Sifu Emin Boztepe

[ed-swckf]

Not much anymore. Rotator cuff problems limit me nowadays. What was interesting to me in the video was shoulder leading, head across the opponent's body grappling attempt by the bigger guy(similar to the position presented in Guiterrez's Wing Tsun book if I recall correctly)--that was mistake number one. Even so, he managed to lock his hands around the wing chunner's back, but he just picked him up and held him there--mistake number 2. A grappler with even a little skill would have had him on the ground instantly from that position.

I don't really trust this without personal experience, all it means to me right now is your opinion. Its definitely not anything conclusive to me, and all i was asking was if you grappled. I haven't even looked at the video and i am not interested in discussing the whole "if you do this i'll do that" scenario between different arts, its fruitless and seemingly builds walls between arts. Both arts are extermely effective, both can counter each other, both are dependant on the skill level and exposure of the individuals and the how things go on the day. I'm sorry if that comes off at all harsh but i am just wary of entering into this type of conversation as it degenerates every single time.

Regards,
ed

 

[ed-swckf]

The bottom line is that the gracies will never fight Emin in a no rules fight, ever. They want him to join UFC, but why, I thought they were no rules fighters, and last I checked UFC has rules. Im sure Emin would have no problem meeting them on neutral ground in a street fight, but they will never do it.

Why does anyone even care about emin and the gracies? Making a challenge fight proves what? If the gracies loose what does that prove, absoloutely nothing, same if emin looses. I'm hoping both parties understand this and hope that is the true reason they haven't made this notion a reality. Fighting is negative and should only be resorted to when there is no other choice, if you choice to employ violence when there are numerous other choices then you have already failed. People continually feed this ridiculous notion which brings noteriety to both camps which i'm sure they probably both enjoy but jesus guys, don't you think its all a little soap opera? What i would like to see is people conducting themselves as martial artists not people making silly challenges for promotion that seems not very far removed from WWF or WWE or whatever. I understand there is going to be promotion along side the sport fighting, thats an entertainment industry thing and thats fine i enjoy seeing a scrap on tv, thats peoples livliehoods etc. But a no rules fight, for what? seems that both gain very little.

 

[Si-Je]

I agree with you Ed.
That's pretty similar to what I stated in my earlier post. The school we're opeing up will have a couple different martial arts being taught there, not just Wing Chun. We have freinds in other arts and we would like to see the kung fu community more unified than so segregated.

But as for MMA and other martial arts stylists "getting along". I'm not sure this will happen. MMA and BJJ are very new, competion oriented, and completely agressive in and out of the ring. Their all about challenges and "proof" of their effectiveness. This is how they operate. and when given "proof" or whatever, they still won't believe what they see and truth. Many make excuses for Royce Gracie losing his last fight, he's old, etc. whatever. Alot of speculation goes on what one fighter can do and how they will beat another. That seems to be the way of those styles. They're very new, and I guess have alot to prove.
We have a couple of MMA/BJJ friends in the arts, but these guys are far less arrogant and combative about thier art, and thus, easier to get along with. Usually when people hear we do Wing Chun, they either make fun, don't know what it is, challange, or state it as ineffective. What can you do? shrug it off usually. These are many of the reasons Emin wanted to go ahead and accept the challenges to open people's minds, and to show them for what they are. He's a good guy, just very idealistic, honest, and blunt. Like a knight, he wants to fight for what he thinks is right.

You'd like the video I posted though. It's just a good example of WT in a real conflict, which I haven't seen much of other than demos, instructional videos and such.
I didn't mean to use it to spark debate. I ment to use it to show MMA stylists what WT actually looks like in a fight. It seems many really don't know. And that they think they can just walk up to a WT stylist and grapple them to the ground so easily. But still, they do not accept. That's why we have them put on the head gear and face shield when they come into our class to sparr. So we can show them that they CAN'T TAKE the strikes to the head and still throw us to the ground. But, I guess they really just have to feel it to believe it.

 

[Journeyman]

Didn't consider it harsh at all, ed. I do encourage you to watch the video though.

 

[ed-swckf]

I agree with you Ed.
That's pretty similar to what I stated in my earlier post. The school we're opeing up will have a couple different martial arts being taught there, not just Wing Chun. We have freinds in other arts and we would like to see the kung fu community more unified than so segregated.

As time goes on the art becomes so insignificant, regardless of what it is. I still train in wing chun and am pretty pure in that respect, i have friends in many other arts also and through this i do incorperate a lot of ideas of the effectiveness of other arts. I wish you good luck in your new school.

But as for MMA and other martial arts stylists "getting along". I'm not sure this will happen.

I'm not expecting them to get on per se, but look at what you wrote: "Martial arts stylists" - what i mean is what is the sum of a martial artist?

MMA and BJJ are very new, competion oriented, and completely agressive in and out of the ring. Their all about challenges and "proof" of their effectiveness. This is how they operate. and when given "proof" or whatever, they still won't believe what they see and truth. Many make excuses for Royce Gracie losing his last fight, he's old, etc. whatever. Alot of speculation goes on what one fighter can do and how they will beat another. That seems to be the way of those styles. They're very new, and I guess have alot to prove.
We have a couple of MMA/BJJ friends in the arts, but these guys are far less arrogant and combative about thier art, and thus, easier to get along with. Usually when people hear we do Wing Chun, they either make fun, don't know what it is, challange, or state it as ineffective. What can you do? shrug it off usually. These are many of the reasons Emin wanted to go ahead and accept the challenges to open people's minds, and to show them for what they are. He's a good guy, just very idealistic, honest, and blunt. Like a knight, he wants to fight for what he thinks is right.

Ok you concentrated on the negatives on the side of MMA and BJJ what about the negatives on the side of wing chun people? This isn't one sided or the fault of BJJ/MMA people this whole issue is entertained and perpetuated by both sides.

You'd like the video I posted though. It's just a good example of WT in a real conflict, which I haven't seen much of other than demos, instructional videos and such.

I watched, i've seen it before and i'm not entirely convinced it isn't staged.

try this

or this

I didn't mean to use it to spark debate. I ment to use it to show MMA stylists what WT actually looks like in a fight. It seems many really don't know. And that they think they can just walk up to a WT stylist and grapple them to the ground so easily. But still, they do not accept. That's why we have them put on the head gear and face shield when they come into our class to sparr. So we can show them that they CAN'T TAKE the strikes to the head and still throw us to the ground. But, I guess they really just have to feel it to believe it.

the way i see it is takedowns can be very fast and grapplers are well prepared to take hits, so yes they will get hit they can even be stopped, or they can get through and take us to the ground. There is no definite outcome, and yes that includes when we go to the ground, a wing chun guy may mangae to get the upper hand by applying wing chun principles or the BJJ guy may knock him the **** out. Its a fight, and it comes down to the fighter not the art. Its not paper scissors stone where paper always beats stone.

I love wing chun it suits me down to the ground (no pun intended) but i respect all other arts as extremely effective and worthy arts and respect all other martial artists as people who i like to be associated with. More importantly idon't base a persons skill and ability based on their art, i base it solely on them.

 

[ed-swckf]

Didn't consider it harsh at all, ed. I do encourage you to watch the video though.

I did, you can read what i thought of it above, what it has to do with grappling i don't know as thats not how i view grappling to be preformed.

 

[Si-Je]

those are very good philosophies and attitudes to take, ed.
I am pretty aware of the arrogance on the sides of kung fu and wing chun stylists as well. That's what we're branching away from with our school.

Thanks for the good wishes on our new school. we're pretty excited, and nervous too.

And I do agree with your attitude on fighting. There's really no telling until it happens, many unknown variables. And fighting is hardly ever a "good" idea. It's really what we train to be able to handle if it arises, and handle quickly. But, to avoid such is mostly the best policy. Sometimes others don't let one back out of conflict. But making oneself available to challeges and matches is really kinda the opposite of what martial arts is really about.
I personally don't even like to compete in tournament. I do on occasion to promote the school and the style, but my "heart" isn't really into competition. I just don't care enough about it. All I care about is being able to walk down the street without fear, or aprehnesion. Being able to defend myself and my family. But others may enjoy competion and conflict, and that's great for them. Each to their own.

 

[SilatFan]

Delmar.J:

“I know people personally who were refused by the Gracie family because the fight had no rules. … I know they refuse challenges from reputable kung fu masters in no rules fighting.”
-Like who? Where/how did you hear of this?


“Also, the UFC has this "no rules" stigma that follows it around, when that is far from the truth. The UFC's rules benifit kickboxing/wrestling fighters. There are some real Kung Fu masters out there that would destroy all of the UFC competitors out there right now, but as I stated in another thread on Chinese secrecy, the PUBLIC, and the COURTS, are not ready for true Chinese martial arts.”
-Again, like who?


In reference to Rooks opinion on the Gracie challenge:
“You are a victim of what good media coverage can do. "we will fight under no rules, as long as you do it at our gym with 50 of our homeboys all aound you" Like the person above stated, they need to meet Emin on neutral ground.”
-Or Emin can have them come to his gym. Number of people present can always be decided. I’m sure Emin has capable students who could support him if it’s agreed to have an audience. Also, it’s better for your students to actually SEE your fights rather then to HEAR about your (ehuh, cough, 200+) fights.


“The bottom line is that the gracies will never fight Emin in a no rules fight, ever. They want him to join UFC, but why, I thought they were no rules fighters, and last I checked UFC has rules.”
-No they are professional athletes who also compete in MMA and teach a martial art. Got to love how Emin could accept a “open challenge” from a smaller, older man and show up by surprise doing it but not go with a similar scenario with a mere GJJ instructor. I mean its not even WT. Wait a second. The Gracie’s don’t own a piece of the UFC. Why do they want him to join it?

 

[SilatFan]

Si-Je:



“He wrote to the owners of UFC and stated this and that he wanted to challenge Gracie. They wanted him to go through the UFC rules and rank up to the champion, Gracie.”
-What would have happened if he challenged Mike Tyson for the IBF HW title when he held it? He’d be told to competed, win and work his way up to the “champion” as well. No?

“My husband teaches me, and he's a Level 5 technician. I can trust him to teach me right, and to do right by me. If I were to train under another man I would not have this respect and trust for there is too much politicing and self interest involved in what many teachers do.”
-Glad that you have trust in your husband. To bad you feel that way about other male teachers. But I wonder if it’s their prejudices or yours that’d keep you from learning the “right” way?


“My husband loves challenges, and fighting and competing. I've already made plans as to how these will take place if they come up. He's been challenged to fight at a masters tournament in the recent past, but I didn't want him to go. It was a set up. obviously. Where the GM of the style had a couple of hundred of his "followers" and students, and black belts there, whereas my husband would just have me.
The Gracies want to operate like this as well.”
-I love this excuse. Have you ever seen or even heard of someone getting jumped by one of the Gracie’s “gang”? Pathetic excuse. You can and could put a limit on the people present or if you’re an accomplished martial artist like Emin you could bring your own students. On a side note what do you think all those bystanders would do to your husband at the tournament?


“Notice when the guy grabs him and picks him up why grappling isn't always a good idea. The WT guy stays totally in form, and uses only Wing Chun the whole time. no need for another art.”
-Lol! I don’t believe anyone here stated grappling was “always good.” I think your comment for the video should be that “grappling BADLY isn’t always a good idea” (actually it never is). If you want to use video to demonstrate WT’s or WC’s effectiveness maybe look to the Emin/W.Cheung video. At least there you have two know entities in a fight and not a WT guy and a “grappler” whose skill sets are unknown. Or would you say Emin is also a better grappler than those MMA or BJJ types who “shrug off the thought of being hit repeatedly in the head face, and neck.” At least your not making assumptions about those MMA/BJJ types.


“It's just a shame that people require so much psudo-truth and proof, like video and such. If people could really just try something new and different and make up their own minds themselves all this mess wouldn't be necessary.”
-Maybe they have tried and they just don’t agree with you?



“But as for MMA and other martial arts stylists "getting along". I'm not sure this will happen. MMA and BJJ are very new, competion oriented, and completely agressive in and out of the ring.”
-Your opinion. But at least your understanding of THEIR insecurities.


“Their all about challenges and "proof" of their effectiveness. This is how they operate. and when given "proof" or whatever, they still won't believe what they see and truth.”
-Proof like that “grppler” vs a WT practitioner video? Lol! I have a video of a mediocre Turkish wrestler taking down and beating up an old Chinese W C guy. Now that’s proof.


“Many make excuses for Royce Gracie losing his last fight, he's old, etc. whatever.”
-Huh? What does a MMA fighter losing to another MMA fighter have to do with this? Has Matt Hughes been training with Emin? Is that how Emin decided to get the Gracies? LOL!!!

 

[DeLamar.J]

Why does anyone even care about emin and the gracies? Making a challenge fight proves what? If the gracies loose what does that prove, absoloutely nothing, same if emin looses. I'm hoping both parties understand this and hope that is the true reason they haven't made this notion a reality. Fighting is negative and should only be resorted to when there is no other choice, if you choice to employ violence when there are numerous other choices then you have already failed. People continually feed this ridiculous notion which brings noteriety to both camps which i'm sure they probably both enjoy but jesus guys, don't you think its all a little soap opera? What i would like to see is people conducting themselves as martial artists not people making silly challenges for promotion that seems not very far removed from WWF or WWE or whatever. I understand there is going to be promotion along side the sport fighting, thats an entertainment industry thing and thats fine i enjoy seeing a scrap on tv, thats peoples livliehoods etc. But a no rules fight, for what? seems that both gain very little.

I care because the gracies claim they fight under no rules, and exept any challenge. When I know personally people who have been refused by the Gracies. I know Emin will beat any of them under no rules. The refuse because they know that they will loose, but still sit back and claim we exept any one, and we will fight with no rules.
They are liars, and liars need to be exposed by martial arts masters who really do fight with no rules. For me, its just that they claim something that isnt true, I have more respect for fighters who dont compete because they dont believe in it rather than the ones who make false claims.
That is my only issue.

 

[ed-swckf]

I care because the gracies claim they fight under no rules, and exept any challenge. When I know personally people who have been refused by the Gracies.

Where to they claim this incidently?

I know Emin will beat any of them under no rules.

No, you don't know that, no one will know the result until it happens and even then it isn't conclusive its just what happened on the day.

The refuse because they know that they will loose, but still sit back and claim we exept any one, and we will fight with no rules.

They don't know they will lose just as you don't know emin would win. Have you got eveidence of the challenges made, correspondance between gracies and the challengers and a statement where the gracies say they will fight anyone with no rules? Its all very inconclusive at the moment.

They are liars, and liars need to be exposed by martial arts masters who really do fight with no rules.

To expose them you need conclusive evidence not just hearsay, as far as i know you might just have a dislike for them for a million and one other reasons or even the information you have is from lies. If you are seriously interested in outing and exposing them then i think you could go about it in a better way.

For me, its just that they claim something that isnt true, I have more respect for fighters who dont compete because they dont believe in it rather than the ones who make false claims. That is my only issue.

for me i need to have evidence before i believe either their claims or yours are true. If you really do care about this then prove it because it really does seem to be degenerating to petty online bitchiness. I would love to read a well researched and and conclusive account that dispells any myth rather than further perpetuating myth.

 

[DeLamar.J]

No one can prove a damn thing either way.

 

[bcbernam777]

No one can prove a damn thing either way.

Thats what i love about facts, you can make them prove whatever you want

 

[ed-swckf]

No one can prove a damn thing either way.

If its all unproven how can you a) make the accusations you have and b) even begin to entertain the accusations others have made. Of course if you really wanted to you could prove things, it would take a lot of work and i don't think anyone really cares that much as most of this is just gossip.

 

[monji112000]

1. Most people don't care.
2. Time should be spent training, more than this BS topic.
3. Having a open challenge isn't something new, or something that exciting.
From what I read and have been told its a very common thing. I have heard many first hand, and second hand recounts. I know of one book that talks about a few first hand accounts by a Disciple of Ip man.

Its all just gossip.. anyway

Both are very good Martial arts. The Gracie family have done allot for Martial arts as a whole.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Thats what i love about facts, you can make them prove whatever you want

Yea, facts. Like what you read or see on the news. Its a fact, it must be true.

 

[Si-Je]

Si-Je:
-What would have happened if he challenged Mike Tyson for the IBF HW title when he held it? He’d be told to competed, win and work his way up to the “champion” as well. No?

why would he want to? lol! I think you've missed the point of the Gracie and Emin conflict. Besides, he'd just get his ear bit off!

-Glad that you have trust in your husband. To bad you feel that way about other male teachers. But I wonder if it’s their prejudices or yours that’d keep you from learning the “right” way??

My teachers in the past have been pretty good when it came to martial arts, but really bad when it came to basic morals. Plus, the way a man will fight will differ from the way a woman or a smaller person needs to fight. My past styles were taught by big strong men who depend on strength and their large size. So, I've had to alter the techniques so they would work for me. Example. Japanese Ju-Jitsu throwing/judo. these guys taught me technique using almost all back and arm strength. I had to figure out the proper technique to throw these 200 lbs guys on my own through trial and error. And the error was the way they were teaching. For again, my husband has rank in Judo and confirms this, and was upset I had to figure out the proper techniques by myself. Plus, the federation was dirty, and so were the senior black belts. It happens, believe it.

-I love this excuse. Have you ever seen or even heard of someone getting jumped by one of the Gracie’s “gang”? Pathetic excuse. You can and could put a limit on the people present or if you’re an accomplished martial artist like Emin you could bring your own students. On a side note what do you think all those bystanders would do to your husband at the tournament?

He's already fought these types of GJJ people, friend. no big deal. As for the Gracie "gang", yes, I have heard of these GJJ people "jumping" folks at their very own schools. They bully, insult, and try to goad people to fight. It's really childish. And as for the "bystanders" at this tournament, they were all "masters" of their art, black belts under the others guy system. Not exactly bystanders. It was a "masters tournament" remember? This guy has been trying to get us to join his federation for two years. He wants 20% of our monthly profits from teaching WC, he's a TKD instructor, what would we do that for? Just because he's a "grand master" of whatever? Since we won't join him, he's done everything in is peudo power to cause us trouble with the school and in our personal lives. He has many schools in our area, and we're not sure why he wants us to joing so bad. The guy is a hustler, and trying to muscle in on our school, style, and family business. So what do I think he'd actually DO if he went to the tournament? I'm not sure, but it will be something I couldn't quite forsee, I don't think like this guy does. He's dishonest, money motivated, and has a huge head (ego), and I don't trust him at all.
I just used that as an example of what not to get involved in if your smart. If you know someone's trying to use you for reputation, money or whatever gain. Like Emin, he wanted more equal ground. And we will have it soon to deal with this issue, if it doesn't take care of itself on it's own.

Lol! I don’t believe anyone here stated grappling was “always good.” I think your comment for the video should be that “grappling BADLY isn’t always a good idea” (actually it never is). If you want to use video to demonstrate WT’s or WC’s effectiveness maybe look to the Emin/W.Cheung video. At least there you have two know entities in a fight and not a WT guy and a “grappler” whose skill sets are unknown. Or would you say Emin is also a better grappler than those MMA or BJJ types who “

shrug off the thought of being hit repeatedly in the head face, and neck.” At least your not making assumptions about those MMA/BJJ types.

I'll try to hit on a couple of points here. Emin was a Turkish wrestler at the time of the Cheung fight. people keep refering to this fight as a demonstration of his "grappling skill". It is in a way, but Turkish wrestling is NOT "grappling" so to compare it to such is ignorance. He took Chueng to the ground because he knew that was his weakness, plain and simple. As for Turkish wrestling, I know nothing about that art, and neither does anyone elese here that I've seen, or they haven't spoken up. so how can anyone judge? don't judge things you cannot understand. simple.
If a video of a pit fight isn't good enough for you to see the effectiveness of WT then, You seem to base alot of your opinions on the outcomes of UFC fights. sad. The guys that were claiming to be VT or WT in the early UFC years I really don't care about or am very impressed. I never saw them use a hint of Wing Chun in their fights. Just like any other art, their are quality schools and weak schools.
Plus, if that guy actually got the WT fighter to the ground in that pit fight the crowd would have just stomped his head most likely like they did when he was taken to the ground. Grappling, is it EVER a really good idea in the street? That is the true question.

-Huh? What does a MMA fighter losing to another MMA fighter have to do with this? Has Matt Hughes been training with Emin? Is that how Emin decided to get the Gracies? LOL!!!

It proves my point that no matter how many times they lose, people still think the Gracies are the "best". Royce has lost a couple of times before that fight. His fighters have been beaten on many occasions. But, you never see video of those fights. No, darlin' they only post videos where they win. It's all propoganda to me, media blather and playing to the masses to get what they want. money. I choose not to play those games, and make others that do play them wealthy, neither does Emin. I just find it very unfortunate that so many wish to try to fight this way, especially women. MMA for women is really not a great idea. Unless they want to train and get fit like a professional boxer and compete in the sport. Or smaller people for that matter. (which I happen to be both, lol! at 5'5 112lbs.) It's been my experience that I need pure technique, speed, timing, and adaptablity. Not strength, brute force, and over confidence in techniques that "should" work for me because they work for other big strong men who train all day everyday, have the best personal trainers money can buy, the best available diet, and who are purse fighters for a living. Reality check. That's not me, or my even possible lifestyle, so why try to emulate it in my training?

 

[Si-Je]

I really think it is odd and a little sad that people can't let these things go in the past. the chueng fight and the gracie thing.
Both happened over ten years ago, and people are still buzzing about them, like any of us know what REALLY happened.
Origionally, Yip man Sifu wanted to know why Emin left EWTO and these two incidents get brought up. Neither had anything to do with it.
My hubbie was a senior student of Emins right before the split with EWTO, and he knows most of what really went on with the split, and the gracies too. Two totally different issues.
The internet is very powerful tool, for communication, or information. But, it also causes consequences. Positive and Negative. I like these forums because it gives me insight to peoples thoughts, ideas, and opinions.
But, this is what helped to prompt Emin to challenge the Gracies. Forums and magazine threats and challenges, gossip, and speculation. He just wanted to "clear the air", but found that that wasn't going to work.
Read the letters that they wrote to each other that was posted earlier. very enlightening, if their real. lol! Check your sources, just to be sure.
As for me and mine. We really aren't that affected by all this. We're independent of any federation, and going to stay so for these very reasons. We teach, we train, we help kids, friends, family, and are doing well outside of the "lineage" deal or federated umbrella. We like it out here. It allows us to be objective, and to not take sides so much without checking facts and allows us to hear both sides in a more objective manner. Yes, I have my opinions on these matters, but their MINE. Developed by me, an not soley based on my teachers, school, lineage, or whatever.

 

[Journeyman]

I think part of the problem was that the Cheung incident gave people the idea that Boztepe was someone who could be goaded into confrontations. There's not only the Cheung and Gracie situations; there's also an incident involving Chris Dolman(who supposedly challenged Boztepe at a seminar Boztepe was giving--the fight didn't happen, but once again what happened at the seminar is disputed) and a problem between Boztepe and Bas Rutten(which apparently was instigated by a martial arts writer telling them that each had been going around making challenges about the other--Boztepe and Rutten seem to have settled that amicably.) The internet feeds these things, and often misinformation amplifies the problem. Speaking of misinformation, I've seen comments on other websites that the video Si-Je posted is from the movie 'Pit Fighter'. It's not. I've seen 'Pit Fighter' and while the Wing Chun guy in the video bears a slight resemblance to the lead actor, there's nothing even vaguely like that video in the movie.

 

[Si-Je]

no, no. I never said it was from a movie. It's from a website that posts many street fights and candid camra stuff, from a "real" pit fight.
I've never even heard of this "pit fighter" movie.
I just said it was a clip of a guy "in" a real pit fight.
goodness.