a saying, "no fear with the head gear!" when they are acting as the attacker towards a fellow student or the cheif instructor. So everyone gets more practical training. The student can experience a full boar attack and learn to respond accordingly, and the one attacking is still conscious and able to have fun and learn too. But even then, the harder you attack the harder your neck snapps back!

 

[monji112000]

" WC's biggest advantage is "getting there first", the quickest way between two points"

At my end of the Lineage we call this Jamming. You can jam many ways.. Pak , qwan , qwan/bong gerk ect..
In my experience jamming isn't the best approach (for me) all the time. You have to be on point with your reactions (something I am not), your speed needs to be faster than him or you need to be closer to him. You have to cover quickly after you jam.
I don't fight people that are slower than me mostly and I often find that getting away seems more natural for me.

"As you said before that you got the striker in a choke even though he hit you. That's the equivalent of me saying to a grappler, "okay, you can grapple me, just don't take me to the ground.""

well I don't think that is a realistic comparison. How well someone can take a hit, and how well you can give a punch are relative. Allot of these punches I see people jamming in with in the Leung tin and Emin schools /clips.. I could take a few pretty well, because I have. I believe that these punches arn't very effective. So if you can take the punch with ease then you can grapple and choke someone without much effort.

"just for example: I don't care that a Mui Tai stylist can kick trees with his shins, I'm focused on taking his space away so he cannot execute technique. I may be aware that he could break my leg with those shins, and fight accordingly, but the WC concepts of combat still doesn't change."

I realize that this is your main tactic.. thats fine because you train it so much so it may work well for you. But, this isn't the normal case. Trying to intercept a good boxer isn't a "smart" tactic. Boxers pride themselves on bobing, weaving, sucking you in, evading , quick jams ect..
A decent boxer is not as easy to jam. Joe Smo that I may meet on the street may not be a "decent" boxer.. but I believe in training against styles. I believe in trying to apply your "style" against many other style is the best way to gain experience and to truly "know" your style.
JMO

"I mean, it seems that so many people complain that WT or other schools don't train realistic enough in class, it makes me wonder how realistic do they REALLY want their classes to be?"

As much as possible To some degree if you are going to train for a fight, you need to replicate to some degree the fight. I am not saying I am always healthy enough to train that way every day.. but in a general path thats my destination. This is why people were trained in "gung lik" and how to apply WC.( I don't know the translation.) Its like saying you don't want to get wet when you go swiming.

 

[Si-Je]

At my end of the Lineage we call this Jamming. You can jam many ways.. Pak , qwan , qwan/bong gerk ect..
In my experience jamming isn't the best approach (for me) all the time. You have to be on point with your reactions (something I am not), your speed needs to be faster than him or you need to be closer to him. You have to cover quickly after you jam.

No, I'm not talking about trapping hands or "jamming". I'm simply talking about hitting them before they hit you. I've canceled out other stylists punching technique both boxing and TKD by simply chain punching. This can be used as a deflection and simoltaneous attack. People get hung up on trying to trap an opponents hands. This is not something that you "try for" it is something that "happens" when you use sensitivity and flow with the opponents force.

How well someone can take a hit, and how well you can give a punch are relative. Allot of these punches I see people jamming in with in the Leung tin and Emin schools /clips.. I could take a few pretty well, because I have. I believe that these punches arn't very effective. So if you can take the punch with ease then you can grapple and choke someone without much effort..

This is a common misconception for grapplers. It's like they train to take a punch and think it's okay to get hit a couple of times. (great mentality if your a man and strong) This depends on the practicioner. When I've drilled chain punching I've moved the 240 lb. man holding the kicking pad back so I KNOW someone will not just be "taking" several of those punches. Your gonna feel it and it's going to unbalance an opponent if not just outright hurt. Plus, depends on where you strike. Will I punch a large man in the jaw or skull? No, the nose, temple, throat, and base of the neck from behind are great options. Thus, your assumption that you can "take" as many punches needed to get your choke, i find to be a very dangerous one.

Trying to intercept a good boxer isn't a "smart" tactic. Boxers pride themselves on bobing, weaving, sucking you in, evading , quick jams ect..
A decent boxer is not as easy to jam. Joe Smo that I may meet on the street may not be a "decent" boxer.. ..

Again, we don't "try" to jam up a boxer or any other opponent. This would negate flow, and make our movements coreographed and premeditated. And contrary to WC concepts.
here is where chi sau starts, when you make that inital arm contact by deflecting the first punch from your opponent. You step forward with forward force into the attacker as they are punching at you with tan sau, pac sau, etc... and keep arm contact so you can follow the opponents movements. This is intercepting fist. I'm not trying to catch your fist or arm like in some movie, I just stay close to it, keep contact with the arm/elbow and crowd the opponents space with steppng and stance, while kicking out a knee all simoltaneously, so that they cannot regroup and follow up with more attacks. This WILL negate a boxers ability to bob and weave so much becuase you are actually breathing their air. You now stand where they were standing when they threw the first punch and have kicked the knee out as you stepped in their fighting stance while deflecting whether with tan sau or pac, and punching rapidly at the same time. THIS IS THE BASIC PRINCIPLES TAUGHT IN WING CHUN. Simoltaneous attack and defense. A boxer does not know how to attack and defend at the same time, thus, their tactic is slower.

As much as possible To some degree if you are going to train for a fight, you need to replicate to some degree the fight. I am not saying I am always healthy enough to train that way every day.. but in a general path thats my destination. This is why people were trained in "gung lik" and how to apply WC.( I don't know the translation.) Its like saying you don't want to get wet when you go swiming.

Yes, I agree. That's why we train with full gear so we can simulate spontaneous sparring with the students and so they can learn to follow through with technique and get used to more agressive attacking in class. I've stated this often, somehow it get missed or deemed unimportant.

 

[Si-Je]

Wing Chun no no #1
when a "boxer" jabs you imediately try to latch the punching arm and pull opponent too you or try to pac and trap the arm to their body. POW! you get hit with the other hand. You fall into their trap, their game.

Wing Chun do #1
said "boxer" jabs and immediately follows up with other hand. You tan or pac jabbing punch arm, step into the side of the initial attacking jab placing yourself away from the follow up punch. (stepping to the side of their body outside of their centerline. While keeping them in frount of YOUR centerline). Using your stance to crowd the legs allowing you to use leg sensitivity and arm sensitivity on the first punch to keep track of opponents movements and strike the side of the head or spade hand the kidneys, while kicking the nearest leg. All in one flowing movement.

Wing Chun no no #2
Trying to force a trap situation on any style of opponent whether a grappler or striker. This causes you to fail to flow with the opportunities given you by the attackers actions, thus you cannot adapt to the situation.

This is only the very basic concepts of Wing Chun.

 

[MMAman]

Wing Chun no no #1
when a "boxer" jabs you imediately try to latch the punching arm and pull opponent too you or try to pac and trap the arm to their body. POW! you get hit with the other hand. You fall into their trap, their game.

Wing Chun do #1
said "boxer" jabs and immediately follows up with other hand. You tan or pac jabbing punch arm, step into the side of the initial attacking jab placing yourself away from the follow up punch. (stepping to the side of their body outside of their centerline. While keeping them in frount of YOUR centerline). Using your stance to crowd the legs allowing you to use leg sensitivity and arm sensitivity on the first punch to keep track of opponents movements and strike the side of the head or spade hand the kidneys, while kicking the nearest leg. All in one flowing movement.

Wing Chun no no #2
Trying to force a trap situation on any style of opponent whether a grappler or striker. This causes you to fail to flow with the opportunities given you by the attackers actions, thus you cannot adapt to the situation.

This is only the very basic concepts of Wing Chun.

Now this is nonsence. Cross-training is far better than any TMA style. if you Wing Chun guys just admire Bruce Lee, read his books about being free from style and take what is useful.

Check this link:
http://cyclonewingchun.wblite.co.uk/News/Wing-Chun-Articles.mspx

This link is from a Wing chun trainer who knew how stuff like anti-grappling cannot work and are just theories, and he trained in real grappling like BJJ and catch wrestling. "CROSS TRAINING".

 

[Jade Tigress]

Mod Note

Attention All Users

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Sr. Moderator

 

[Si-Je]

Que paso?
My last post had nothing to do with Bruce Lee, dear.
I was just clarifying WC theory and application. I've studied WC for the past three years, and I haven't found anything to "strip" away yet.
As for cross-training, this is something I find to be largely irrevelant to becoming a well trained fighter.
I've studied other arts for years, and now only use Wing Chun. That's all that's needed, all the rest I learned from other arts was what I "stripped" away from my fighting style.
But, each to their own.

 

[bcbernam777]

Now this is nonsence. Cross-training is far better than any TMA style.

How so? I have cross trained and the only thing it led to was nueral confusion.

if you Wing Chun guys just admire Bruce Lee, read his books about being free from style and take what is useful.

Funny that Bruce Lee stated just weeks before his death that he wanted to further study Wing Chun (he had not completed the system you see, so he only had a partial picture of Wing Chun)

Check this link:
http://cyclonewingchun.wblite.co.uk/News/Wing-Chun-Articles.mspx

This link is from a Wing chun trainer who knew how stuff like anti-grappling cannot work and are just theories, and he trained in real grappling like BJJ and catch wrestling. "CROSS TRAINING".

mmmmm one trainer, it couldnt be that they are pushing BJJ mixed with WC as a marketing tool (no of course they wouldn't do that). One trainer who says it cant and plenty of others who say it can? Quoting one trainer who has already started from a position of cross training therefore has a barrow to push proves nothing.

This rubbish argument go's on and on with no resolution and there wont be, I have done many arts, some grappling, some kicking, some striking, there is no other art that I have personally found that is smarter or more efficient than Wing Chun, that is my personal view borne from experiance, I have tasted the other arts, however people like you mmaman, seem content in pulling an art apart that you have no real experiance in, and then you bring Bruce into it, for an extra side serve of sarcasm, I truely doubt you even understand the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do", if you did you will find one of the causes of a lack of speed listed in the book is "no trained in a system".

B4ruce was not declaring that their is no need for a system, he was warning martial artists to transcend the system and become free thinkers not pile one system upon another, when you cross train that is all you are doing, cramming one system upon another system, so that neurologically you dont have the same reaction timing as another who has singulary trained in a system.

As for grappling and anti grappling, there is more than one way to skin a cat, remember a fight does not happen until molacule jtouches molacule, and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, yet in the martial art, there are many variables as to what that reaction will be, there are many weapons that can be used against a grappler, and many ways of strategy that can overcome a grappler, anti grappling is simply the most obvious way, it is however not the only way.

 

[MJS]

Speaking as someone who really knows nothing about WC, but does cross train, I'd like to comment on that aspect. I've had this discussion (crosstraining) with a number of Kenpoists. For myself, I crosstrain in the arts I do, because I like what they have to offer, and I'd like to further my understanding in certain areas. I don't feel that someone should have to leave their base art and jump into something else, but at the least, I personally see nothing wrong with cross referencing other arts. We have a number of defenses against takedowns in Kenpo. But, the way I'm 'attacked' in training, may not be the way someone trained in BJJ would attack. That being said, by working with someone who does BJJ, it helps me to make my defense better.

The same can be said with weapon defense. Again, we have a number of club and knife disarms, but I take my knowledge of Arnis, and apply it to my Kenpo techs. What better way for me, to improve on weapon defense, than to train in an art in which weapons are a major part of it.

Anyway, this is simply my .02.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

As long as no agreed upon standards are set by parties in discussion, no agreement will ever be reached, since each method or system is evaluated by it's own standards, principles, concepts and guidelines.

So I won't enter into that discussion.

I will say the following.

Many instructors using many systems, traditional and not, have produced exellent fighters that do what they do proficiently as needed. each fighter is happy with what they do. And that is quite ok!

On cross training.

If it is not done properly, it will only confuse. Many times it cancels one for another. This means that there is no real integration and tends to waste valuable training time.

How so?

Because you may train to achieve a skill that you already have, except that you gained it from another method!

As for Wing Chun, it's structure and approach is profound, yet simplistic. This makes it very elegant to many practitioners.

The thing is not to make it a bigger system.

The aim is to strip away until you have to train less stuff... so you can maximize on training those things which yield most results.

Or not.

I just enjoy the structure I get and the ability to be not manipulated.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[MMAman]

Que paso?
My last post had nothing to do with Bruce Lee, dear.
I was just clarifying WC theory and application. I've studied WC for the past three years, and I haven't found anything to "strip" away yet.
As for cross-training, this is something I find to be largely irrevelant to becoming a well trained fighter.
I've studied other arts for years, and now only use Wing Chun. That's all that's needed, all the rest I learned from other arts was what I "stripped" away from my fighting style.
But, each to their own.

Still you speak from a theoritical aspect. MMA tends to prove it's stuff by producing fighters who proved their stuff by fighting. I still remember how Wing Chun fighters couldn't do anything in the early UFC's. they even didn't move!. This stuff normally happens when people train but not try their stuff.

Anti-grappling demonstrated in WT is something that even a basic BJJ trainers could know how to deal with.

As for Emin vs the Gracies. Royce wanted him to fight in the UFC because there were no rules. I don't know why?, most styles took the fact of the grappling domination and incorporated it in their styles after watching BJJ in the ring, except Wing chun!. I don't know why?.

Unless Wing Chunners don't realize about grappling and stay on this Anti stuff. I dont think they would know how real fights end?.

The guy provided the link knew this fact and he said it.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but facts are clear as I guess.

 

[bcbernam777]

Still you speak from a theoritical aspect. MMA tends to prove it's stuff by producing fighters who proved their stuff by fighting.

Ah so no Wing Chun fighter in the world has ever had a fight?

I still remember how Wing Chun fighters couldn't do anything in the early UFC's. they even didn't move!. This stuff normally happens when people train but not try their stuff.

Agreed, but to blame the art is ridculous, i know plenty of Wing Chun fighters who move like the wind, they observe good principles such as bridging, timing, etc. This only gets back to the original quote you brought up about Bruce, those who dont move are trapped within their own learned helplessness, martial robots, they obviously had no life in their art, I know when training my Sifu constantly challenges us to think, not just blindly do. Theory + Real World Practice + Lateral Thinking is a good combination in any art, these people obvislyy had the first but not the other 2 elements.

Anti-grappling demonstrated in WT is something that even a basic BJJ trainers could know how to deal with..

Which goes back to a point I made on another thread, why try to fight someone on their terms, there is more than one way to control heaven and earth (please refer to Sun Tzu)

fight in the UFC because there were no rules.

I am sorry I must be watching a different UFC

I don't know why?, most styles took the fact of the grappling domination and incorporated it in their styles after watching BJJ in the ring, except Wing chun!. I don't know why?.

Probably because Wing Chun has its own awnsers to this conudrum

Unless Wing Chunners don't realize about grappling and stay on this Anti stuff. I dont think they would know how real fights end?.

Oh thats right, no one ever got into a real fight until MMA came along, you serve a strong case for a real fact that MMA practicioners have been hit entirely too many times in the head and live in punch drunk land.

The guy provided the link knew this fact and he said it.

Correction he knew a experential fact that was real for him in his training, I know of other people who know other facts, infact I know of people who have left the wonderful world of MMA and have gone into TMA's because of its own series of shortcomings and inconsistancies, do I then go on to publish the fact that MMA is useless because of their own experiance, no to do that borders on idiocy. For a start you dont know this persons level of training in Wing Chun, you dont know what teacher he was under, you dont know any of these things.

You are simply using a statement from one Wing Chun proponant to support your argumant and trounce it of as being the "golden fact".

Now I am not saying that their are not other Wing Chunners incroporating BJJ into their teaching, but I know of kempo teachers who are incorporating BJJ as well, does it mean that they have seen the light? Well I asked one who is a friend, who stated to me quite clearly, that the only reason they are offering BJJ Classes mixed with their own martial art is because it makes more economic sense, as offering both bjj and MT broadens his client base by being all things to all people.

Many of us in our local WC circles know for a fact that the whole reason many WC teachers incorporate BJJ into their curriculum was because it was a business decision, to broaden their own Student base. Its all about money thats it.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but facts are clear as I guess.

I think the word your looking for is fact, not facts, facts indicate that there was more than one.

 

[jas825_231]

Still you speak from a theoritical aspect. MMA tends to prove it's stuff by producing fighters who proved their stuff by fighting. I still remember how Wing Chun fighters couldn't do anything in the early UFC's. they even didn't move!. This stuff normally happens when people train but not try their stuff.

Anti-grappling demonstrated in WT is something that even a basic BJJ trainers could know how to deal with.

As for Emin vs the Gracies. Royce wanted him to fight in the UFC because there were no rules. I don't know why?, most styles took the fact of the grappling domination and incorporated it in their styles after watching BJJ in the ring, except Wing chun!. I don't know why?.

Unless Wing Chunners don't realize about grappling and stay on this Anti stuff. I dont think they would know how real fights end?.

The guy provided the link knew this fact and he said it.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but facts are clear as I guess.

Well for the early fights in UFC the people who represented WC looked like beginners at best who clearly had NO fighting experience. If I remember right, there was one 'WC' guy who lifted his leg and cowered back in fear when his opponent came at him. He looked scared to be in the ring, and with seemingly no fighting experience and most likely a beginner in WC. That person is pretty ignorant to get in there and fight. But i also think it's ignorant of you to judge WC off of those one or two people. I have a friend who does boxing and bjj, but can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. I don't say MMA is bad because of that.

As far as the anti-grappling thing. It does work. It just has to be practiced with some one who knows how to grapple, so you can get down the timing, strength, leverage, etc. Not someone who thinks they know how to grapple. I've fended off plenty of wrestlers with some anti grappling techniques, granted not anyone in bjj.